NBP: National Broadband Plan Announced

Johnboy1951

Siena Gigantic Backyard wrote: »

More on the dipute between the ESB and eir:

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/eir-accuses-esb-of-delaying-roll-out-of-broadband-product-1.2671966

This is an interesting figure I had not seen previously ...

Another request relates to the connection of 23,000 individual homes in various remote locations, most of which are not hooked up to any telecommunications network.

marno21

Are these ex/current Rurtel areas?

The Cush

The Cush wrote: »

Comreg has published its consultation on the transition from copper to fibre access networks (Copper Switch-off).

http://www.comreg.ie/publications/transition_from_eir_s_copper_network.583.105043.p.html

Submissions to the consultation on the transition from a copper to fibre network were published on the Comreg site today

http://www.comreg.ie/_fileupload/publications/ComReg_1601s.pdf

rodge123

Well dam it anyway!

A neighbour called to the door today to tell me that the "Great Local TD" had got onto Imagine and convinced them to serve the area with their new 70mb lte broadband!

They will be taking 400 people on the mast.

I'll cry for a year if we now get excluded from the NBP and they go with a FTTH plan!

marno21

Can you tell us where that is please? Rough idea would do.

KOR101

rodge123 wrote: »

Well dam it anyway!

A neighbour called to the door today to tell me that the "Great Local TD" had got onto Imagine and convinced them to serve the area with their new 70mb lte broadband!

They will be taking 400 people on the mast.

I'll cry for a year if we now get excluded from the NBP and they go with a FTTH plan!

And, is that a new or existing mast?

pegasus1

Grow some trees to block the signal!

rodge123

KOR101 wrote: »

And, is that a new or existing mast?

I think it's a new mast.
I'm half way between Summerhill and kilcock in Meath.

rodge123

pegasus1 wrote: »

Grow some trees to block the signal!

How can I find out where the mast is?
I cant see any registered to Imagine close to our area.

pegasus1

rodge123 wrote: »

How can I find out where the mast is?
I cant see any registered to Imagine close to our area.

would they use clarkstown mast?

rodge123

pegasus1 wrote: »

would they use clarkstown mast?

Looking at siteviewer, there appears to only be an Meteor mast and an RTE transmitter there.

I scrolled though meath county councils map of planning applications even, seeing if I could spot any recent planning requests. Maybe put an objection in and fall out with all my neighbours!

KOR101

The Department is really standing up against the BS.......

State may need to extend National Broadband Plan
Up to 80,000 homes unable to connect to broadband networks without costly interventions

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/state-may-need-to-extend-national-broadband-plan-1.2691085

Cuddlesworth

KOR101 wrote: »

The Department is really standing up against the BS.......

State may need to extend National Broadband Plan
Up to 80,000 homes unable to connect to broadband networks without costly interventions

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/state-may-need-to-extend-national-broadband-plan-1.2691085

I was curious as to when that would crop up, I have heard of entire streets before with 1-2 meg DSL because a neighbor at the start didn't want coaxial cables across their house. Didn't think it was that bad though, most I know are done at this point.

pegasus1

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

I was curious as to when that would crop up, I have heard of entire streets before with 1-2 meg DSL because a neighbor at the start didn't want coaxial cables across their house. Didn't think it was that bad though, most I know are done at this point.

That was cablelink aka upc aka virgin media...
In my view the article should be about those connected directly to the exchange which are not connected to nearby cabinets etc.

daraghwal

pegasus1 wrote: »

That was cablelink aka upc aka virgin media...
In my view the article should be about those connected directly to the exchange which are not connected to nearby cabinets etc.

Yeah. Imagine the amount of people that could be connected if they bothered to just rewire them to the nearest cab once it was upgraded. I know it's easier said than done but still!

KOR101

The shortlist and ownership model were both said to be decided by the end of June. Presumably this mornings cabinet meeting is the last chance to meet that deadline.

legocrazy505

KOR101 wrote: »

The shortlist and ownership model were both said to be decided by the end of June. Presumably this mornings cabinet meeting is the last chance to meet that deadline.

Since when have they ever not gone over a deadline? :rolleyes:

ACLFC7

There was a presentation/meeting last Thursday 23rd of June https://twitter.com/AnneRabbitte/status/745963541283344384

Is this anything significant or are these presentations a regular thing?

tsue921i8wljb3

The Times reckon the ownership model will be announced this week.

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/cantillon-questions-over-broadband-ownership-1.2701966

KOR101

Siena Gigantic Backyard wrote: »

The Times reckon the ownership model will be announced this week.

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/cantillon-questions-over-broadband-ownership-1.2701966

Suspiciously like a re-write of this.....

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/national-broadband-plan-must-not-be-all-bark-and-no-bytes-0gv8lv5g5

pegasus1

Siena Gigantic Backyard wrote: »

The Times reckon the ownership model will be announced this week.

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/cantillon-questions-over-broadband-ownership-1.2701966

ACLFC7 wrote: »

There was a presentation/meeting last Thursday 23rd of June https://twitter.com/AnneRabbitte/status/745963541283344384

Is this anything significant or are these presentations a regular thing?

ACLFC7 wrote: »

There was a presentation/meeting last Thursday 23rd of June https://twitter.com/AnneRabbitte/status/7459635412833

Anne Rabbit....any relation to Pat

KOR101

It's hard to see how Imagine customers can be included in the intervention area. Whatever about difficulties about meeting the criteria to change the map for future customers, existing customers are surely out.

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-16-2363_en.htm

tsue921i8wljb3

KOR101 wrote: »

It's hard to see how Imagine customers can be included in the intervention area. Whatever about difficulties about meeting the criteria to change the map for future customers, existing customers are surely out.

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-16-2363_en.htm

What an enormous cluster**** it will be if that happens. It could render the whole project uneconomic. Hopefully informed technical opinion is sought to prove Imagine's service cannot "ensure speeds above 30 Mbps". There is a knowledgeable poster on the Imagine thread claiming the service could be running at a 50:1 contention ratio guaranteeing each subscriber just 0.6 Mbps.

xxyyzz

KOR101 wrote: »

It's hard to see how Imagine customers can be included in the intervention area. Whatever about difficulties about meeting the criteria to change the map for future customers, existing customers are surely out.

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-16-2363_en.htm

From what I've seen of imagine LTE it is only available in areas where FTTC is currently available, in Kerry anyway they don't seem to cover any rural areas despite what they say.

Gonzo

Imagine LTE is not fibre, , just after reading about the poor congestion thats already starting to happen during peak times.

It would be a disaster if customers with this service were taken out of the NBP or if Imagine won a contract. Right now there is only a handful of customers and the service is already strained, what would it be like if they won a contact and everyone in a given area signed up to it! This product also has a shelf life of about 5 years and unless there is some sort of upgrade plan with imagine, customers will be stuck on it for the next 10+ years.

damienirel

Totally agree LTE is just 4g its totally limited it might be the best some people can get now but it's a pretty poor substitute for a wired connection. I don't see how it can take the wind out of fibre's sails tbh. Fibre will happen - just that the sooner the better for every web user in Ireland. At least eir are rolling out true fibre albeit on a very slow basis. I think the last number I read was 10,000 customers for all of Rep. Which is dismal in 2016. However with all the faffing at government/comreg/openeir/siro level I don't see it improving anytime soon. But this government seem to be totally inept even worse than the last few we've had - the lack of any vision for the country is astounding and all we have is a bunch of populist vote grabbers.

marno21

damienirel wrote: »

Totally agree LTE is just 4g its totally limited it might be the best some people can get now but it's a pretty poor substitute for a wired connection. I don't see how it can take the wind out of fibre's sails tbh. Fibre will happen - just that the sooner the better for every web user in Ireland. At least eir are rolling out true fibre albeit on a very slow basis. I think the last number I read was 10,000 customers for all of Rep. Which is dismal in 2016. However with all the faffing at government/comreg/openeir/siro level I don't see it improving anytime soon. But this government seem to be totally inept even worse than the last few we've had - the lack of any vision for the country is astounding and all we have is a bunch of populist vote grabbers.

Open eir are concentrating on FTTC at present, having passed 12,000 homes in the last 2 weeks.

KOR101

The best you can say is that presumably the rules for redrawing the map (which would appear to rule Imagine out) were drawn up by advisors with knowledge about how the EU evaluates plans. It's just that I don't see anything about future proofing in the earlier announcement.

Support will be granted only in areas where currently no Next Generation Access network exists, i.e. networks that can ensure speeds above 30 mbps, or is due to be deployed in the next three years (so-called "white" areas). To identify these areas, Italy has carried out detailed mapping and a public consultation.

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-16-2363_en.htm

KOR101

Decision time.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/naughten-vows-quick-rural-internet-by-2019-njgmbbhjb

daraghwal

Can someone paste the rest of the article if they already subscribe? It seems like they could be about to get the finger out!

ItHurtsWhenIP

KOR101 wrote: »

Decision time.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/naughten-vows-quick-rural-internet-by-2019-njgmbbhjb

ED E

As if their business model wasnt dead already....

Want the full article and instant website access?

/OT

tsue921i8wljb3

KOR101 wrote: »

Decision time.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/naughten-vows-quick-rural-internet-by-2019-njgmbbhjb

I believe it is just the ownership model being announced not the acual contractor(s). Although I haven't access to the full article so may be incorrect.

garroff

Almost half a million rural homes and businesses will get high-speed broadband within three years under new contract terms going to the cabinet this week, Denis Naughten, the communications minister, has promised.

He is to ask the government to approve a funding model to bring high-speed internet to 750,000 rural premises currently beyond the reach of fast broadband.

Broadband speeds were an election issue in dozens of rural constituencies last February, and a core demand made in government talks by the Independent Alliance and Naughten’s own informal rural alliance of TDs.

“People in rural Ireland are sick of being told, ‘You are going to have high-speed broadband next month,’” Naughten told The Sunday Times. “No one actually believes it until they can plug in their computer and get speeds of 30 megabits per second plus.

“It will take up to five years to complete it for the whole population. Some of the contractors are saying they can do it within three years. If they can, brilliant, but we have tried not to overpromise on this.”


Naughten has repeated his commitment to remain an independent minister for the duration of this Dail term, but did not rule out a return to Fine Gael under a new leader at a later date.

Faced with two options to fund high-speed internet outside urban centres, the minister is expected to recommend a “gap-funding” model, where the state pays the successful broadband contractor a fee to build the network, but the firm retains ownership.

The fee is calculated as the gap between the cost of building the network and the return the contractor would get from commercially viable broadband in an urban setting.

Fianna Fail will oppose gap-funding the network, preferring a “full concession” model whereby the state pays towards the capital cost of laying the network and takes ownership after 25 years.

Gap funding — or “commercial stimulus” — was recommended as the most cost-effective model by the consultancy KPMG in a report to the government last year.

It said the full-concession approach would reduce the exchequer’s capital funding budget by €500-€600m over the next six years.


Naughten says: ‘It will take up to five years to complete it for the whole population’
LAURA HUTTON/PHOTOCALL IRELAND
Timmy Dooley, the communications spokesman for Fianna Fail, said it was vital to protect the state investment in new infrastructure and not repeat mistakes made in the sale of Eircom, which “impeded the rollout of broadband”.

Dooley believes that the full-concession model “would best ensure the future needs of homes and businesses” while protecting the state’s investment “to the best extent possible”.

Naughten said the decision on a funding model is not easy, but the need for upfront capital for the concession model is a key factor. “The big downside to owning the network is that you have significant capital costs up front, and does that mean you are competing with other capital projects?” he said. “And in 26 years’ time, is the technology we are building today still worth something? I don’t know.”

On the question of his own political future, Naughten insisted he had no plans to rejoin Fine Gael.

He left the party in 2011 in a dispute over funding for Roscommon hospital.

His grandfather was a founding member of Cumann na nGaedhael (Fine Gael’s predecessor) while his late father, Liam, was a Fine Gael TD and his brother, John, is a Fine Gael councillor in Roscommon.

The minister has told supporters he will remain independent for the duration of this Dail term.

“I don’t think anyone can promise beyond a term. Fianna Fail or Fine Gael didn’t promise a manifesto for two general elections. No one knows what is around the corner, when the election going to be. Is it going to be next week, next year, five years’ time? A lot of things can change,” said Naughten, who has no plans to join a party.

tsue921i8wljb3

And in 26 years’ time, is the technology we are building today still worth something? I don’t know.

Jesus and he is Minister for Communications.

Johnboy1951

Siena Gigantic Backyard wrote: »

Jesus and he is Minister for Communications.

Yes, but at least he does not pretend to be able to see into the distant future!

tsue921i8wljb3

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Yes, but at least he does not pretend to be able to see into the distant future!

Hardly distant in infrastructure terms. A full fibre network would have a much longer service life.

Johnboy1951

Siena Gigantic Backyard wrote: »

Hardly distant in infrastructure terms. A full fibre network would have a much longer service life.

25 years is a very very long time where technology is concerned.

The copper has lasted, but is it suitable now?

None of us knows what might be the situation in 25+ years.

daraghwal

The internet began just over 25 years ago. How can anyone tell if fibre is going to last more than 25 years?

oscarBravo

daraghwal wrote: »

The internet began just over 25 years ago. How can anyone tell if fibre is going to last more than 25 years?

A single wavelength on a single fibre pair has more capacity than the entire usable radio spectrum - and that's with today's technology, which (compared with the insanely complicated QAM coding schemes used in radio) isn't that far advanced from morse code.

I don't think it's unreasonable to predict that fibre will fulfil our needs for 25 years. It's certainly a safer bet than wireless.

That said, I don't necessarily disagree with the gap funding model.

ACLFC7

"Fianna Fail will oppose gap-funding the network"
Is this likely to cause a significant delay?

Does it matter to us whether they choose to use a gap-funding or a full-concession model?

bk

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

25 years is a very very long time where technology is concerned.

The copper has lasted, but is it suitable now?

None of us knows what might be the situation in 25+ years.

daraghwal wrote: »

The internet began just over 25 years ago. How can anyone tell if fibre is going to last more than 25 years?

Of course we do! Fiber is the technology we will be using for the next 100 years and beyond.

Absolutely nothing else has the speed and capacity of fibre. The whole internet is built on fibre.

The maths and physics and limitations behind copper and fibre have been known for more then 50 years.

It was simply cost and efficient computing power that was holding fiber back from consumer rollout. The people in networking R&D labs can absolutely tell you what we will be using 100 years from now.

Johnboy1951

bk wrote: »

Of course we do! Fiber is the technology we will be using for the next 100 years and beyond.

Absolutely nothing else has the speed and capacity of fibre. The whole internet is built on fibre.

The maths and physics and limitations behind copper and fibre have been known for more then 50 years.

It was simply cost and efficient computing power that was holding fiber back from consumer rollout. The people in networking R&D labs can absolutely tell you what we will be using 100 years from now.

I did not realise there were so many soothsayers working in R&D!

Nobody has any information on what might or might not be developed within the next 100 years.

It is arrogant nonsense to presume to know.

oscarBravo

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

I did not realise there were so many soothsayers working in R&D!

Nobody has any information on what might or might not be developed within the next 100 years.

It is arrogant nonsense to presume to know.

OK, let's put it this way: a fibre pair to your home, using technology that's already available today, can easily deliver 40Gb/s. Will we need more than that in 25 years' time? I don't know, but it doesn't seem likely.

ED E

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

It is arrogant nonsense to presume to know.

Nobody needs to say what technology will do, physics principles mean we know theres huge growth capacity even if we dont know exactly how to implement it yet.

bk

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

I did not realise there were so many soothsayers working in R&D!

Nobody has any information on what might or might not be developed within the next 100 years.

It is arrogant nonsense to presume to know.

No it is not, all the broadband technologies we use today were developed 40 years ago, DSL, Fiber, etc. It was only the limitations of affordable computing power that stopped them from being deployed [1]

For instance, take Shannons Law, which describes the maximum about of data that can be transmitted over a specified bandwidth with noise present, one of the most import laws that defines the maximum capacity of all broadband and wireless technologies. Well it was defined back in the 1940's and was in fact just a formulation of work done in the 1920's!

All the technologies we use unsurprisingly obey the laws of physics! Fibre use lasers, which is basically light waves, which unsurprisingly travel at the speed of light, the fastest anything can travel in the universe [2]

It isn't that people who work in R&D are soothsayers, it is their job to develop new technologies! The theoretical mathematicians and physicists develop the theories for the technologies of the future, decades before we are actually able to commercially deploy them. Then the engineers in the R&D labs take those ideas and try to implement in the lab first. It then normally takes another decade or two before the lab work progresses far enough to make it commercially viable.

Non of this is "magic", the technologies we use today are the results of decades of development in R&D labs. Those same people can absolutely tell you what we are likely to be using 25 years from now and beyond, if you care to listen!

[1] For instance, their isn't anything magic about VDSL, DSL technology was developed out of technology that was being used by the BBC to transmit video between studios in the 1950's. What makes VDSL "hard" is that it takes a lot of computing power. Back in the 1950's or even the 1980's it would have taken a computer the size of a two story house to power VDSL. Today we fit the same computing power in a VDSL cabinet. Even though VDSL technology existed in the 80's, clearly it wouldn't have been commercially possible to build a two story exchange at each location where we currently put VDSL cabs. It was breakthroughs in affordable computing power thanks to Moores Law that has allowed VDSL to be commercially deployed.

[2] Not that FTTH won't be able to deliver more data in the future, it absolutely will, it just won't be able to deliver a single packet any faster, due to the limitations of the speed of light. They will however be able to deliver more bandwidth simultaneously, by using more advanced lasers to deliver more light frequencies simultaneously and thus more data. BTW again these advanced lasers already exist today, but the problem is they are very expensive, so mostly only used for backhaul fibers and high end enterprise class fiber. Again the trick is to reduce the manufacturing cost of these lasers so that they eventually become cheap enough to install in individual homes.

The point is, for anyone who works in the networking and telecoms industry, they absolutely know what technologies will be used in the next 25 years and beyond.

KOR101

Akamai's State of the Internet Report -1st QTR 2016

The only country not increasing its speed is Ireland, the report says. It actually saw a 14 per cent decline, to 14.4 Mbps.

https://content.akamai.com/PG6575-q1-2016-soti-connectivity-report.html

Johnboy1951

bk wrote:

Fiber is the technology we will be using for the next 100 years and beyond.

There is no way I know to prove the accuracy of that statement at this time.

oscarBravo wrote:

OK, let's put it this way: a fibre pair to your home, using technology that's already available today, can easily deliver 40Gb/s. Will we need more than that in 25 years' time? I don't know, but it doesn't seem likely.

Exactly my point! None of us know, and anyone who states categorically that they do know, is guessing

bk wrote:

all the broadband technologies we use today were developed 40 years ago, DSL, Fiber, etc.

So you believe there will be no broadband technologies developed in the next forty years and in common use then and later?
Some prediction!

bk wrote:

The point is, for anyone who works in the networking and telecoms industry, they absolutely know what technologies will be used in the next 25 years and beyond.

That is soothsayer territory!

oscarBravo

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Exactly my point! None of us know, and anyone who states categorically that they do know, is guessing

By the same token, none of us know that this country will even exist in a year's time, so it's a waste of time for the government to produce a budget!

Wait, that's just stupid. We have to plan for the future. We can't know what will happen in the future, but we can do our best to predict the future based on what we know now.

Do we know for a fact that fibre will serve our needs in 25 years' time? Of course not. Can we confidently predict that it will? Of course. We may be wrong, but refusing to plan for the future based on what we can confidently predict now is a mug's game.

So you believe there will be no broadband technologies developed in the next forty years and in common use then and later?
Some prediction!

Let's turn the question around. Given the phenomenal growth in capacity that we already know fibre will be capable of delivering, what's the incentive to look for a different transmission medium? Is any such transmission medium even on the radar?

Johnboy1951

Yes we can come to an opinion, based on what we know today, and what we believe are the likely outcomes for the short to medium term future. We can never know!

It is the unequivocal statements of knowledge that I object to and call nonsense.