NBP: National Broadband Plan Announced

fergus1001

The Cush wrote:

He wants committee now so it can sit through the summer to ensure the deal isn’t “strangled at birth by political cowards and civil service laggards.â€

He has my vote

Mortelaro

You can add Mick Wallace to the I don't know what I'm talking about or give a fcuk about the national broadband plan so let's scrap it brigade

The Cush

The Cush wrote: »

First meeting of the Committee on the NBP will be with the Secretary General of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, Robert Watt. Expected to complete in 8 weeks.

Two sessions of the Communications Committee are scheduled for this Wed, 09.30 and 14.30, no details of participants but Robert Watt and his Dept officials were expected to attend.

Wed, 22 May 2019

09.30 Joint Committee on Communications, Climate Action and Environment
CR4, LH 2000

An investigation to examine the National Broadband Plan process thus far and how best to proceed and the best means to roll out rural broadband



14.30 Joint Committee on Communications, Climate Action and Environment
CR4, LH 2000

An investigation to examine the National Broadband Plan process thus far and how best to proceed and the best means to roll out rural broadband

In the Dáil tomorrow afternoon, PQs Min. for Communications

15.47 Parliamentary Questions: Oral - Minister for Communications, Climate Action and Environment

The Cush

The Cush wrote: »

Two sessions of the Communications Committee are scheduled for this Wed, 09.30 and 14.30, no details of participants but Robert Watt and his Dept officials were expected to attend.

Things not going well for the committee so far, Robert Watt hasn't responded to the Committee's invite.

The Department of Public Expenditure's top civil servant has yet to say whether he will appear before Wednesday's Oireachtas committee's broadband investigation.

The communications committee requested secretary-general Robert Watt's attendance after he raised serious concerns about the cost of the National Broadband Plan.
...
Mr Watt, is one of the first witnesses TDs and senators want to question about the project when they gather for a meeting on Wednesday.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/broadband-concerns-senior-department-official-keeps-communications-committee-waiting-925580.html

The Cush

Top official set to snub committee on broadband

The Department of Public Expenditure’s top civil servant looks set to snub an Oireachtas broadband investigation until after the local elections.
...
Mr Watt has been asked to come before the committee tomorrow, but has yet to respond to the invitation. A spokesperson said Mr Watt will appear before a committee.

“Engagement is under way with the Oireachtas to determine which one. Minister [Paschal] Donohoe will be before the budget oversight committee next Tuesday,” said the spokesperson.

Min. Paschal Donohoe will be before the Committee on Budgetary Oversight next Tuesday, maybe his Dept. Sec. General Robert Watt will attend also?

This has happened previously, Robert Watt & the NCH vs. Oireachtas Committees

Mr Watt refused to appear before a number of Oireachtas committees earlier this year, including the health committee to discuss the overspend at the National Children’s Hospital.

Mr Watt did come before the public accounts committee to answer questions on the spiralling costs of the hospital but was accused of “playing games” with Oireachtas committees by Sinn Féin’s Pearse Doherty.

Health committee chairman Michael Harty said the secretary general had shown “disrespect” by refusing to come before them.

Mr Watt said it would have been “impractical” for him to appear before the health committee and said officials from individual departments are responsible to relevant committees.

BarryM

Mortelaro wrote: »

NBI will be paying VAT on all its construction materials at 23% and at 13:5% on its sub contracts

If my recollection of the way VAT works is correct, NBI, as a VAT registered entity, will deduct 'inputs' VAT from 'outputs (sales) VAT when making their returns.

VAT payments to the revenue are nett. Marlow's explanation clearly showed that.

AFAICS, the NBP case will be normal for VAT, i.e. inputs and outputs will be calculated to include the NBP contribution. The only variable will be, again afaics, is that the NBP contribution will be 'late' not at the same two month VAT return period as NBI's income from Internet distributors?

Would that be right?

Marlow

Mortelaro wrote: »

NBI will be paying VAT on all its construction materials at 23% and at 13:5% on its sub contracts

That depends entirely, how they register it. In the construction trade, you can get it registered, so that only the last entity (the provider) actually pays the VAT and everything up until that point is ex VAT. But even the provider claims the VAT back again vs. their VAT outgoings.

I know, that SIRO works like that. Just for installations. Not for subs.

Otherwise, VAT income would always be deducated from VAT outgoings as jobs and material are invoiced for.

So the whole thinking, that VAT will return a whole lot here is wishful thinking. It's not.

VAT essentially only applies to the end-user. That's it.

/M

Mortelaro

Marlow wrote: »

That depends entirely, how they register it. In the construction trade, you can get it registered, so that only the last entity (the provider) actually pays the VAT and everything up until that point is ex VAT. But even the provider claims the VAT back again vs. their VAT outgoings.

I know, that SIRO works like that. Just for installations. Not for subs.

Otherwise, VAT income would always be deducated from VAT outgoings as jobs and material are invoiced for.

So the whole thinking, that VAT will return a whole lot here is wishful thinking. It's not.

VAT essentially only applies to the end-user. That's it.

/M

Correct, the vat can be claimed back by NBI if they are vat registered
Of course the more VAT they reclaim, the larger their profit or the smaller their loss
If they're loss making,then what better argument is there for the subsidy
If they're profitable over the longer term,they will be paying tax and their service users the ISP's collecting VAT for the government

This line of argument while interesting is a side debate
The main goal is Fibre versus the alternatives
The ESB isn't one if your adding a few hundred million for land damage on private property farms and inevitable furthering delays
Wireless certainly isn't

The Cush

Mortelaro wrote: »

If they're loss making,then what better argument is there for the subsidy
If they're profitable over the longer term,they will be paying tax and their service users the ISP's collecting VAT for the government

There is also a clawback element in the contract, the State can clawback 60% of the extra profits earned.

Pique

The Cush wrote: »

Mortelaro wrote: »

If they're loss making,then what better argument is there for the subsidy
If they're profitable over the longer term,they will be paying tax and their service users the ISP's collecting VAT for the government

There is also a clawback element in the contract, the State can clawback 60% of the extra profits earned.

I've seen this mentioned before but 60% of what 'extra' profits? As in, how much are NBI allowed to keep before the 60/40 split happens? Does anyone know?

The Cush

Pique wrote: »

I've seen this mentioned before but 60% of what 'extra' profits? As in, how much are NBI allowed to keep before the 60/40 split happens? Does anyone know?

I assume this is detailed in the contract, which we may see at some point in the future, unless redacted.

Johnboy1951

Pique wrote: »

I've seen this mentioned before but 60% of what 'extra' profits? As in, how much are NBI allowed to keep before the 60/40 split happens? Does anyone know?

The Cush wrote: »

I assume this is detailed in the contract, which we may see at some point in the future, unless redacted.

I believe I saw mention of a percentage profit above which the clawback is calculated but I would be only guessing today at what that % is as I do not have clear recollection of what I read.

Johnboy1951

The UK's 5G plans have hit serious problems.
I guess such things happen not only in Ireland.

The rollout of the 5G telecommunications network is being stalled by at least two years over legal wrangling about the control of millions of lampposts, the Guardian can reveal.

Lampposts have suddenly become hot property because 5G requires the installation of transmitters on a dense network of masts taller than a double-decker bus. As a result, mobile network operators (MNOs) are clamouring for access to lampposts and other tall structures in cities, and are threatening legal action to any local authorities or landlords who stand in their way.

and for rural 5G ......

Meanwhile, councils in sparsely populated rural areas have a very different problem as they struggle to generate interest from mobile providers. North Yorkshire, England’s largest council area, has secured a £1m grant to build three masts in remote areas to supplement its network of 50,000 lampposts.

But there has been no interest from mobile operators, according to Don Mackenzie, the council’s lead member for access.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/may/19/revealed-5g-rollout-is-being-stalled-by-rows-over-lampposts

cregmon

I know Dublin City has been looking or perhaps even started with an RF mesh network on lampposts. Not sure what spectrum it uses but I guess its unlicensed. Given power, bandwidth and other constraints, I would also hazard a guess that it should be considered complimentary to and not a replacement of a 5G network for IoT / low-power devices.

https://smartdublin.ie/smartchallenges/iot/

celticbhoy27

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

The UK's 5G plans have hit serious problems.
I guess such things happen not only in Ireland.




and for rural 5G ......



https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/may/19/revealed-5g-rollout-is-being-stalled-by-rows-over-lampposts

If this goes ahead we'l be the envy of every other country. Fiber connected in every area. Amazing

The Cush

This from Fine Gael's Local Election Manifesto

Fine Gael Councillors will work to ensure that Local Authorities:

• Enable street lighting to be used for the purposes of siting small cell technologies, which would greatly improve the speed of 5G rollout.

The 26 GHz band was recently EU harmonised for 5G, could this be a possible band for lampposts?

The Cush

In the Dáil this afternoon, PQs Min. for Communications

Questions 48-98

15.47 Parliamentary Questions: Oral - Minister for Communications, Climate Action and Environment

The Cush

The Cush wrote: »

Things not going well for the committee so far, Robert Watt hasn't responded to the Committee's invite.

Officially confirmed by Timmy on twitter, Robert Watt and his officials won't be attending the committee tomorrow. Timmy blaming government

https://twitter.com/timmydooley/status/1130835974487982081

Only one session of the committee now scheduled for tomorrow, Wed @ 14:30, with Officials from Dept. of Communications

Wed, 22 May 2019

14.30 Joint Committee on Communications, Climate Action and Environment
CR4, LH 2000

An investigation to examine the National Broadband Plan process thus far and how best to proceed and the best means to roll out rural broadband

Officials from Dept. of Communications, Climate Action and Environment

The Cush

The Cush wrote: »

In the Dáil this afternoon, PQs Min. for Communications

Questions 48-98

We learned nothing new today, basically information recycled from the last few weeks. Maybe a little bit on the sub-contracts in reply to Timmy but no date for the signing of the main contract.

No mention of Robert Watt and his non-attendance at the Communications committee tomorrow.

celticbhoy27

The Cush wrote: »

We learned nothing new today, basically information recycled from the last few weeks. Maybe a little bit on the sub-contracts in reply to Timmy but no date for the signing of the main contract.

No mention of Robert Watt and his non-attendance at the Communications committee tomorrow.

Nbi have said contracts should be signed in around ploughing championship in September

rodge123

I reckon a no deal brexit is the only thing that will prevent contacts been signed now and unfortunately that’s a real possibility with the chaos in British politics at the moment.

theguzman

celticbhoy27 wrote: »

Nbi have said contracts should be signed in around ploughing championship in September

rodge123 wrote: »

I reckon a no deal brexit is the only thing that will prevent contacts been signed now and unfortunately that’s a real possibility with the chaos in British politics at the moment.

Hopefully the thing gets signed at the Ploughing, the UK deadline will be after that. Brexit should not be a reason to cancel the NBP, if anything the NBP will stregten the country post-Brexit as Ireland will have the best Telecommunications Infrastructure in the World with the FTTH approach.

The Cush

celticbhoy27 wrote: »

Nbi have said contracts should be signed in around ploughing championship in September

They said the contract could be signed before the ploughing championships in Sept. Lets see how the 1,500 page contract negotiations go between now and then.

The Ploughing Championship would naturally be their target for the signing of the contract.

celticbhoy27

The Cush wrote: »

They said the contract could be signed before the ploughing championships in Sept. Lets see how the 1,500 page contract negotiations go between now and then.

The Ploughing Championship would naturally be their target for the signing of the contract.

Maybe six on one half a dozen on the other, but Hendrick was interviewed by rte 3 days ago in which he said he "expects" the contract to be signed mid semptember

rodge123

The Cush wrote: »

They said the contract could be signed before the ploughing championships in Sept. Lets see how the 1,500 page contract negotiations go between now and then.

The Ploughing Championship would naturally be their target for the signing of the contract.

It wouldn’t shock me if they dragged it out in the same way they have dragged out the announcement of the preferred bidder (3 or 4 months later than originally aimed for) - with the aim of singing contracts early next year shortly before a general election! (Just like this announcement has been conveniently made shortly before local elections).
I hope I’m wrong but I no longer believe a word coming out of their mouths.

They’ve turned me into a cynical auld fart with all the ups and downs over last few years! 😄

The Cush

celticbhoy27 wrote: »

Maybe six on one half a dozen on the other, but Hendrick was interviewed by rte 3 days ago in which he said he "expects" the contract to be signed mid semptember

We all hope so, there is the summer holiday months of July/August in between, the PAC report to be published and the Communications committee investigation and report to be published, likely July for both reports. State-aid notification to the European Commission before contract signing. Timmy, in the Dáil today, pondered what else might fall out of the McCourt woodwork ahead.

And for sure the government isn't going to be rushed into signing a contract just to make the end of Sept deadline.

Richard Bruton: The preferred bidder has been successful in the tendering process but it is only on the satisfactory completion of the contract details that the Government will sign. We will have to be satisfied that all the financial agreements, guarantees and performance bonds are in place. We will have to be satisfied that there are credible subcontractors in place with contracts so we can proceed. There are a number of significantly important steps to protect the taxpayer, which will be finalised during the months I mentioned. They comprise a very important part of any contract. Neither the Deputy nor the House would thank me if I sought to foreshorten them to commence earlier.

It is very important that we nail down these protections for the protection of taxpayers and, indeed, the potential beneficiaries from the system. While I can understand the Deputy is impatient, I have to make sure this is done right.

The Cush

The Cush wrote: »

Officially confirmed by Timmy on twitter, Robert Watt and his officials won't be attending the committee tomorrow. Timmy blaming government

https://twitter.com/timmydooley/status/1130835974487982081

Only one session of the committee now scheduled for tomorrow, Wed @ 14:30, with Officials from Dept. of Communications

Robert Watt may appear before the committee at a future date

The Department of Public Expenditure’s top civil servant has refused to come before an Oireachtas committee investigation into broadband today.

Department secretary general Robert Watt has snubbed the Communications, Climate Action and Environment Committee after being asked to appear to answer questions on the National Broadband Plan. Mr Watt has raised concerns around the cost of the plan with the Government before it decided to press ahead with the €5bn project.

However, the committee was told Mr Watt would be unable to attend the meeting, scheduled for 9.30am today. Members were also told that a date for his appearance is being worked on.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/oireachtas-committee-fails-to-entice-civil-servant-regards-broadband-investigation-925885.html

Dept of Communications officials to appear instead

Other senior officials from the Department of Communications, Climate Action and Environment will appear before the committee to be questioned on the details of contractual controls; deployments plans and the best ownership model for rural broadband.

Oireachtas press release

21 May 2019, 15.39

The Joint Committee on Communications, Climate Action and Environment will begin a series of hearings on the National Broadband Plan. The hearings will focus on how best to proceed and the best means in which to roll out rural broadband.

The following witnesses will appear before the Committee:

Department of Communications, Climate Action and Environment

• Ciarán ÓhÓbáin, Assistant Secretary
• Fergal Mulligan, Project Manager
• Patrick Neary, Chief Technical Officer
• Orla Ryan, Principal Officer
• Ciara Kennedy, Assistant Principal

Committee Chair, Hildegarde Naughton TD, said, “The Committee has initiated these hearings in order to investigate the concerns around rollout of rural broadband to more than 500,000 homes and businesses. The Committee has a particular interest in the roll-out time frame; value for money issues, including the cost benefit analysis, and the issue of ownership. Tomorrow, Officials from the Department of Communications, Climate Action and Environment will appear before the Committee to provide Members with detail on issues including contractual controls; deployments plans; the best ownership model, and other issues.”

The Joint Committee meeting will start at 2.30pm in Committee Room 4, Leinster House.

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/press-centre/press-releases/20190521-communications-committee-to-begin-its-hearings-on-national-broadband-plan/

The Cush

The Cush wrote: »

We learned nothing new today, basically information recycled from the last few weeks. Maybe a little bit on the sub-contracts in reply to Timmy but no date for the signing of the main contract.

On the sub-contracts

Richard Bruton: The Government decision means that it is intended to award the State intervention contract to National Broadband Ireland, subject to contract close, including the finalisation of financial and legal documents. A period of final due diligence on all elements of the contract is part of the normal conclusion of a procurement process.

National Broadband Ireland will be supported by a number of experienced subcontractors and is currently tasked with finalising negotiations on contracts with approximately 40 subcontractors to assist in the delivery of the NBP. It is anticipated that a subset of approximately 15 to 20 of these subcontracts will be required prior to contract close to support deployment. The state aid notification relating to the NBP will also be submitted to the European Commission.

It is anticipated these elements will require a number of months, with contract close expected later this year and deployment commencing shortly after that.

Poulgorm

Does anybody know what the agreed plan is? Are they just going to extend the OpenEir fibre grid, or will they create a new, independent fibre grid, using the existing OpenEir poles and ducts?

The payment to OpenEir for using their poles/ducts: is it a once off payment or an annual one?

I am a layman in these matters (as you may have guessed).

westyIrl

Poulgorm wrote: »

Does anybody know what the agreed plan is? Are they just going to extend the OpenEir fibre grid, or will they create a new, independent fibre grid, using the existing OpenEir poles and ducts?

The payment to OpenEir for using their poles/ducts: is it a once off payment or an annual one?

I am a layman in these matters (as you may have guessed).

While we can all throw our best guess, nobody really knows until the contract is signed and even then it's not guaranteed as to how much information will be made public as regards subcontracts (e.g. between OpenEir and NBI).

My guess would be an independent fibre network (as completely inefficient as that sounds). I'd be pretty sure leases from OpenEir would commence once they start utilising whatever infrastructure and would be paid annually thereafter for the duration of the agreement with OpenEir(if one exists) or else revert to regulated pricing.

Jim

Johnboy1951

Poulgorm wrote: »

Does anybody know what the agreed plan is? Are they just going to extend the OpenEir fibre grid, or will they create a new, independent fibre grid, using the existing OpenEir poles and ducts?

The payment to OpenEir for using their poles/ducts: is it a once off payment or an annual one?

I am a layman in these matters (as you may have guessed).

I suspect it will be a mix of both connecting with Openeir fibre and independent .... connected to MANs etc.
At this time the information is not public.

Payments to Openeir for use of poles etc will be an annual payment per pole.

The Cush

Poulgorm wrote: »

Does anybody know what the agreed plan is? Are they just going to extend the OpenEir fibre grid, or will they create a new, independent fibre grid, using the existing OpenEir poles and ducts?

The payment to OpenEir for using their poles/ducts: is it a once off payment or an annual one?

Annual fees for poles and ducts. Prices change over the years.

No mention of open-eir fibre rental in any of the discussions, only pole and duct rental. They say they are rolling out about 145,000 Kms of fibre.

ED E

It seems highly likely they'll be paying OpenEir twice if not thrice.

1) Pole rental
2) Floor space rental
3) [In some areas] Connectivity back to core

recyclebin

Will most if not all of the copper wires on the poles become redundant when fibre comes along?

The Cush

recyclebin wrote: »

Will most if not all of the copper wires on the poles become redundant when fibre comes along?

Only when everyone has been moved over to fibre for data and voice

westyIrl

ED E wrote: »

It seems highly likely they'll be paying OpenEir twice if not thrice.

1) Pole rental
2) Floor space rental
3) [In some areas] Connectivity back to core

There will be a significant rental payment to OE alright. However, for the sake of the NBP I view this as a positive as it gives OE the necessary skin in the game to ensure they don't attempt to thwart it via courts or encroachment en masse. I don't know would the NBP have the half chance it does otherwise.

Jim

Grab All Association

Today in Thurles whilst venting my anger at the delay to repairing the fibre in my area to people who think they know more about the viability rural rollouts than Eircom and eNet, Docsis 3.1 was thrown out as a viable alternative to rural fibre.

Goes straight on the crazy pile of suggestions with 3G/4G/5G/Imagine/Musk for sure, but you’ve got to give it some credit, it’s a completely different type of crazy and I haven’t heard it before.

The Cush

Did anyone see the Communications Committee discussion with the Dept. of Communications officials today?

Only caught snippets of it on my mobile due to other commitments, wouldn't be fair to comment without seeing the whole discussion. Hope to look at it over the coming days.

rodge123

The more I hear Casey the more my blood boils, look at utter tripe in his leaflet on the national broadband plan, listening to him on radio and nobody challenges him his nbp statements.
Does he have shares in a certain wireless operator by any chance?!

Aside from nbp, what have most the items on his leaflet got to do with the role of an MEP!

The Cush

rodge123 wrote: »

The more I hear Casey the more my blood boils, look at utter tripe in his leaflet on the national broadband plan, listening to him on radio and nobody challenges him his nbp statements.
Does he have shares in a certain wireless operator by any chance?!

Himself, Bolger and Yates were all on the 5G bandwagon but I'm hearing less and less from them about it recently, presumably due to the NBP decision.

marno21

rodge123 wrote: »

The more I hear Casey the more my blood boils, look at utter tripe in his leaflet on the national broadband plan, listening to him on radio and nobody challenges him his nbp statements.
Does he have shares in a certain wireless operator by any chance?!

Aside from nbp, what have most the items on his leaflet got to do with the role of an MEP!

Nothing.

He's just another rent-a-gob chancing his arm after watching the rise of rent-a-gobs in the countries either side of us. Luckily, he will have zero input in the National Broadband Plan.

The Cush

The Cush wrote: »

Did anyone see the Communications Committee discussion with the Dept. of Communications officials today?

Only caught snippets of it on my mobile due to other commitments, wouldn't be fair to comment without seeing the whole discussion. Hope to look at it over the coming days.

This bit I did watch today - National Broadband Plan may cost €1bn less - government officials

https://twitter.com/adrianweckler/status/1131237717067599872

Adrian Weckler
May 22 2019 5:34 PM

The National Broadband Plan may cost the state €1bn less than the reported €3bn figure, the head of the state-subsidised process has told TDs.

Fergal Mulligan, programme director of the National Broadband Plan, told the Joint Committee on Communications, Climate Action and environment that a “best case scenario” could see the state subsidy for the rural fibre broadband rollout come down by a third.

“It’s possible that a number of things could come in under cost,” he said. “You can see that subsidy coming down by up to €1bn.”

He said that the most predictable base cost will be €1bn to ‘pass’ premises with fibre broadband cable.

“We have a good handle on that,” he said. “This includes things likes 144,000 kilometres of fibre cable, brackets, maybe some poles. It also includes things like optical line equipment in exchanges.”

Mr Mulligan said that further costs could turn out to be more variable.
“Connecting to each home is the biggest unknown cost,” he said. “We think it will be somewhere in the order of between €400 million to €700 million.

However, it’s only paid on costs incurred. So if connecting homes comes in at €300 million, that’s all we’ll pay.”

Mr Mulligan said that the government will be looking to reduce the subsidy “on a quarter by quarter basis”.

On preparing the contract

Mr Mulligan said that the Department Of Communications will now spend “two or three months” preparing the contract.

tsue921i8wljb3

Naughten on Virgin with Yates and Cooper now.

The Cush

Micheál Martin get angry, Leo Varadkar tell him he really needs to calm down

Exchanges between the two during Leaders' Questions in the Dáil today - https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/debate/dail/2019-05-22/18/

tsue921i8wljb3

There seems to be a real urban/rural divide over this project. I wonder if Fine Gael get a kicking in urban areas this Friday will it give them pause.

The Cush

Siena Gigantic Backyard wrote: »

There seems to be a real urban/rural divide over this project. I wonder if Fine Gael get a kicking in urban areas this Friday will it give them pause.

More like a Dublin/rural divide from what I been hearing in the media over the last while.

tsue921i8wljb3

The Cush wrote: »

More like a Dublin/rural divide from what I been hearing in the media over the last while.

University of Limerick Professor slating it on Virgin.

The Cush

Lapdog tried to raise 5G again but got knocked back by Naughten with the obselete 3G scheme.

The Cush

Siena Gigantic Backyard wrote: »

University of Limerick Professor slating it on Virgin.

FF Dublin TD, Dara O'Brien, slating it on Virgin too.

rodge123

Siena Gigantic Backyard wrote: »

University of Limerick Professor slating it on Virgin.

Another bean counter like Robert Watt that cant see past his balance sheet.

Ivan is a completely ignorant clown....5G 5G 5G 5G 5G....it's simple...5G will cure everything.