NBP: National Broadband Plan Announced

KOR101

The point is that all EIR were doing was trying to stymy the other bidders to better it's own chances. If they could make a business case for the blue line houses, then there wouldn't be an issue.

pegasus1

And aren't Siro going to do the same area's down the road...It's called competition..

Johnboy1951

rob808 wrote: »

That annoying the Goverment were first happy with the annoucement and now all the sudden there angry now.

..... possibly because having investigated the figures provided they see those extra 300k connections as non-viable commercially, and so are upset at eir for screwing around.

If those 300k were viable commercially it would be a huge boost for the NBP ---

fibre would be even closer to a large number of houses in the NBP and so it would cost less per connection of government subsidy.
It could mean savings for the tax payer!

pegasus1

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

..... possibly because having investigated the figures provided they see those extra 300k connections as non-viable commercially, and so are upset at eir for screwing around.

If those 300k were viable commercially it would be a huge boost for the NBP ---

fibre would be even closer to a large number of houses in the NBP and so it would cost less per connection of government subsidy.
It could mean savings for the tax payer!

The NBP plan is for the non viable commercial propertys in the first place...

Johnboy1951

pegasus1 wrote: »

The NBP plan is for the non viable commercial propertys in the first place...

Yes, but 'commercially non viable properties' rather than 'commercial properties'

Did you not understand what I posted?

KOR101

rob808 wrote: »

That annoying the Goverment were first happy with the annoucement and now all the sudden there angry now.

Yes, Alex White couldn't resist the photo op.

It was the other potential bidders who complained that this was greatly reducing the value of the NBP to them. Which is what Eir were trying to do.

Anyway, at this point, I can wait until Dec 22nd.

Stinicker

Award the contract to Eir, they have the manpower and know how plus existing infrastructure, make it a proviso that Eir rollout FTTH and not a terrible WISP solution. If The Fianna Fáil traitors didn't privatise Telecom Eireann we wouldn't be in this mess to begin with. Eir and SIRO should compliment each other not compete, nothing kills me more than to see companies running fibre against each other when there is places without it who more need the investment. SIRO could mop up urban areas with their fibre and slowly kill off Virgin UPC's outdated docsis coax network, and let Eir focus on the country and non Virgin urban areas. Fibre should be an infrastructural monopoly and dosen't need duplication and competition.

ED E

Stinicker wrote: »

Award the contract to Eir, they have the manpower and know how plus existing infrastructure, make it a proviso that Eir rollout FTTH and not a terrible WISP solution. If The Fianna Fáil traitors didn't privatise Telecom Eireann we wouldn't be in this mess to begin with. Eir and SIRO should compliment each other not compete, nothing kills me more than to see companies running fibre against each other when there is places without it who more need the investment. SIRO could mop up urban areas with their fibre and slowly kill off Virgin UPC's outdated docsis coax network, and let Eir focus on the country and non Virgin urban areas. Fibre should be an infrastructural monopoly and dosen't need duplication and competition.

A double stacked access network is what we need(excluding rural one off dwellings). Look at the US where the ISPs have intentionally not competed for years. They even admit it ("Its not anti competitive for us to merge as we dont operate in the same areas"), and the US consumer gets totally f'cked for service. Comcast and TW are despised because they have users by the proverbials.

Eir FTTH vs. EURODOCSIS and Eir FTTH vs SIRO FTTH is excellent. Please lets not go the other way.

Nollog

Stinicker wrote: »

Award the contract to Eir, they have the manpower and know how plus existing infrastructure, make it a proviso that Eir rollout FTTH and not a terrible WISP solution. If The Fianna Fáil traitors didn't privatise Telecom Eireann we wouldn't be in this mess to begin with. Eir and SIRO should compliment each other not compete, nothing kills me more than to see companies running fibre against each other when there is places without it who more need the investment. SIRO could mop up urban areas with their fibre and slowly kill off Virgin UPC's outdated docsis coax network, and let Eir focus on the country and non Virgin urban areas. Fibre should be an infrastructural monopoly and dosen't need duplication and competition.

The ideal situation would be Virgin, Siro, and Eir all running cables under everyone's home.

That's not going to happen, because it'd kill the companies, as they'd have to compete, reducing profits.

I've lived in a cable area, and non-cabled areas. The difference is sadening. Having proper infrastructural choice is wonderful for us as consumers.

oscarBravo

Hang on. What's new in Weckler's article that everyone's getting so worked up about? There's nothing whatsoever in it that we didn't already know. Why is it being discussed as if it's news?

tsue921i8wljb3

oscarBravo wrote: »

Hang on. What's new in Weckler's article that everyone's getting so worked up about? There's nothing whatsoever in it that we didn't already know. Why is it being discussed as if it's news?

I suppose for me it is this quote:

"The Government wants to proceed with its current plan, which would cover 700,000 rural premises. But it cannot do this if Eir extends its own fibre broadband plans to cover 300,000 of these rural homes, as it now says it will."

It confirms that there is a disagreement between Eir and DCENR about the scope of the project. I had thought that the department might take Eir at their word and proceed to release an updated intervention map that did not include the 300000 premises that Eir has targeted.

However it now appears that this may not be the case and that the map may not be drastically different to the one previously published.

As you are well versed in the process what do you think will happen on the 22nd?

Johnboy1951

/\/ollog wrote: »

The ideal situation would be Virgin, Siro, and Eir all running cables under everyone's home.

That's not going to happen, because it'd kill the companies, as they'd have to compete, reducing profits.

I've lived in a cable area, and non-cabled areas. The difference is sadening. Having proper infrastructural choice is wonderful for us as consumers.

The ideal situation to my mind is that every home gets a fibre connection.
All the fibre cable is owned by the people and the government is prevented from selling it without a referendum on the matter.

Then all the providers could compete as they wish over the same system.

That provides competition where it matters, in provision of service.

Duplicating fibre runs from competing companies is very wasteful, and it is the users who will be paying for it for evermore.

BUT ...... this is not an ideal world, so we take what we can get .......

rob808

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

The ideal situation to my mind is that every home gets a fibre connection.
All the fibre cable is owned by the people and the government is prevented from selling it without a referendum on the matter.

Then all the providers could compete as they wish over the same system.

That provides competition where it matters, in provision of service.

Duplicating fibre runs from competing companies is very wasteful, and it is the users who will be paying for it for evermore.

BUT ...... this is not an ideal world, so we take what we can get .......

well any company can use eir poles so having two different network wouldn't matter one own by the goverment the other by eir.I think in the long run the network would pay for itself then goverment could sell it.

oscarBravo

Siena Gigantic Backyard wrote: »

It confirms that there is a disagreement between Eir and DCENR about the scope of the project.

It doesn't confirm that; it claims it. Nobody is quoted.

I had thought that the department might take Eir at their word and proceed to release an updated intervention map that did not include the 300000 premises that Eir has targeted.

However it now appears that this may not be the case and that the map may not be drastically different to the one previously published.

DCENR would be insane to take Eir at their word that they're going to roll out fibre to half the country, and they'd rightly get called on it if they did take their word for it. They have consulted with stakeholders on what to do about claims of planned commercial coverage, and they'll update the map accordingly.

If Eir can make a convincing case that they're serious about the rollout, then the intervention area will be reduced, but probably only on the basis of a binding agreement with Eir to actually do the rollout.

As you are well versed in the process what do you think will happen on the 22nd?

I don't know. I've made my input to the latest consultation; now we wait and see.

On one level, it doesn't much matter whether the intervention area is reduced, because that means that those within Eir's proposed footprint will get fibre anyway. Sure, it means that those premises remaining in the updated map are on average harder to do, but they were going to have to be done anyway. It increases the average cost per premises, but reduces the overall cost of the intervention.

Arguably the worst outcome is that DCENR dismiss Eir's proposed rollout plans and Eir challenge that dismissal. That would mean delays. The department seems to have been managing the process pretty carefully so far, so I'm cautiously optimistic.

tsue921i8wljb3

oscarBravo wrote: »

It doesn't confirm that; it claims it. Nobody is quoted.

DCENR would be insane to take Eir at their word that they're going to roll out fibre to half the country, and they'd rightly get called on it if they did take their word for it. They have consulted with stakeholders on what to do about claims of planned commercial coverage, and they'll update the map accordingly.

If Eir can make a convincing case that they're serious about the rollout, then the intervention area will be reduced, but probably only on the basis of a binding agreement with Eir to actually do the rollout. I don't know. I've made my input to the latest consultation; now we wait and see.

On one level, it doesn't much matter whether the intervention area is reduced, because that means that those within Eir's proposed footprint will get fibre anyway. Sure, it means that those premises remaining in the updated map are on average harder to do, but they were going to have to be done anyway. It increases the average cost per premises, but reduces the overall cost of the intervention.

Arguably the worst outcome is that DCENR dismiss Eir's proposed rollout plans and Eir challenge that dismissal. That would mean delays. The department seems to have been managing the process pretty carefully so far, so I'm cautiously optimistic.

Thanks for the post. It all makes sense. It certainly will be interesting to see what happens in nine days!

The Cush

National Broadband Plan may undermine competition, claims economist Colm McCarthy in a report, commissioned by a group of fixed wireless operators.

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/broadband-plan-may-undermine-competition-claims-expert-1.2465244

According to Nigel Young's submission to the DCENR consultation last July Colm McCarthy was retained as a consultant to the IASPI WISP sub-group (lobby group, Wireless Broadband Ireland)

The WISPs’ purpose in retainer Mr McCarthy was to examine the government’s NBP proposals inter alia to examine if and how the NBP objectives could be achieved at lesser cost. Mr McCarthy is clearly an ideal person for that task. The reason such an analysis is of vital importance is of course to ensure that for the purposes of the SAG the amount of State aid required is kept to the absolute minimum necessary.

wexfordman2

The Cush wrote: »

National Broadband Plan may undermine competition, claims economist Colm McCarthy in a report, commissioned by a group of fixed wireless operators.

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/broadband-plan-may-undermine-competition-claims-expert-1.2465244

Its not a good anology for the following reasons

1) the electricity infrastructure was built by the state, and by 100% state iintervention, it was called rural electrification, one if the biggest projects undertaken by the state.

2) today, thanks to the above, we have 100% electricity coverage to the entire country .

3) If Mr mcarthy wants to compare the two, perhaps he should approach the wireless product as a 100v system that can fluctuate down to 50v during peak times, and will never be capable of delivering 230v

rob808

Mr McCarthy doesn't make really any case that fixed wireless will go out of business.The only thing I got out of that article was that the 36 wisp want to keep there monpoloy on there county and want rural people paying high prices for the slow broadband.

It seem wisp don't want a open market and now want NBP scraped by the look of it how greedy are they.

KOR101

His point is well timed.

The head of Ofcom, the UK's communications regulator, has warned that big changes are afoot for BT and Openreach. Ofcom chief Sharon White is still keeping her cards fairly close to her chest, but it sounds like something dramatic is about to occur: extensive deregulation; some strict rules on how Openreach goes about fixing, installing, and upgrading its network; or a complete structural separation of Openreach into a separate company. A final decision is expected in January 2016.

http://arstechnica.co.uk/business/2015/12/ofcom-warns-that-bt-and-openreach-could-be-forced-to-split-up/

But, this from the BBC.

Now, it is still far from certain that Ofcom's Sharon White will recommend that Openreach is split off - and the digital minister Ed Vaizey has already indicated that the government is sceptical about such radical action. But BT knows that it is now under the microscope of a regulator determined to prove that it is the consumer's friend.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-34972702

Hard to see how this is an argument for wireless though.

pegasus1

Unless a wisp can 100% guarantee 100% fibre equiv speed of wireless to 100% of premises in 100% of their allocated area and especially through trees in the summer they haven't a snowballs chance

Johnboy1951

Anyone got a link to the actual report and not just what a journalist might think are the relevant points?

Had a quick search but failed to find it ......

pegasus1

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Anyone got a link to the actual report and not just what a journalist might think are the relevant points?

Had a quick search but failed to find it ......

I think the journo wrote the report..

vkid

pegasus1 wrote: »

Unless a wisp can 100% guarantee 100% fibre equiv speed of wireless to 100% of premises in 100% of their allocated area and especially through trees in the summer they haven't a snowballs chance

Any WISP who says they can install through tree's in summer or winter should not be installing ..if its through a tree you do not have line of sight to anything more than the tree...

oscarBravo

In case anyone missed it, some responses to the earlier (intervention strategy) consultation were published later than the others. On page 9 of the list of submissions there are now responses from Alto, BT, and Michael Colreavy TD.

tvc15

FYI, Imagine came to my house to put in a test installation for their 'fibre connect' solution to the national broadband plan. Surprise surprise, in winter with no leaves they still couldn't get a connection even with an external antenna. This is with my house being quite tall and on a bit of hill! I doubt this failed installation will make it on to any report

ACLFC7

tvc15 wrote: »

FYI, Imagine came to my house to put in a test installation for their 'fibre connect' solution to the national broadband plan. Surprise surprise, in winter with no leaves they still couldn't get a connection even with an external antenna. This is with my house being quite tall and on a bit of hill! I doubt this failed installation will make it on to any report

Is this part of fibre connect in Kildare or somewhere else? I live in Kilteel and I got an email today saying that my exact location isn't within the coverage area. Surprised they can't cover all Kilteel since it's quite a small area. Is this a "line of sight" type of technology?

tvc15

ACLFC7 wrote: »

Is this part of fibre connect in Kildare or somewhere else? I live in Kilteel and I got an email today saying that my exact location isn't within the coverage area. Surprised they can't cover all Kilteel since it's quite a small area. Is this a "line of sight" type of technology?

Part of the Kildare trial

The Cush

Minister White on Morning Ireland earlier but wouldn't answer any questions on the NBP as full details will be announced next week.

BandMember

The Cush wrote: »

Minister White on Morning Ireland earlier but wouldn't answer any questions on the NBP as full details will be announced next week.

I don't think it really matters what he says anymore, his term is over and everything (for every politician and party) is about the upcoming election now. The reality is, he won't be the Minister by the time next Spring is over so you would hope that whoever is pushing the NBP is(are) a group a civil servants in the Department of Communications who will try to explain to the next incumbent (who can probably barely send a text, let alone an e-mail) why this project is so important and must not be altered or rolled back in any way, shape or form. Well, as I say, you'd hope......

Falcon L

dubmick wrote: »

installing faster broadband to my wife.

If only this was After Hours.



The guys doing the work will say anything. If you want to know what they were at, ask Eir?

BandMember

Falcon L wrote: »

If only this was After Hours.

I was thinking the same myself! :pac:

bk

For feck sake :mad:

http://www.newstalk.com/reader/47.301/61443/0/

State projects over €20m need a Cost Benefit Analysis but does the National Broadband Plan have one?

WBI, a grouping of 36 wireless broadband companies (many of whom are small regional suppliers)
....
WBI claim that "it is not clear if this requirement has been complied with."

The greedy feckers in the WISPs trying to screw rural Ireland over again!

Nollog

Stall tactics won't help them surely, I don't get it.

bk

/\/ollog wrote: »

Stall tactics won't help them surely, I don't get it.

Perhaps hope to stall it until after the election, when the next government might drop it?

Given that it is supposed to be announced next week, it sounds like they are getting desperate to delay it further.

BandMember

bk wrote: »

Perhaps hope to stall it until after the election, when the next government might drop it?

Given that it is supposed to be announced next week, it sounds like they are getting desperate to delay it further.

It certainly looks like it alright. At this stage, they are just like a certain former solicitor - they can object all they want but they are only prolonging the inevitable.

I wonder if there was any report(s) conducted into the monopoly that these guys currently enjoy and if they were asked if they are compliant with the relevant Competition Law and EU Directives on the matter? Somehow, I would seriously doubt it...

Johnboy1951

Bean counters never see past the numbers, and if you cannot produce numbers the project should not be considered ....... that is numbers quantifying the benefits.

So how could that possibly be done accurately?

Analysing one of the reports – carried out by PwC on the benefits of the NBP, McCarthy found there was “no attempt to place monetary values on any of the identified benefits as in a conventional CBA.”
He adds that there has been nothing published in the NBP documentation “which quantifies the benefits of increased broadband delivery”.

How does one quantify, in monetary terms, the benefit to people in isolated areas having modern communication methods available to them, to access all types of services?

I doubt I could quantify in purely monetary terms what having broadband means to me.

In the case of such basic infrastructure the CBA requirements could be a hassle ....... but I suppose someone someplace will generate figures (pluck from air/eir ).

rob808

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Bean counters never see past the numbers, and if you cannot produce numbers the project should not be considered ....... that is numbers quantifying the benefits.

So how could that possibly be done accurately?



How does one quantify, in monetary terms, the benefit to people in isolated areas having modern communication methods available to them, to access all types of services?

I doubt I could quantify in purely monetary terms what having broadband means to me.

In the case of such basic infrastructure the CBA requirements could be a hassle ....... but I suppose someone someplace will generate figures (pluck from air/eir ).

I wouldn't listen to what McCarty saying rural people don't need fast broadband and NBP would put wisp out of business it gona be wholesale product.If you look at Kerry broadband doing FTTH with Enet and net 1 reselling FTTH.I can't understand why 36 wisp lead by ripplecom can't do the same they just want to keep there monopoly.They didn't supply rural broadband by goodness of there hearts they saw money and didn't care what kinda broadband they supply because we had no choice but take it.

rob808

look like imagine doing LTE with fibre with speeds 30mb to 150mb.I wonder would you even hit those speeds all the time plus I say download caps are really small.http://www.independent.ie/business/technology/news/imagine-to-start-rollout-of-200m-fast-broadband-system-in-2016-34297484.html

Nollog

rob808 wrote: »

look like imagine doing LTE with fibre with speeds 30mb to 150mb.I wonder would you even hit those speeds all the time plus I say download caps are really small.http://www.independent.ie/business/technology/news/imagine-to-start-rollout-of-200m-fast-broadband-system-in-2016-34297484.html

Nothing to do with NBP, but imagine have a lot of debt.
Weird how people are investing in them roll out what is essentially 4g masts.

KOR101

Not sure whether this was posted here already.

Ireland’s ambitious National Broadband Plan is still on track to deliver high-speed broadband to 300,000 homes and 100,000 businesses by 2020, with the procurement process starting next week, a spokesperson for the Department of Communications told Siliconrepublic.com.

https://www.siliconrepublic.com/comms/2015/12/17/national-broadband-plan-irish-government

It's the headline that has me worried. Did the 300,00 figure come from the Department spokesperson?

And, there was this also.

Data usage on Irish mobile networks increased by nearly 500pc between 2011 and 2015 and around 82pc of all Irish mobile phone users now carry smartphones, according to ComReg. Pressure is on to pave the way for spectrum that can support future mobile services.

ComReg predicts that mobile data usage in Ireland will increase to 33 times today’s levels by 2035.

https://www.siliconrepublic.com/comms/2015/12/14/wireless-spectrum-ireland-comreg

It's hard to see room for the fixed wireless internet companies in the face of that demand for spectrum and masts.

KOR101

Nothing really new here, but in the IT.

Eir awaits decision on rural broadband proposal

In a statement Eir told The Irish Times the company remained committed to previous investment announcements.

However, Fine Gael TD for Kildare South Martin Heydon has raised concerns about Eir’s proposals.

“My concern is that private operators such as Eir are announcing very ambitious plans to roll out Fibre to the Home (FTTH) to 66 regional towns and 300,000 rural homes without any clear timelines for delivery or any proof that they have an ability to deliver it quicker than State-led investment.

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/eir-awaits-decision-on-rural-broadband-proposal-1.2471651

oscarBravo

Anyone who read (and, ideally, responded to) the consultation about updating the map should be reassured that DCENR aren't just going to take Eir's word for it that they'll roll out those 300,000 FTTH premises. Unless their proposals were severely watered down, they'll have wanted to see detailed rollout plans with concrete financials, and they'll have looked for a binding commitment to actually deliver.

Basically, they'll either have to do it (in which case yay for those 300,000 premises) or else it will become part of the NBP anyway. Win-win.

MajesticDonkey

oscarBravo wrote: »

Basically, they'll either have to do it (in which case yay for those 300,000 premises) or else it will become part of the NBP anyway. Win-win.

At the moment, I'm actually banking on eir supplying me with FTTH rather than the NBP

KOR101

oscarBravo wrote: »

.... they'll have wanted to see detailed rollout plans with concrete financials, and they'll have looked for a binding commitment to actually deliver.

I'm puzzled how that would work legally.

From an IT article.

He also intends to make the company sign a “commitment contract” before entering the tender process. This will be done under the cover of making all prospective bidders sign such contracts.

That presumably only has legal effect if it is part of a winning contract. Although, I suppose, Eir winning some of the contract is probably a foregone conclusion.

oscarBravo

KOR101 wrote: »

That presumably only has legal effect if it is part of a winning contract.

I don't see why. If you want the government not to roll out broadband in an area where you intend to roll it out commercially, you enter into a binding contract to actually do the rollout. If you fail to honour your commitments, the contract is void and the government adds your commercial areas back into the NBP.

Such binding commitments are envisaged and permitted by the EU state aid guidelines.

KOR101

oscarBravo wrote: »

I don't see why. If you want the government not to roll out broadband in an area where you intend to roll it out commercially, you enter into a binding contract to actually do the rollout. If you fail to honour your commitments, the contract is void and the government adds your commercial areas back into the NBP.

Such binding commitments are envisaged and permitted by the EU state aid guidelines.

Okay. Point taken.

pegasus1

Is today going to be the day when it will be the start of progress and hopefully the wisp is going the way of the dodo. . .?

mobil 222

https://t.co/dMahXsna0J

rob808

The NBP map the same is Eir still allow do 300,000 home for FTTH.I wonder could the wisp be able to deliver on 30mb and 6mb up on 3.6hrz wireless and what kinda future speeds could they get because LTE doesn't really get much better speed after 30mb.

I really hope the bigger players get the contracts siro,Eir,Gigabite fibre ltd.I think if 36 wisp win the NBP over before it begins.

KOR101

Minister White said that the government has yet to decide on the commercial basis of the National Broadband Plan tender contract. He said that it will either be a model that hands over ownership of the network to the operator after teh 25 years are up, or a model that simply ‘leases’ a state-owned network to an operator for 25 years, after which it reverts back as a state asset.

http://m.independent.ie/business/technology/government-launches-national-broadband-plan-avoids-legal-action-by-eir-34307359.html

......I thought the plan was supposed to be going out to contract/tender now?

.....First houses connected in 2017, not 2016 as said before.