NBP: National Broadband Plan Announced

rob808

clohamon wrote: »

Timmy's probably done the numbers. There's only 3 FG and Michael Lowry who would definitely support the Minister. He can probably get enough of them to agree to a damaging report and then ask that it gets debated in the Dáil before the recess. Who knows what FF leadership would do then.
https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/committees/32/communications-climate-action-and-environment/membership/

I wish that Timmy o tool feck off.

westyIrl

cregmon wrote: »

The network will cover every town and city in Ireland with a population of more than 1,000 residents.

A bit OT but it will be interesting to see what the MANS are worth after Eir are finished with this.

Jim

Marlow

celticbhoy27 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/philipbromwell/status/1128968246315671552?s=19

That one is funny as hell. Airwire have covered that area for years .. Westnet may also have some coverage. And most of Hollymount, Co. Mayo has also been FTTH enabled under OpenEIR 300k. So broadband is NOT an issue in the area .. if you check !

Ten Pin wrote: »

Is there not a minimum age requirement of 13 to use twitter?

I would be more concerned about politicians exploiting children for their electoral campaign spread false information.

/M

Pique

What's the deal with Frank McCourt being involved? How is that a cause for "concern" as part of the inquiry?

The Cush

The Cush wrote: »

First meeting of the Committee on the NBP will be with the Secretary General of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, Robert Watt. Expected to complete in 8 weeks.

We haven't seen the terms of reference for the committee yet. We know they will investigate the €5bn national broadband plan will also look at the best way to roll out a high-speed network to rural Ireland. The plan is to take evidence for 6 weeks and 2 weeks to prepare the report.

The committee has invited Robert Watt and officials from DPER to appear next Wednesday, two days before polling day. This is the Dept who oppose the government's broadband plan. By inviting Robert Watt this close to election day, does anyone see this as an effort by the committee to muddy the waters so to speak? Reminds me of the PAC's investigation into Áras expenses before the Presidential vote.

Timmy Dooley has said he wants

more analysis of Granahan McCourt’s limited €220m equity investment in the plan as against the taxpayers’ contribution of €3bn. Mr Dooley also wants answers as to the role played by Frank McCourt, a brother of the principal investor, in the bid.

Furthermore, the TD wants answers as to why consultants KPMG advised that a gap-funded model was the best option for the project.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/broadband-investigation-will-also-look-at-how-best-to-roll-out-rural-network-924818.html

Will they invite the ESB or SIRO? They were invited by the PAC back in Nov/Dec for the Feb discussion, but declined the invitation. I don't think they have engaged since they withdrew from the NBP process. It will be disappointing for Timmy if they don't engage.

The PAC was to publish their report into the NBP and national broadband availability this week but delayed because of the cabinet announcement last week, I wonder if it'll be delayed further now, until the Communications committee complete their investigation?

We may not see either of these reports until July, at which point they'll all be off on their summer holidays.

noodler

Muddy the waters?

I'd see it as the committee getting advice from the department tasked with managing expenditure.

The Cush

noodler wrote: »

I'd see it as the committee getting advice from the department tasked with managing expenditure.

Of course, but 2 days before polling day. As I said above, I see parallels with the PAC's Áras investigation.

noodler

The Cush wrote: »

Of course, but 2 days before polling day. As I said above, I see parallels with the PAC's Áras investigation.

Sorry, you mean like the opposition casting doubt on the Gov's big election play? (NBP)

The Cush

noodler wrote: »

Sorry, you mean like the opposition casting doubt on the Gov's big election play? (NBP)

Just as they cast doubt on the Áras expenses, and post election ... tumbleweed.

Marlow

noodler wrote: »

Sorry, you mean like the opposition casting doubt on the Gov's big election play? (NBP)

The play on NBP is already backfiring with fictional places in Ireland not having broadband. The truth will come out.

/M

Pique

Marlow wrote:

The play on NBP is already backfiring with fictional places in Ireland not having broadband. The truth will come out.

You and navi seem to be 2 of the most knowledgeable technically on the networking realities of what is possible as far as I can tell on this thread. I admit to not being able to follow a lot of what you guys say

I am curious therefore about this and other cryptic posts you have both made about the plan.

Is it the FTTH aspect, the financial aspect, the WISP exclusion, possible brown envelopes, or something else that has you or he (as I interpret it, apologies if I have taken you up wrong) not all that enthusiastic about the NBP as it stands?

I hope to hell we get it. The cost is worth it. Even averaging the cost per premises and adding that to a subscription package would be totally worth it and covers the govt investment.

Why the apparent pessimism?

Marlow

Pique wrote: »

Why the apparent pessimism?

Have a read at this tweet by TD Sean Fleming ... it says A LOT: https://twitter.com/SeanFlemingTD/status/1127570399435337729

Especially coming from a TD.

/M

The Cush

Last week Sinn Fein indicated they would table a Dáil motion this week for the ESB to rollout the NBP, I see they will now table the motion on June 11 during its private members’ time.

This motion will call for an immediate study to examine the best model for delivery of a new broadband plan through the ESB to every home, farm and business in rural Ireland. It will also call for the infrastructure to remain in public ownership.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/broadband-investigation-will-also-look-at-how-best-to-roll-out-rural-network-924818.html

Text of the motion

Dáil Éireann recognises that:

- The provision of high-speed broadband to rural Ireland is essential and must be delivered without further delay;
- The National Broadband Plan procurement process pursued by Government has failed, and the current single bidder does not provide value for money to the tax payer;
- The current deal being supported by Government would involve a massive transfer of public money into private hands with the private bidder assuming little risk, and with infrastructure, paid for by the taxpayer, in private ownership;
- There are serious concerns regarding the capacity of the current bidder to deliver the project.

Furthermore, Dáil Éireann recognises that the ESB:

- Is a commercial semi-state company with a strong track record of delivering important infrastructural projects across the state;
- Has extensive pre-existing infrastructure of poles and cables across the island;
- Has proven capacity to deliver and manage broadband infrastructure.

Therefore, Dáil Éireann calls for:

- The current National Broadband Plan to be scrapped;
- An immediate, short and sharp study to be undertaken to examine the best model for delivery of a new National Broadband Plan through the ESB to every home, farm and business in rural Ireland;
- The ESB network to be used to deliver to deliver this new National Broadband Plan;
- The infrastructure to remain in public ownership

https://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/53794

Marlow

They wouldn't have to bring the infrastructure to every premise .. just into the villages and areas would be fine.

But the key thing there: the infrastructure to stay in public ownership .... that is ... matter of fact .. not a bad thing.

/M

The Cush

Marlow wrote: »

Have a read at this tweet by TD Sean Fleming ... it says A LOT

It does indeed, a TD whose party could pull the plug on the whole process by withdrawing from the confidence and supply agreement with the government but those damn polls ...

Marlow

The Cush wrote: »

It does indeed, a TD whose party could pull the plug on the whole process by withdrawing from the confidence and supply agreement with the government but those damn polls ...

Timmy, Eamon and a few of the independents like Michael Fitzmaurice and Ming wouldn't be in favour of that sort of commercial windfall either. Not the way it has been procured.

/M

tsue921i8wljb3

Pique wrote: »

You and navi seem to be 2 of the most knowledgeable technically on the networking realities of what is possible as far as I can tell on this thread. I admit to not being able to follow a lot of what you guys say

I am curious therefore about this and other cryptic posts you have both made about the plan.

Is it the FTTH aspect, the financial aspect, the WISP exclusion, possible brown envelopes, or something else that has you or he (as I interpret it, apologies if I have taken you up wrong) not all that enthusiastic about the NBP as it stands?

I hope to hell we get it. The cost is worth it. Even averaging the cost per premises and adding that to a subscription package would be totally worth it and covers the govt investment.

Why the apparent pessimism?

I'm not sure what cryptic posts I have made. To be clear I think NBI are the worst of the three bidders that remained. I have issues with the possible duplication of cabling that NBI might have to deploy to reach intervention areas, wasting time and money.

I think the gap funding model was proposed because eir and the ESB were in the process. They both left and the model could not be changed.

I appreciate how difficult it is trying to organise state subsidy where commercial interests are at play as can be seen with eir removing 330000 premises. However I realise that this is the only deal on the table and without wasting several more years nothing better will come along. Therefore I think the contract should be signed and work started as soon as possible.

The Cush

Marlow wrote: »

Timmy, Eamon and a few of the independents like Michael Fitzmaurice and Ming wouldn't be in favour of that sort of commercial windfall either. Not the way it has been procured.

None of these TDs can push that nuclear button, that is solely in the "gift" of FF.

Marlow

The Cush wrote: »

None of these TDs can push that nuclear button, that is solely in the "gift" of FF.

Timmy and Eamon are FF.

/M

The Cush

Marlow wrote: »

Timmy and Eamon are FF.

I was thinking of Eamon Ryan, surnames are important when other opposition TDs have the same first name. Did you listen to Éamon Ó Cuív's contribution to the committee earlier this week, definitely not singing off the same hymn sheet as other party colleagues in public, while his party colleagues maybe thinking similar in private as we read earlier today.

Marlow

The Cush wrote: »

I was thinking of Eamon Ryan, surnames are important when other opposition TDs have the same first name. Did you listen to Eamon O Cuiv's contribution to the committee earlier this week, definitely not singing off the same hymn sheet as other party colleagues in public, while his party colleagues maybe thinking similar in private as we read earlier today.

Yes .. it is a mixed bag of feelings, but I have some more direct interaction. And apologies for not adding surnames, but .. i am imperative to the wescht and I don't always state the obvious

/M

BarryM

Given the general 'funk' of our gov wrt EU, and subsidy, I'd say they have sorted out the EU on the proposed contract.

Many other member states have subsidised bb rollout.

Anyway, many other member states go ahead with doubtful investments and wait until the EU complains, later.

This whole thing is a political stroke, there is no real indication of when shovels will be in the ground and money in the budget.

However there will be a GE in the next 18 months...

BarryM

Here is an interesting tweet.....

sean keane

@sean_ocathain
·
May 8


Do you find it ‘peculiar’ Michael that Watt,having overseen so many public sec reform clusterf**ks over last 8 yrs suddenly finds his voice week he finds out he’s been overlooked for Central Bank Gov for a 2nd time...nothing like a scorned Senior Civil Servant for begrudgery

Grab All Association

https://twitter.com/glkcreative/status/1129002038703120385?s=21

Everyone commenting is excited but just wait until Verizon oversubscribe their network. these days though they use a SIM card for 4G/5Gdata services. Kind of a hybrid network. Still CDMA for 3G and calling.

KOR101

http://cf.broadsheet.ie/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/idm-8.jpg

Headshot

KOR101 wrote: »

http://cf.broadsheet.ie/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/idm-8.jpg

The Daily Mail Poll


lol come on.....

The Cush

Headshot wrote: »

The Daily Mail Poll


lol come on.....

What were the results of the polls on the €5bn Metro North project, the Luas, the DART, etc. etc.?

When it comes to spending tax payers money on these big projects a poll is always going to swing one way.

Pique

If the Daily Mail claimed that water was wet, I'd have to double check.

celticbhoy27

Headshot wrote: »

The Daily Mail Poll


lol come on.....

Only 51 percent against. That's bloody positive.

listermint

Pique wrote: »

You and navi seem to be 2 of the most knowledgeable technically on the networking realities of what is possible as far as I can tell on this thread. I admit to not being able to follow a lot of what you guys say

I am curious therefore about this and other cryptic posts you have both made about the plan.

Is it the FTTH aspect, the financial aspect, the WISP exclusion, possible brown envelopes, or something else that has you or he (as I interpret it, apologies if I have taken you up wrong) not all that enthusiastic about the NBP as it stands?

I hope to hell we get it. The cost is worth it. Even averaging the cost per premises and adding that to a subscription package would be totally worth it and covers the govt investment.

Why the apparent pessimism?

There are vested interests in this thread, Always be fully aware of that. Understand why people would be annoyed for more people to have more options and a better quality of service for similar / less cost.

Then you will have your answer as to why people play a tune on the NBP

Ultimanemo

Headshot wrote: »

The Daily Mail Poll


lol come on.....

Many people didn't vote because their Internet speed is not good enough for them to stay online for long periods

Gary kk

I guess if it's was the famers journal the poll would of been the other way

Marlow

listermint wrote: »

Always be fully aware of that. Understand why people would be annoyed for more people to have more options and a better quality of service for similar / less cost

At the pricing that has been quoted for the NBP, it will be a lot more expensive than existing fibre and other broadband solutions. That is for sure.

I can't see, how you come to the conclusion of similar or less cost.

Even if the 30 EUR wholesale that was stated is including VAT, that makes it 24.39. That's more expensive than both OpenEIR and SIRO wholesale. And it is still unknown what additional cost the providers that will sell the product on will be hit for, before they bring it to Belfast, Cork or Dublin to meet their upstream.

So, it is safe to assume, that NBI/NBP connections will cost a good bit extra compared to anything else.

Having said that, the NBP is not designed to bring a better quality service or competition into the NBP areas. It is designed to bring a service into those areas, that can't get those recommended speeds. A target, that has been completely mismanaged (again ... already happened with the NBS). So ... that part of it is waste of tax money. Your money, too. A per connection subsidy would have been a better plan. And when they start compensating NBI for premises that get taken out after the contract is signed because another provider covers them with a decent service, then it's borderline tax fraud.

So, when you say "to have more options and a better quality of service for similar / less cost", then you've got the wrong idea of the NBP. It is supposed to bring service to those who have no options or less than 30 Mbit/s anyhow. With an aim of 30 Mbit/s now and 100 Mbit/s by 2025. That is the outlined requirement. What gets negotiated beyond that is a different matter.

/M

Gary kk

Marlow wrote: »

At the pricing that has been quoted for the NBP, it will be a lot more expensive than existing fibre and other broadband solutions. That is for sure.

I can't see, how you come to the conclusion of similar or less cost.

Even if the 30 EUR wholesale that was stated is including VAT, that makes it 24.39. That's more expensive than both OpenEIR and SIRO wholesale. And it is still unknown what additional cost the providers that will sell the product on will be hit for, before they bring it to Belfast, Cork or Dublin to meet their upstream.

So, it is safe to assume, that NBI/NBP connections will cost a good bit extra compared to anything else.

Having said that, the NBP is not designed to bring a better quality service or competition into the NBP areas. It is designed to bring a service into those areas, that can't get those recommended speeds. A target, that has been completely mismanaged (again ... already happened with the NBS). So ... that part of it is waste of tax money. Your money, too. A per connection subsidy would have been a better plan. And when they start compensating NBI for premises that get taken out after the contract is signed because another provider covers them with a decent service, then it's borderline tax fraud.

So, when you say "to have more options and a better quality of service for similar / less cost", then you've got the wrong idea of the NBP. It is supposed to bring service to those who have no options or less than 30 Mbit/s anyhow. With an aim of 30 Mbit/s now and 100 Mbit/s by 2025. That is the outlined requirement. What gets negotiated beyond that is a different matter.

/M

I thought they upped the min Mbit/s

Marlow

Gary kk wrote: »

I thought they upped the min Mbit/s

So you did not read, what i wrote. The tender called for 30 Mbit/s with a requirement to scale to 100 Mbit/s by 2025.

NBI submitted an offer starting out at 150, going to 500 in a few years. But that has nothing to do with the tender requirements.

The minimum requirement is STILL what the tender set out. Because if it wasn't then every VDSL served line in the country would now be deemed NBP area. That is roughly 1.7M premises. Even the ones at 100M.

Also quoting my whole post seems a bit over the top.

/M

listermint

Marlow wrote: »

So you did not read, what i wrote. The tender called for 30 Mbit/s with a requirement to scale to 100 Mbit/s by 2025.

NBI submitted an offer starting out at 150, going to 500 in a few years. But that has nothing to do with the tender requirements.

The minimum requirement is STILL what the tender set out. Because if it wasn't then every VDSL served line in the country would now be deemed NBP area. That is roughly 1.7M premises. Even the ones at 100M.

Also quoting my whole post seems a bit over the top.

/M

So basically your saying that it will bring service to people that currently cannot get serviced well by existing private providers.

Why would you be so annoyed by that if for example those people were already getting a happy quality service from these existing private providers.

Or is it your assertion that people should be left without good quality broadband in 2019 to suit some small localised providers balance book ?


Fraud you say?


I call the service and advertising of some services in this country fraud. And no that's no reflection on anyone in this thread before you go off on one.

Marlow

listermint wrote: »

So basically your saying that it will bring service to people that currently cannot get serviced well by existing private providers.

Why would you be so annoyed by that if for example those people were already getting a happy quality service from these existing private providers.

Or is it your assertion that people should be left without good quality broadband in 2019 to suit some small localised providers balance book ?

So you are saying, it is ok to use tax money to take away business and create competition using said money to a localized provider, even if this provider is provinding a service within the standards that were outlined by the department ? With a chance of crippling such a provider to the point of having to shut the doors ?

The NBS was even worse in those regards, because it literally underbid said providers. The problem was just that what the NBS delivered was so sh!te, that it did not succeed in killing of said local businesses.

listermint wrote: »

Fraud you say?


I call the service and advertising of some services in this country fraud. And no that's no reflection on anyone in this thread before you go off on one.

That is not fraud. It is a matter for Comreg as the regulator and the ASAI for advertising. It is a complete different problem. And it should have been taken care of before even looking at the NBP.

And it is also a problem for those providers who actually provide a good service, because they get tarnished with the same brush in an overall picture.

/M

listermint

Marlow wrote: »

So you are saying, it is ok to use tax money to take away business and create competition using said money to a localized provider, even if this provider is provinding a service within the standards that were outlined by the department ? With a chance of crippling such a provider to the point of having to shut the doors ?

The NBS was even worse in those regards, because it literally underbid said providers. The problem was just that what the NBS delivered was so sh!te, that it did not succeed in killing of said local businesses.



That is not fraud. It is a matter for Comreg as the regulator and the ASAI for advertising. It is a complete different problem. And it should have been taken care of before even looking at the NBP.

And it is also a problem for those providers who actually provide a good service, because they get tarnished with the same brush in an overall picture.

/M

Yes I am saying exactly that.

Small businesses shouldn't be able to hold back infrastructure such as this which is vital.

Especially when they will be unable to provide the service nor scale it whatsoever to the levels required to future proof it.

This is national infrastructure.

We don't have Ted's driveways out building our road network and we don't have Paul's sparks out building our electricity backbones.

Providers seen this coming for years. To pretend that this infrastructure was never going to get to the levels of economic importance was to shout in the face of facts.


And it's fraudulent to claim speeds that you can't consistently deliver . Hiding behind smalls Ts and C's is dishonest.

Marlow

listermint wrote: »

Yes I am saying exactly that.

Small businesses shouldn't be able to hold back infrastructure such as this which is vital.

Especially when they will be unable to provide the service nor scale it whatsoever to the levels required to future proof it.

Hah. You got that one way wrong. The one that is holding national infrastructure and scalability back is the government by attacking this problem from the wrong end of the stick. Every single time.

- first of all by always playing into the hands of the big players, but never really having them raise much of the funding themselves.
- secondly by always aiming at the eyeball side of the problem. Because that is all what this is about: winning votes. If the focus was put on getting an infrastructure network, which is needed much more than the last mile, then the voters would not see that happening on the road down from them, so it does not generate votes.

And that is the two things that the NBP is aimed at. Nothing else.

listermint wrote: »

And it's fraudulent to claim speeds that you can't consistently deliver . Hiding behind smalls Ts and C's is dishonest.

Again. That is a matter for Comreg and the ASAI. And if they do not have the powers to deal with that, then the government needs to give them the powers. But again .. that won't be as visible, so does not create votes.

The NBP and potential competition created by the NBP will not fix this. Ever. If you think it will, then you live in a dream world.

/M

ED E

One thing the Govt could do easily and successfully is disband the ASAI which is like asking a toddler to babysit itself and form a real regulator.

Aligns

"Your premises is in an area that is not considered commercial by operators. This area will be covered under the State Intervention of the National Broadband Plan."

Same status as it's been for too long. Wonder how long till they do something.

listermint

Here it is short and simple.

Wireless operators who have for the main and majority of customers offered little but over prescribed services with data caps and heavily degraded speeds multiple points throughout the day are now no longer acceptable.

They can't keep up they can't offer a service that matches the world we are in today.

So fibre is coming in to resolve that .

But I'm sure small wireless providers would love to keep the status quo and have various localised providers have fibre up to a point so they can continue to offer a sub par service which again has a shorter life than fibre.


Frankly I don't care. This is important infrastructure and should be looked at as such and not nibbling around the edges to suit small self interests. Because that's all it is.

Anteayer

Grab All Association wrote: »

https://twitter.com/glkcreative/status/1129002038703120385?s=21

Everyone commenting is excited but just wait until Verizon oversubscribe their network. these days though they use a SIM card for 4G/5Gdata services. Kind of a hybrid network. Still CDMA for 3G and calling.

I got 160+ Mbits on 3 a few times when new cells launched. It's all about how busy things get. All of those radio networks fly along when there's about 2 users and you still need fibre everywhere to host all the 5G cells and microcells.

Otherwise it's a bit like buying a TGV/Bullet Train but no tracks or wires.

CptMackey

How frustrating this whole thing is. My neighbour just got fibre today. And I cant because I'm in the intervention area.
Literally 10m next to me.

What kind of wait are we looking at? 2years or longer ?

Gary kk

Marlow wrote: »

Also quoting my whole post seems a bit over the top.

/M

Yeah sorry I was in the rush hope you didn't read all again.

celticbhoy27

CptMackey wrote: »

How frustrating this whole thing is. My neighbour just got fibre today. And I cant because I'm in the intervention area.
Literally 10m next to me.

What kind of wait are we looking at? 2years or longer ?

Seriously? Wow thought I was hard done by 500 metres from neighbours who have it. 10metres just taking the piss. Must be something that can be done about that?

ED E

CptMackey wrote: »

How frustrating this whole thing is. My neighbour just got fibre today. And I cant because I'm in the intervention area.
Literally 10m next to me.

What kind of wait are we looking at? 2years or longer ?

celticbhoy27 wrote: »

Seriously? Wow thought I was hard done by 500 metres from neighbours who have it. 10metres just taking the piss. Must be something that can be done about that?

Bring your neighbour a sixpack. Offer to share his connection.

1. Use nanostations to connect the two buildings
2. Yes its against the rules, dont tell the ISPs and they wont know.
3. If they're worried about speed then they can upgrade from 150 to 300, still only pay half and you could limit yourself to 100Mb so they still get 200Mb.

irishfeen

CptMackey wrote: »

How frustrating this whole thing is. My neighbour just got fibre today. And I cant because I'm in the intervention area.
Literally 10m next to me.

What kind of wait are we looking at? 2years or longer ?

If it’s genuinely only 10m, ring Vodafone and say you are right alongside the fibre and they will connect you up, the exact same situation occurred in my local village and Vodafone had no problem in connecting up his house while openEir would not do it under any circumstances.

Ultimanemo

irishfeen wrote: »

If it’s genuinely only 10m, ring Vodafone and say you are right alongside the fibre and they will connect you up, the exact same situation occurred in my local village and Vodafone had no problem in connecting up his house while openEir would not do it under any circumstances.

Doesn't he need a vacant place in the DP box ?.

Marlow

irishfeen wrote: »

If it’s genuinely only 10m, ring Vodafone and say you are right alongside the fibre and they will connect you up, the exact same situation occurred in my local village and Vodafone had no problem in connecting up his house while openEir would not do it under any circumstances.

Doesn't quite work that way. But 10m is a bit of a p*** take alright.

The question is: where is the DP. Because if the neighbor already is stretched to the max of 4-6 spans to get it and it takes another 1 or 2 spans for this house, then that's the reason.

/M