NBP: National Broadband Plan Announced

rob808

MajesticDonkey wrote: »

Does the rolling out of more cabinets around the country not make rolling FTTH out much easier?

It bypass the cabinets and is connected straight to the exchange

ussjtrunks

how far is FTTH going to go past the exchange though, is it capable of 4-5 km or are people still going to be stuck on copper for along time?

The Cush

ussjtrunks wrote: »

how far is FTTH going to go past the exchange though, is it capable of 4-5 km or are people still going to be stuck on copper for along time?

Transmission distance of up to 20 km, then amplify again.

Stinicker

The Cush wrote: »

Transmission distance of up to 20 km, then amplify again.

Theoretically Eir could divest millions of Euro worth of property particularly Exchanges and also AEH's since KN Networks now have really taken over the lions share of build and Maintenance as alot of the former Civil servant status staff have retired down through the years.

Such feed distances could revolutionise Eir's infrastrucuture around the country and replace them with simple cabinets feeding POTS PSTN, VDSL and FTTH. It would be more efficient and streamlined. Even if fibre made no difference to speed etc, its other distance benefits make it the clear winner particularly for Eir. One or two cabinets can now do the work of entire exchanges and these can be shrunk even more to Pole mounted cabinets (Think ESB transformer size).

ED E

Stinicker wrote: »

Theoretically Eir could divest millions of Euro worth of property particularly Exchanges and also AEH's since KN Networks now have really taken over the lions share of build and Maintenance as alot of the former Civil servant status staff have retired down through the years.

Such feed distances could revolutionise Eir's infrastrucuture around the country and replace them with simple cabinets feeding POTS PSTN, VDSL and FTTH. It would be more efficient and streamlined. Even if fibre made no difference to speed etc, its other distance benefits make it the clear winner particularly for Eir. One or two cabinets can now do the work of entire exchanges and these can be shrunk even more to Pole mounted cabinets (Think ESB transformer size).

Sort of.

KNNs days are limited, eir started a recruitment drive for 300 front line and 60 admin jobs last year, once the majority of the rollout works are done eir will be able to scale back to in house works. KNNs primary function for build works is civils. They are trying to sell the larger part of Crown Alley in order to raise capital as they still have a bucketload of debt to deal with. Some of the Dublin AEHs could sell for a pretty figure but I suspect they're still needed, Sandyford is the test bed, and rural ones probably aren't worth selling.

Exchanges will be kept as they're still the agg points and often part of the cellular network too.

Dropping the copper network out of service is the biggest change that everyone should hope is accepted.

KOR101

MajesticDonkey wrote: »

Does the rolling out of more cabinets around the country not make rolling FTTH out much easier?

Eir have already made a decision about cabinets.

According to Moat, those additional 300,000 homes will benefit from a technological upheaval within Eir that will see it ditch cabinets and instead opt to provide fibre-to-the-home services direct to the exchange.
“While FTTC has been cost-effective in built-up areas, it is not economically viable to place thousands of cabinets in rural areas because of the low density of housing stock. Ireland is the second least densely populated country in Europe after Finland.”
The irony here is that rural communities’ previous geographic disadvantage when it came to getting broadband has the potential to work in their favour and result in superior speeds and services to their urban counterparts.
“The best technology is fibre-to-the-home where you connect with the exchange directly. That will be the architecture for the 300,000 premises and, as such, that can provide speeds of up to 1Gbps.
“To us, this is like avoiding what happened when Ireland built the M50 and instead create something future-proof for future generations.
“Cabinets are expensive to run and they don’t make sense in ribbon developments.


https://www.siliconrepublic.com/comms/2016/01/27/eir-ceo-interview-1gbps-broadband-fibre

KOR101

Fianna Fáil unveils “A Manifesto for Rural Ireland”

including.....

– Provide universal fibre broadband and mobile phone coverage.

https://www.fiannafail.ie/fianna-fail-unveils-a-manifesto-for-rural-ireland/

ED E

For the sake of civility might I suggest we keep political references to the DECNR for now? Otherwise we could end up getting very off track.

damienirel

oscarBravo wrote: »

They would love nothing more, but so far ComReg won't let them. There's a consultation ongoing on whether they should be allowed to do so.

A consultation on it - just do it already!:mad:

oscarBravo

damienirel wrote: »

A consultation on it - just do it already!:mad:

It's not quite that simple. It's all tied into the USO for telephone services.

bk

Well it does make sense for Eir to plunk a FTTC cab at the center of every village. It allows people living in the village and up to 1km out get decent speed almost overnight.

The positive way to look at this is that the people living in villages will get high speed broadband much faster then if they had to wait for FTTH. Potentially years faster.

The negative way to look at it is to say it is a quick, cheap and easy way for them to remove these villages from the NBP coverage and thus the possibility that they might lose them to SIRO, etc. under the NBP.

And as such it also strengthens Eir's hand in winning the NBP contract for the areas outside the town (as they will already have the fibre to the town in place) and weaken the hand of their competitors bids.

bk

Well it does make sense for Eir to plunk a FTTC cab at the center of every village. It allows people living in the village and up to 1km out get decent speed almost overnight.

The positive way to look at this is that the people living in villages will get high speed broadband much faster then if they had to wait for FTTH. Potentially years faster.

The negative way to look at it is to say it is a quick, cheap and easy way for them to remove these villages from the NBP coverage and thus the possibility that they might lose them to SIRO, etc. under the NBP.

And as such it also strengthens Eir's hand in winning the NBP contract for the areas outside the town (as they will already have the fibre to the town in place) and weaken the hand of their competitors bids.

fergus1001

I wonder will eir use the rural lines of fibre to boat people who will still be stuck on copper in the vacinity?

The Cush

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/broadband-plan-attracts-bidding-from-more-than-10-firms-1.2540356

More than 10 potential bidders have registered an interest in the Government’s rural broadband project through the State’s eTenders website.
...
Potential bidders will be invited by the department to take part in a competitive dialogue process next month.

“Following receipt of submissions, the department expects to bring a shortlist of interested parties to Government in April,” a Department of Communications spokeswoman said.

The department will select its preferred bidder or bidders near the end of the year with the first homes likely to be connected from the start of 2017, she added.

MajesticDonkey

It'll be interesting to see what happens now that Alex White isn't in government any more...

The Cush

MajesticDonkey wrote: »

It'll be interesting to see what happens now that Alex White isn't in government any more...

Ministers, who set the policy, come and go but civil servants, who implement the policy, go on forever. Business go on as usual until a new government is in place.

ED E

COMREG had a position open last year for an NBP lead, whoever took up that role will be either the hero or the vilan of the project.

pegasus1

The Cush wrote: »

Ministers, who set the policy, come and go but civil servants, who implement the policy, go on forever. Business go on as usual until a new government is in place.

The council executive in Kilkenny pushed the new bridge through...the newly elected council had no legal power to stop it..You are right, civil servants run the country...

bk

pegasus1 wrote: »

The council executive in Kilkenny pushed the new bridge through...the newly elected council had no legal power to stop it..You are right, civil servants run the country...

And rightfully so.

Infrastructure planning and development takes years, sometimes decades. You don't want every time some new gombeen politician comes along changing things every 4 years. We would get nothing done, just like happens in the US.

Interestingly we get this style of stable civil service from the Romans. While there were some years where there were 4 Roman Empires in one year, the empire continued to run smoothly as the day to day running and administration of the empire was handled by civil servants who remained in the same position for 25 years.

That isn't to say that the politicians can't stop a project, as we have seen with the cancellation and delay/peering down of Dart Underground and Metro North.

However having said that, watching the election coverage, it seems broadband was a major issue for those in rural Ireland. Often mentioned as a top 3 issue. So I don't see any incoming government messing with the NBP.

red_bairn

bk wrote: »

However having said that, watching the election coverage, it seems broadband was a major issue for those in rural Ireland. Often mentioned as a top 3 issue. So I don't see any incoming government messing with the NBP.

It's definitely an important issue mentioned by those in Wicklow:
http://stephendonnelly.ie/working-for-high-speed-broadband-for-wicklow-2/

Gonzo

big issue here in Meath as well. Apart from the centre of Navan, Kells, Trim, Ratoath, Dunshaughlin and Dunboyne etc the quality of broadband thorughout the rest of the county is shocking and meath's rural population is probably higher than most other parts of rural Ireland as we have such an amount of ribbon developments stretching for miles in every direction outwards from most villages/towns.

KOR101

From this mornings Independent....

In phone calls with deputies in the last 48 hours, Mr Martin has also been told to demand a major package for rural Ireland which focuses on broadband, jobs and roads.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/election-2016/election-2016-martin-seeks-end-to-water-charges-as-price-for-fine-gael-power-34500249.html

It's hard to see what he can demand beyond speeding up NBP (and there's little scope for that), but there is zero probability that Fianna Fail would hinder it.

fergus1001

KOR101 wrote:

It's hard to see what he can demand beyond speeding up NBP (and there's little scope for that), but there is zero probability that Fianna Fail would hinder it.

Didn't vote for them but if they did cancel this I would storm the count centers next time around and burn there votes

damienirel

Maybe they'll commission another report:D

rob808

http://www.independent.ie/business/technology/news/national-broadband-plan-delay-concerns-sparking-aggressive-tender-specs-34550542.html

damienirel

rob808 wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/business/technology/news/national-broadband-plan-delay-concerns-sparking-aggressive-tender-specs-34550542.html

Depressing reading but all fact.:mad:

Gonzo

damienirel wrote: »

Depressing reading but all fact.:mad:

I am not surprised in the slightest, its taken them years just to write report after report. Since the NBP was first announced Eir have built FTTC throughout our towns, cities and many villages. UPC/Virgin Media have rolled out 360meg broadband across most of urban Ireland and still all we have is a few reports to read from the NBP. If its taken years to write a few reports how many years is it gonna take between choosing the winning parties and then planning their rollout and then building it! I would say even 2022 is very optimistic as a finish date.

damienirel

Gonzo wrote: »

I am not surprised in the slightest, its taken them years just to write report after report. Since the NBP was first announced Eir have built FTTC throughout our towns, cities and many villages. UPC/Virgin Media have rolled out 360meg broadband across most of urban Ireland and still all we have is a few reports to read from the NBP. If its taken years to write a few reports how many years is it gonna take between choosing the winning parties and then planning their rollout and then building it! I would say even 2022 is very optimistic as a finish date.

Yeah it's so good in urban areas that we're 20th outta 28.

Gonzo

damienirel wrote: »

Yeah it's so good in urban areas that we're 20th outta 28.

our urban areas have good internet, most of Ireland is rural and broadband outside of urban areas is in shocking state or not even available in any form, that is why we are 20th out of 28. Hopefully we will begin to see a noticeable change by this time next year.

ED E

The 8% vs 25% statistic isn't an apples for apples comparison though, you can't compare our rural dwellers with those of Germany of France where dwellings are clustered.

At this point if you're on eirs list then things are looking quite good, but NBP areas should count on 2022 as the earliest not the latest that they'll be served. Time for more community BB schemes.

tsue921i8wljb3

ED E wrote: »

The 8% vs 25% statistic isn't an apples for apples comparison though, you can't compare our rural dwellers with those of Germany of France where dwellings are clustered.

At this point if you're on eirs list then things are looking quite good, but NBP areas should count on 2022 as the earliest not the latest that they'll be served. Time for more community BB schemes.

What is your reasoning for saying that non-eir areas will be pushed back to 2022 at the earliest?

ED E

I'm not saying they won't start at all till then, but if I don't expect much progress. If you're in their areas you should plan your setup based on that kind of timefrane (eg: Is it worth it for me to fit a 40ft high external antenna).

The tender process is only starting now, eir have already upset the other operators and all it takes is one operator to file a grievance at the process and it all gets put on hold for another review.

Right now there are two main groups with manpower, Eir+KNN and SIRO+ESB Contractors. To my knowledge ENET dont have many on payroll right now. Eir are busy with their current phase and FTTC works, ENET would spend ages ramping up and to date SIRO hasn't shown any major progress. In my view that means even if the two tenders were rubber stamped by this Christmas then you're still only going to start seeing real movement late 2018.

Gonzo

all I can see is delays. We won't know who gets the NBP till the end of this year and even that is not set in stone, it could be 2017 before we know anything.

Then I can only imagine how long its gonna take the winning parties to plan the rollout and then build it to every remaining home and premises that is not covered by Eir, Siro, Virgin Media. The most remote house up the side of a mountain will have to be provided for.

Then the NBP has to take place between all the areas that Eir and Siro have their projects set up such as the rural blue line scheme. They may even wait till the 300,000 Eir FTTH homes are complete before even starting the NBP.

Then there is the unforeseen such as planning problems, possible objections. As I said earlier 2022 is very optimistic as a finishing date, this one could push well beyond 2025 to finish every single property in the country. If Eir had not stepped in to take 300,000 homes away from the NBP, I would hate to see how long the NBP would take to complete.

tsue921i8wljb3

ED E wrote: »

I'm not saying they won't start at all till then, but if I don't expect much progress. If you're in their areas you should plan your setup based on that kind of timefrane (eg: Is it worth it for me to fit a 40ft high external antenna).

The tender process is only starting now, eir have already upset the other operators and all it takes is one operator to file a grievance at the process and it all gets put on hold for another review.

Right now there are two main groups with manpower, Eir+KNN and SIRO+ESB Contractors. To my knowledge ENET dont have many on payroll right now. Eir are busy with their current phase and FTTC works, ENET would spend ages ramping up and to date SIRO hasn't shown any major progress. In my view that means even if the two tenders were rubber stamped by this Christmas then you're still only going to start seeing real movement late 2018.

Thanks. It's a pessimistic outlook but definitely within the bounds of possibility.

rob808

Gonzo wrote: »

all I can see is delays. We won't know who gets the NBP till the end of this year and even that is not set in stone, it could be 2017 before we know anything.

Then I can only imagine how long its gonna take the winning parties to plan the rollout and then build it to every remaining home and premises that is not covered by Eir, Siro, Virgin Media. The most remote house up the side of a mountain will have to be provided for.

Then the NBP has to take place between all the areas that Eir and Siro have their projects set up such as the rural blue line scheme. They may even wait till the 300,000 Eir FTTH homes are complete before even starting the NBP.

Then there is the unforeseen such as planning problems, possible objections. As I said earlier 2022 is very optimistic as a finishing date, this one could push well beyond 2025 to finish every single property in the country. If Eir had not stepped in to take 300,000 homes away from the NBP, I would hate to see how long the NBP would take to complete.

Eir won't do that they just add them to there rollout just with it finishing by 2022 given they win a contract.

murphaph

The reality of the magnitude of such a deployment is beginning to dawn on people. This is what happens when hundreds of thousands of people decide they want to live in a dispersed way like this. It's so unsustainable that this lifestyle choice is forbidden in GB and Germany. People have to live with the consequences of their decisions, many of which were made during the Celtic tiger, i.e well after it was clear that broadband would be an important utility.

pegasus1

murphaph wrote: »

The reality of the magnitude of such a deployment is beginning to dawn on people. This is what happens when hundreds of thousands of people decide they want to live in a dispersed way like this. It's so unsustainable that this lifestyle choice is forbidden in GB and Germany. People have to live with the consequences of their decisions, many of which were made during the Celtic tiger, i.e well after it was clear that broadband would be an important utility.

Who are you to say people shouldn't live where they want to whether it is in a city, or in the country..Forbidden in GB, I think not...it's just now, there are green zones where no new dwelling can be built...If you want to live in a ghetto, so be it..;)

You said 'the magnitude of such a deployment is beginning to dawn on people' ....So when the electrical roll out happened, it didn't? There were loads of farms dotted all over the country side then...

Sure the Copper phone needs upgrading over time...cheaper to run Fibre now instead of copper...

There was no prolific expansion of ribbon development during the celtic tiger...Plenty of unsuitable sized apartments and also housing estates built in villages...

ED E

Rural electrification took 50 years! They knew the magnitude but we needed to support small time farmers back then. Now most small scale farms only exist due to subsidization.

pegasus1

ED E wrote: »

Rural electrification took 50 years! They knew the magnitude but we needed to support small time farmers back then. Now most small scale farms only exist due to subsidization.

Agreed...Off topic, Does anyone know the total amount of poles phone/electric there are...? Initial phase of running the fibre might not take that long, bar the actual supply of fibre...the run into the house is what will take time to complete..

murphaph

ED E wrote: »

Rural electrification took 50 years! They knew the magnitude but we needed to support small time farmers back then. Now most small scale farms only exist due to subsidization.

Yep AND we have many more premises to cover now since bungalow blitz began with the advent of popular car ownership in the 60s.

murphaph

pegasus1 wrote: »

Who are you to say people shouldn't live where they want to whether it is in a city, or in the country..Forbidden in GB, I think not...it's just now, there are green zones where no new dwelling can be built...If you want to live in a ghetto, so be it..;)

Lol. The "ghetto dwellers" are the ones you have your hand out to for your FTTH roll out! This has to be paid for and it will be paid for largely by urban Ireland. As for the "who am I..." stuff, well in civilised countries there tends to exist strict planning control. Or would you be OK if I bought the land beside your house and built a rendering plant on it? I mean, who are you to tell me where I can and can't establish a legitimate business?

See, planning control works for you too.

In GB you won't get planning for a one off outside an urban area any more. In Germany the building code strictly forbids dwellings outside the urban area ( which is defined by postcode and isn't some fuzzy boundary).

Johnboy1951

murphaph wrote: »

Lol. The "ghetto dwellers" are the ones you have your hand out to for your FTTH roll out! This has to be paid for and it will be paid for largely by urban Ireland. As for the "who am I..." stuff, well in civilised countries there tends to exist strict planning control. Or would you be OK if I bought the land beside your house and built a rendering plant on it? I mean, who are you to tell me where I can and can't establish a legitimate business?

See, planning control works for you too.

In GB you won't get planning for a one off outside an urban area any more. In Germany the building code strictly forbids dwellings outside the urban area ( which is defined by postcode and isn't some fuzzy boundary).

So you 'blame' the individuals who built homes in areas in which it was permitted?
The vast majority of those homes were built long before internet connectivity became a necessity (or even existed in lots of cases).

galljga1

I am grateful to the ghetto dwellers for subsidising my rural lifestyle but am a bit peeved that they are not doing enough to accelerate the rollout of FTTH.
I have a blue line going by my house. Is there anyway of ascertaining rollout timescales related to specific areas?

MajesticDonkey

murphaph wrote: »

In GB you won't get planning for a one off outside an urban area any more. In Germany the building code strictly forbids dwellings outside the urban area ( which is defined by postcode and isn't some fuzzy boundary).

Frankly I think that is utterly ridiculous. Freedoms are being taken from people left, right and centre. Anybody should be allowed build houses in rural areas if they so feel like it, but let them pay extra for the essential services.

Johnboy1951

MajesticDonkey wrote: »

Frankly I think that is utterly ridiculous. Freedoms are being taken from people left, right and centre. Anybody should be allowed build houses in rural areas if they so feel like it, but let them pay extra for the essential services.

Most already do ..... for services like water and sewage and even broadband, because the connection speed is nowhere close to what an urban dweller gets for the same cost.

MajesticDonkey

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Most already do ..... for services like water and sewage and even broadband, because the connection speed is nowhere close to what an urban dweller gets for the same cost.

Water, sewerage, electricity, all fine. Broadband is a different situation though. My belief is that good broadband should be available everywhere in the country, but for any new houses being built, charge a similar fee to that of getting electricity connected, but stop telling people where they can and can't live.

ED E

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Most already do ..... for services like water and sewage and even broadband, because the connection speed is nowhere close to what an urban dweller gets for the same cost.

Speed has nothing to do with broadband cost. Rural dwellers are often receiving broadband BELOW COST.

MajesticDonkey wrote: »

Water, sewerage, electricity, all fine. Broadband is a different situation though. My belief is that good broadband should be available everywhere in the country, but for any new houses being built, charge a similar fee to that of getting electricity connected, but stop telling people where they can and can't live.

A lovely idea but if eir ask people to pay 7-10k for a new connection they'd get the face eaten off them. ESB can get away with it as everyone HAS to connect, but with BB if on home connects and three around it don't then the cost for that one home is essentially x4.

Gonzo

The reality is we are finally getting a step closer to having a country where it doesnt matter where you life, you will get good broadband altho it's gonna take some time.

Eir's announcement of 300,000 homes really helps things alot for many people who live up to 6km from a town or village, in some cases as far as 8 to 10km away from a town. These 300,000 homes make up more than a 1/3rd of our homes that are surrounding by green fields and the majority of ribbon developments. Im fairly certain Eir will have these completed by 2020 if they plan to have 100,000 of these finished by this time next year.

That basically just leaves homes that are very spread out and mostly miles from nowhere left in the NBP. Some of these homes will be easy to provide for with FTTH if they are close to the Eir Rural scheme. However, many of them will be very difficult as homes can be up to 1km or more apart and I don't see how its profitable for anyone even under this scheme to run FTTH all the way for 1 home every couple of miles. In these cases some form of wireless will probably be the only way of connecting up certain homes.

Johnboy1951

ED E wrote: »

Speed has nothing to do with broadband cost. Rural dwellers are often receiving broadband BELOW COST.

It does when you are a user .... maybe not as a provider.

Broadband has long been sold at different prices for different speeds.

That alone means, for the end user, it has everything to do with it.

wexfordman2

ED E wrote: »

Speed has nothing to do with broadband cost. Rural dwellers are often receiving broadband BELOW COST.



A lovely idea but if eir ask people to pay 7-10k for a new connection they'd get the face eaten off them. ESB can get away with it as everyone HAS to connect, but with BB if on home connects and three around it don't then the cost for that one home is essentially x4.

Could you point me to where a rural dwellor is receiving broadband at below cost ?

As a rural dwellor myself I'd love to get some below cost broadband