NBP: National Broadband Plan Announced

rob808

oscarBravo wrote: »

This is an idea that has a surprising amount of traction. Where do people get the idea that hard to reach areas are easier to do with wireless than with fibre?

I got a request for a broadband connection a while back from someone who lives in a valley somewhere south of Croagh Patrick. I did some desktop surveys, and not only could he not see any of the high sites on our network (bearing in mind we have over a hundred high sites in Mayo alone) - he couldn't even see a house that could see a high site on our network.

The operating theory seems to be that wireless is the answer for a hard-to-reach customer like this, but the simple fact is that he has electricity, which means that someone has already solved the problem of how to get wires to his house - but he's still waiting for a wireless connection.

He also, as it happens, has no mobile coverage from any of the networks.

It may be tricky, but it's at least possible to achieve 100% coverage with fibre. It's actually a lot harder to achieve with wireless. Compare the percentage of homes without electricity to the percentage of homes without mobile phone coverage.

I know because eir and siro said in there submission to NBP.I would love to see 100% FTTH network guess it be up to eir and siro if they win the contracts .I think imagine gona use three network because they need a big operator behind them if they do I hope it mess them up.I think we're missing the point eir said if win NBP it gona use FTTH mostly and only small portion LTE and I say it same for siro which isn't bad.It better than a full LTE which never get higher than 30mb.

tsue921i8wljb3

rob808 wrote: »

I know because eir and siro said in there submission to NBP.I would love to see 100% FTTH network guess it be up to eir and siro if they win the contracts .

Is there any chance you could provide a reference for those quotes? I have read a lot of the consultation submissions and cannot remember seeing it mentioned by Eir or Siro. I may have missed it though.

rob808

Siena Gigantic Backyard wrote: »

Is there any chance you could provide a reference for those quotes? I have read a lot of the consultation submissions and cannot remember seeing it mentioned by Eir or Siro. I may have missed it though.

I try but they said something like they use LTE for a small cluster of house on ribbon road but they were mostly talking about FTTH.There isn't one for siro but for Vodafone since they were not set up at that time.I would imagine that siro would do a 100% FTTH network with no LTE for NBP.http://fibrerollout.ie/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Call-for-Input.pdf

rob808

pegasus1 wrote: »

One question is LTE-A Line of site or not?

yea think it is line of site

tsue921i8wljb3

rob808 wrote: »

I try but they said something like they use LTE for a small cluster of house on ribbon road but they were mostly talking about FTTH.There isn't one for siro but for Vodafone since they were not set up at that time.I would imagine that siro would do a 100% FTTH network with no LTE for NBP.http://fibrerollout.ie/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Call-for-Input.pdf

That document which is dated October 2104 only states that LTE may or could be used.

However in the eir executive summary to the public consultation, dated September 2015, there is the following quote:

"eir's proposed solution will deliver in excess of 100Mbps for every connection from day one..."

Unless they intend to install dedicated point to point wireless links for very remote locations I cannot see how this tallies with your assertion that LTE will be used.

rob808

Siena Gigantic Backyard wrote: »

That document which is dated October 2104 only states that LTE may or could be used.

However in the eir executive summary to the public consultation, dated September 2015, there is the following quote:

"eir's proposed solution will deliver in excess of 100Mbps for every connection from day one..."

Unless they intend to install dedicated point to point wireless links for very remote locations I cannot see how this tallies with your assertion that LTE will be used.

well they could go fully FTTH if they win which is another year away.The first to be connected is schools and business in late 2016 and first residential areas in early 2017.

pegasus1

I would say in a village with a school/business the houses would get fed with fibre at the same time, as that's common sense...

rob808

pegasus1 wrote: »

I would say in a village with a school/business the houses would get fed with fibre at the same time, as that's common sense...

well guess that be upto the Bidder (s) that win the contract.

ED E

Historically eir have done it in a phased fashion with core being laid, then distro and access later (by KNN in recent years).

Not impractical to see the same for this, eir/BT/Siro techs running out to each village/substation then having the contractors do the dirty work of small spurs.

KOR101

From The Examiner....

Fears raised as Government's National Broadband Plan might not meet business needs

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/fears-raised-as-governments-national-broadband-plan-might-not-meet-business-needs-373254.html

Johnboy1951

KOR101 wrote: »

From The Examiner....

Fears raised as Government's National Broadband Plan might not meet business needs

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/fears-raised-as-governments-national-broadband-plan-might-not-meet-business-needs-373254.html

In a submission on the plan, the department warned Communications Minister Alex White that the minimum download speed of 30Mbps and minimum upload speed of 6Mbps that service providers will have to guarantee if they want to bid for the contract is too low. It said companies want download speeds at least three times higher and a quadrupling of upload speeds.

They should be taking this up with the EU then!

rob808

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

They should be taking this up with the EU then!

well we all ready knew 30mb and 6up was slow it was EU target.The goverment just needs to give NBP to big players and make a FTTH network and let the wisp access it cheaply so they can complete against the like of Eir,siro,sky and so on.

tsue921i8wljb3

KOR101 wrote: »

From The Examiner....

Fears raised as Government's National Broadband Plan might not meet business needs

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/fears-raised-as-governments-national-broadband-plan-might-not-meet-business-needs-373254.html

Nothing new in that article. It seems like the journalist read the submissions to the public consultation, which have been published since the end of October by the way, then decided to pen a pointles piece.

It's highly likely that with only two lots that FTTH will be used for the entirety of the NBP. It is only a matter of how long it takes and if it will be held up by legal challenges.

rob808

Siena Gigantic Backyard wrote: »

Nothing new in that article. It seems like the journalist read the submissions to the public consultation, which have been published since the end of October by the way, then decided to pen a pointles piece.

It's highly likely that with only two lots that FTTH will be used for the entirety of the NBP. It is only a matter of how long it takes and if it will be held up by legal challenges.

I hope there no legal challenges that last thing we need.It like another year away hopefully the contracts are rewarded in early summer.The sooner they start the better and with FTTH.The only problem will be imagine and ripplecom doing there LTE advance network with little fibre trying to shorten NBP area.

KOR101

Siena Gigantic Backyard wrote: »

It's highly likely that with only two lots that FTTH will be used for the entirety of the NBP. It is only a matter of how long it takes and if it will be held up by legal challenges.

I agree. It's hard to see how wireless can meet the criteria. Maybe Eir could still have a surprise or two up it's sleeve. Say they lose out in one region. They could still try to roll out FTTC in large parts of that region, and demand that the NBP map be adjusted.

rob808

KOR101 wrote: »

I agree. It's hard to see how wireless can meet the criteria. Maybe Eir could still have a surprise or two up it's sleeve. Say they lose out in one region. They could still try to roll out FTTC in large parts of that region, and demand that the NBP map be adjusted.

I say the cost doing FTTC to say a small village be to high probably same as rolling out FTTH.Then again they did do FTTC in belcarra in village and FTTH for houses outside of it reach so guess they could do FTTC.

oscarBravo

rob808 wrote: »

Then again they did do FTTC in belcarra in village and FTTH for houses outside of it reach so guess they could do FTTC.

Nope. FTTH in the village and outside it.

mass_debater

They enabled the exchange for eVDSL after the trial

Cuddlesworth

oscarBravo wrote: »

Fine. How about I give you a location, and you tell me where you're going to build a high site to service it? Then we can have a discussion about how you're going to go about acquiring the site, obtaining planning permission, installing fibre to that site...

We get it, there are places where wireless won't work and in reality it won't work for a national plan. But why does he need to live in the valley? Why should we subsidise thousands to run cables to isolated houses in hard to reach areas that have no substantial reason to still exist. We ran electricity because it was viewed as a basic human right. Is broadband access a right or a privilege?

I said way back in this thread that its all fine to say FTTH for all rural folks, until somebody is asked to open their checkbook for it. And that the quotes given will not come close to the reality, none of our government projects ever do. Suppliers bid low and raise the price later. As somebody who can pick where I work, I would love modern broadband in areas that are more affordable but I'd prefer to not be paying for others.

rob808

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

We get it, there are places where wireless won't work and in reality it won't work for a national plan. But why does he need to live in the valley? Why should we subsidise thousands to run cables to isolated houses in hard to reach areas that have no substantial reason to still exist. We ran electricity because it was viewed as a basic human right. Is broadband access a right or a privilege?

I said way back in this thread that its all fine to say FTTH for all rural folks, until somebody is asked to open their checkbook for it. And that the quotes given will not come close to the reality, none of our government projects ever do. Suppliers bid low and raise the price later. As somebody who can pick where I work, I would love modern broadband in areas that are more affordable but I'd prefer to not be paying for others.

well broadband is a human right and tax payers pays for roads,ect.The NBP propose is to give broadband were telco won't invest.I get the point about people build house sometimes in middle of nowhere not everyone want to live in a city they should access to decent broadband.


I think LTE will be use for hard to reach place doh FTTH could reach anywhere there electricity poles you can string up fibre and think siro should win 1 of the lots or even both.It really not costing you anything it not like there taking money out of your pay check .

oscarBravo

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

But why does he need to live in the valley?

Maybe he's a farmer? Maybe he's caring for an elderly parent who doesn't want to leave a home that's been in the family for generations? Maybe he's disabled and can't afford to live in a town?

Sure, that's not true of everyone who lives in hard-to-cover places, but unless you think the government should write in a "do they deserve broadband?" clause into the NBP contract, the question is moot.

The Digital Agenda for Europe has set a goal of providing high-speed broadband to all Europeans by 2020. Not "all Europeans who want broadband enough to move to a city to get it"; not "all Europeans who pass an arbitrary 'why do they need to live where they do?' test"; all Europeans.

...I'd prefer to not be paying for others.

Just think: if everyone had the decency to move to cities, stamps would be slightly cheaper too. Do you object to a universal postal service? Should people who want postal deliveries have to move to the nearest town?

rob808 wrote: »

I think LTE will be use for hard to reach place...

You're still doing it. You're assuming that LTE can provide decent coverage to hard-to-reach places. I'm arguing that it can't; at least not cost-effectively - and if it's going to be expensive to do LTE, then it makes more sense to do expensive fibre. At least it's future-proof.

rob808

oscarBravo wrote: »

Maybe he's a farmer? Maybe he's caring for an elderly parent who doesn't want to leave a home that's been in the family for generations? Maybe he's disabled and can't afford to live in a town?

Sure, that's not true of everyone who lives in hard-to-cover places, but unless you think the government should write in a "do they deserve broadband?" clause into the NBP contract, the question is moot.

The Digital Agenda for Europe has set a goal of providing high-speed broadband to all Europeans by 2020. Not "all Europeans who want broadband enough to move to a city to get it"; not "all Europeans who pass an arbitrary 'why do they need to live where they do?' test"; all Europeans.

Just think: if everyone had the decency to move to cities, stamps would be slightly cheaper too. Do you object to a universal postal service? Should people who want postal deliveries have to move to the nearest town?

You're still doing it. You're assuming that LTE can provide decent coverage to hard-to-reach places. I'm arguing that it can't; at least not cost-effectively - and if it's going to be expensive to do LTE, then it makes more sense to do expensive fibre. At least it's future-proof.

I did but unless siro wins because there a doing 100% FTTH network and wouldn't want LTE same with Gigabite fibre not sure eir would do 100% FTTH not sure about axione that French company.I know LTE not really future proof and really don't want it used in NBP.

Johnboy1951

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

We get it, there are places where wireless won't work and in reality it won't work for a national plan. But why does he need to live in the valley? ............

Because that is where his home is?

Seems to be a reasonable assumption.

MajesticDonkey

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Is broadband access a right or a privilege?

It's a right, as stated by the UN a number of years ago.

AngryGoldfish

I just received an email from Siro saying my area will not be covered by Phase 1. I shouldn't have got my hopes up. The did direct me to the NBP, but I found my area would not covered in 2016 by them either. It looks like it won't be until 2018 before my area, an area full of families, will be covered.

I personally feel consistent broadband (30MB or more) is a right that all members of the public should be allowed to access to. Running a business from home, gaming, education, watching Netflix, sending videos to family members, it's almost impossible with our connection. To say that I and many others shouldn't have access to this because it's too expensive for little reward questions morality of many of our decisions in life that only benefit the few. I have a disability. I can't afford to live in a major town, yet I would like to run a business from home (something I can actually do). Because my criteria is more cumbersome, I am disallowed a simple service, one I'm willing to pay for. I find that hard to swallow.

bk

AngryGoldfish wrote: »

Because my criteria is more cumbersome, I am disallowed a simple service, one I'm willing to pay for. I find that hard to swallow.

Here, is the question though, are you will to pay the couple of thousand, maybe even more then ten thousand that it costs to get quality broadband to rural homes?

BT has a scheme in the UK where anyone can order FTTH as long as they are willing to pay the full install cost (costs about €10,000 for a home 2km from the exchange). Few people sign up for it as in relaity few people are willing to pay the real costs. Not unless it is being subsidised by the city folks.

pegasus1

bk wrote: »

BT has a scheme in the UK where anyone can order FTTH as long as they are willing to pay the full install cost (costs about €10,000 for a home 2km from the exchange). Few people sign up for it as in relaity few people are willing to pay the real costs. Not unless it is being subsidised by the city folks.

Probably priced at that price for a duct being put in... It will be cheaper here as the fibre will be run with the power grid, and hopefully Eir will get to run it that way...If Siro get one of the 2 area's then presumably they will have to allow Eir/other that method for the other area..

AngryGoldfish

bk wrote: »

Here, is the question though, are you will to pay the couple of thousand, maybe even more then ten thousand that it costs to get quality broadband to rural homes?

BT has a scheme in the UK where anyone can order FTTH as long as they are willing to pay the full install cost (costs about €10,000 for a home 2km from the exchange). Few people sign up for it as in relaity few people are willing to pay the real costs. Not unless it is being subsidised by the city folks.

A flat rate fee of €1000-2000, I'd consider it, absiolutely. €10,000 is worth it so that my younger sibling and mother are guaranteed broadband in the following years to come as they won't be moving, but I wouldn't be able to afford it so it's moot really. I don't think I'll be here for the rest of my life either. I may have my problems, but I'm getting older and I'd like to see if I can handle life on my own or with friends.

rob808

bk wrote: »

Here, is the question though, are you will to pay the couple of thousand, maybe even more then ten thousand that it costs to get quality broadband to rural homes?

BT has a scheme in the UK where anyone can order FTTH as long as they are willing to pay the full install cost (costs about €10,000 for a home 2km from the exchange). Few people sign up for it as in relaity few people are willing to pay the real costs. Not unless it is being subsidised by the city folks.

It probably only cost €10,000 if there digging up roads but if strung on a pole it wouldn't be that much most the cost is connecting it to the home.If look at some of the community run FTTH they do it much cheaper than BT.I think BT are worser than Eir I don't think we would want them having any part in our NBP.

mass_debater

You're all just assuming the ESB poles and existing cables can take the weight and strain of the extra fibre cables, there are most likely upgrades required

rob808

mass_debater wrote: »

You're all just assuming the ESB poles and existing cables can take the weight and strain of the extra fibre cables, there are most likely upgrades required

The ESB poles easily be able to take the weight of fibre since it light weight and weight less than copper if Eir poles can take fibre it be no problem for ESB poles.

mass_debater

rob808 wrote: »

The ESB poles easily be able to take the weight of fibre since it light weight and weight less than copper if Eir poles can take fibre it be no problem for ESB poles.

Eir replaced lots of poles for their trial in Belcara. ESB poles will be rated to carry a certain weight and strain in Irish weather conditions, you can't just suddenly add more without some detailed study of the effects that would have. You're back to planning stage.

rob808

mass_debater wrote: »

Eir replaced lots of poles for their trial in Belcara. ESB poles will be rated to carry a certain weight and strain in Irish weather conditions, you can't just suddenly add more without some detailed study of the effects that would have. You're back to planning stage.

I think alot poles in belcarra were in bad shape so guess they would have to replace them to string up fibre.The ESB poles are way better than Eir they probably have to do some upgrading for the weight but fibre doesn't weight as much as copper does,and I say siro would do there homework before rolling it out.

ED E

You're making plain assumptions Rob, can't do that where mains supply is involved that can kill a person in an instant. If eir have a pole down its a pain in the face for them, thats it, same for ESB can mean a fatality.

Nothing will happen involving the mains grid until ESB HQ have thoroughly certified it you can be sure of that.

rob808

ED E wrote: »

You're making plain assumptions Rob, can't do that where mains supply is involved that can kill a person in an instant. If eir have a pole down its a pain in the face for them, thats it, same for ESB can mean a fatality.

Nothing will happen involving the mains grid until ESB HQ have thoroughly certified it you can be sure of that.

well siro know what there doing so don't see a problem the EBS would do most the work with Vodafone help they would have to survey the area before starting the work.I know Eir would have a easier job than siro because of the electricity.The good thing about Eir and siro they know there network were every poles and ducts are there perfect for winning a lot.

rob808

I just look at imagine NBP map submission and they bitch on about the 6mb upload speed not being need and should be dropped.They say it going to make intervention area big costing tax payer more and how FTTH would be bad for NBP.I really hate that company here the link http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/communications/Lists/Consultations%20Submissions/NBP%20Mapping%20Consultation%20November%202015/Imagine.pdf

Nollog

In addition, in circumstances where the State were to propose Intervention in areas where NGA
services are available (30Mbps or more download) but the artificial 6Mbps upload requirement is
not available to all customers this is intended to lead to state intervention into this area. This will
introduce subsidised infrastructure under the NBP into an otherwise properly functioning
commercial market and an obvious issue of market interference and distortion arises. Such state
intervention would be a conscious interference in the market and would knowingly directly
undermine the business case for commercial investment.

Aw, poor imagine.

They can't offer 30/6 so everyone has to make do with awful speeds.

rob808

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/telecoms-firms-face-moving-goalposts-for-275m-state-broadband-tender-34331223.html it look like wisp could have a Ace up there sleeve and I say imagine and ripplecom will take it and try deploy there LTE A network fast to as many people they can destroying any chance of people getting decent broadband FTTH.

KOR101

rob808 wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/telecoms-firms-face-moving-goalposts-for-275m-state-broadband-tender-34331223.html it look like wisp could have a Ace up there sleeve and I say imagine and ripplecom will take it and try deploy there LTE A network fast to as many people they can destroying any chance of people getting decent broadband FTTH.

I think you're misreading this. The WISPs will find it very hard to satisfy the criteria. Who is going to invest in WISP infrastructure in this environment. And, one of technical criteria is whether the any proposal intends to use 'fibre optics'.

Eir have said they don't intend to sue at present, and they are reassured by the flexibility in the NBP map. That's the space to watch.

Cuddlesworth

oscarBravo wrote: »

Maybe he's a farmer? Maybe he's caring for an elderly parent who doesn't want to leave a home that's been in the family for generations? Maybe he's disabled and can't afford to live in a town?

Sure, that's not true of everyone who lives in hard-to-cover places, but unless you think the government should write in a "do they deserve broadband?" clause into the NBP contract, the question is moot.

The Digital Agenda for Europe has set a goal of providing high-speed broadband to all Europeans by 2020. Not "all Europeans who want broadband enough to move to a city to get it"; not "all Europeans who pass an arbitrary 'why do they need to live where they do?' test"; all Europeans.

Goal. They can't order any country to do anything and in reality I doubt most European country's will meet that goal in 4 years. I just don't see the social value in it being a worthwhile government investment. If you told me we were transferring to a cashless society in 2020 and every premises in Ireland had to be wired so it could be achieved, I'd agree to that in a heartbeat. That has a value to us as a whole, not just to getting a Kerry farmer access to YouTube.

rob808

Well imagine said there investing 50 million in LTE A and the other 150 million in 3 or 5 years would that not affect NBP.They did that trail in kildare 100mb for purpose of showing it off for NBP doh was one guy on this form that said it was a failure for him not being able to get signal.

ED E

For the love of god please use proper English, this is a technical forum not AH.

funnyname

ED E wrote: »

For the love of god please use proper English, this is a technical forum not AH.

Maybe he can't due to some disorder like dyslexia or something similar, ever think of that bud? They are a decent contributor don't knock em for not communicating in perfect queen's English.

Nollog

funnyname wrote: »

Maybe he can't due to some disorder like dyslexia or something similar, ever think of that bud? They are a decent contributor don't knock em for not communicating in perfect queen's English.

Or maybe they're not a product of an English-speaking country.

MajesticDonkey

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

That has a value to us as a whole, not just to getting a Kerry farmer access to YouTube.

You seem to be completely oblivious to the business and socio-economic opportunities good, reliable broadband provides. All you seem to be worried about is your own pocket.

bk

rob808 wrote: »

Well imagine said there investing 50 million in LTE A and the other 150 million in 3 or 5 years would that not affect NBP.They did that trail in kildare 100mb for purpose of showing it off for NBP doh was one guy on this form that said it was a failure for him not being able to get signal.

No, they wouldn't be able to meet the criteria for the NBP with LTE. It isn't just the upload and download speed, but also packet loss, latency, consistency, etc.

The Cush

The Cush wrote: »

Comreg plan to publish a consultation, in the second half of 2015, to consider the dual operation of copper and fibre platforms as well as a potential transition from copper to fibre access networks.

Comreg has published its consultation on the transition from copper to fibre access networks (Copper Switch-off).

http://www.comreg.ie/publications/transition_from_eir_s_copper_network.583.105043.p.html

Cathbadhian

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Goal. They can't order any country to do anything and in reality I doubt most European country's will meet that goal in 4 years. I just don't see the social value in it being a worthwhile government investment. If you told me we were transferring to a cashless society in 2020 and every premises in Ireland had to be wired so it could be achieved, I'd agree to that in a heartbeat. That has a value to us as a whole, not just to getting a Kerry farmer access to YouTube.

There's an obvious tilt to your reasoning... I'm a professional programmer who writes web applications and contributes heavily to open source (i.e. free to use) software. I'm a member of two international bodies, one a standards organisation, for my programming language of choice. I'm not a farmer, but I do live in a rural area where Eir's standard service has been unchanged since I first had an internet connection established. My house is in the amber category of the recent NBP map.

Seriously though, there are professional working folk out in the country. We just commute to your urban areas, and/or contribute to rent problems, office shortages, traffic congestion, put up with high time/operating costs, and generally curse the broadband gods for confining us.

And yes, it would be nice to use Youtube at home. It does something with videos? Like...like...a TV?

Tommy Lagahan

Can we keep the "whether or not its worth it to the taxpayer/EU/ sure them farmers out in the sticks don't give a damn" chat out of here, its been going on for months and I come here for news on the NBP not the same oul crap I've been listening to for years.
There was none of this stuff in the Eircom eFibre rollout thread when I was following it whilst living in Letterkenny, had great news on the progress of the cabs getting deployed.

damienirel

Tommy Lagahan wrote: »

Can we keep the "whether or not its worth it to the taxpayer/EU/ sure them farmers out in the sticks don't give a dung" chat out of here, its been going on for months and I come here for news on the NBP not the same oul crap I've been listening to for years.
There was none of this stuff in the Eircom eFibre rollout thread when I was following it whilst living in Letterkenny, had great news on the progress of the cabs getting deployed.

Yes any news on the progress of the thin blue lines across Ireland (eir extreme)
Or any news on Siro's rollout - seems to be very quiet of late. Ever since the governments announcements. Something must be happening on the ground?