NBP: National Broadband Plan Announced

jd

9726_9726 wrote: »

As for order provisioning, etc, why would this be any different to the UG, etc?

You may be correct regarding the very smallest WISPs but they won't survive.

I know this, but the question really is what are the issues with the smaller ISPs?

There have been additional complexities to make sure local providers can avail of the infrastructure

All one can do is surmise unless there are publicly available submissions

Gonzo

great to hear that it will be FTTH all the way, not surprised by another delay and the estimated delivery time beteeen 2018-2023 is still very optimistic imo, it will be beyond 2025 before the last premises are being connected, further delays are likely and planning problems etc. Were basically looking at 10 years, or possibly more for Ireland's broadband divide to be fully fixed.

legocrazy505

Gonzo wrote: »

great to hear that it will be FTTH all the way, not surprised by another delay and the estimated delivery time beteeen 2018-2023 is still very optimistic imo, it will be beyond 2025 before the last premises are being connected, further delays are likely and planning problems etc. Were basically looking at 10 years, or possibly more for Ireland's broadband divide to be fully fixed.

So long as they get the people who are on the borders of villages, towns and cities covered first I'm fine with some delays. If they suddenly decide middle of nowhere Kerry gets priority because the Healy-Raes live there I will lose all hope in the plan.

superloopy

I'm guessing you don't live in Kerry? Where most can't get 3G signal or a clear mobile signal to make a call. Or a bus service. Or a large, well maintained road.

It's easy to throw ignorant Healy Rae comments about. It doesn't help anybody.

We are all in the same boat and a person living in Kerry should have as much right to a working broadband connection as you.

It should be the same as electricity. Even if cost me more to install it I would pay it in the morning.

I'm guessing you have a 4G signal on your phone?

Perspective and some level of empathy would make your argument a little easier to read.

Gonzo

I think his point was more towards TD's getting their own neighborhood looked after before everyone else which would be unfair.

BandMember

Gonzo wrote: »

I think his point was more towards TD's getting their own neighborhood looked after before everyone else which would be unfair.

I would think that is exactly what he meant. In this very shaky Dáil, there's a very good chance to you will politicians on both sides of the house getting projects (large or small) done in their local area as nobody wants another election anytime soon so the Government have to keep the opposition happy by throwing them a few good news stories while they will have to do the same with their own TD's along with the Independent Ministers. So, be ready for a lot of photo ops and a lot of ribbon cuttings.... :rolleyes:

legocrazy505

superloopy wrote: »

I'm guessing you don't live in Kerry? Where most can't get 3G signal or a clear mobile signal to make a call. Or a bus service. Or a large, well maintained road.

It's easy to throw ignorant Healy Rae comments about. It doesn't help anybody.

We are all in the same boat and a person living in Kerry should have as much right to a working broadband connection as you.

It should be the same as electricity. Even if cost me more to install it I would pay it in the morning.

I'm guessing you have a 4G signal on your phone?

Perspective and some level of empathy would make your argument a little easier to read.

I actually don't have a 4G signal. My point is made on the logical basis that when it comes to choosing the places to cover first the easier places will be those near villages or towns who currently receive a poor excuse of "broadband". I live less than 1km from a village, the village is getting FTTC that I more than likely won't benefit from.

It would make sense to do those kinds of areas first over someone up a hill with no village or neighbour insight. My fear is the usual parish pump politics that goes on we'll see TDs doing backroom deals to make sure their pal John who owns a farm in the middle of nowhere gets covered before for example a string of 100 homes running along one road coming out of a village.

Given how long the NBP will take it's vital that the department and contract winner set priorities straight in regards to who is first in line.

ItHurtsWhenIP

legocrazy505 wrote: »

I actually don't have a 4G signal. My point is made on the logical basis that when it comes to choosing the places to cover first the easier places will be those near villages or towns who currently receive a poor excuse of "broadband". I live less than 1km from a village, the village is getting FTTC that I more than likely won't benefit from.

It would make sense to do those kinds of areas first over someone up a hill with no village or neighbour insight. My fear is the usual parish pump politics that goes on we'll see TDs doing backroom deals to make sure their pal John who owns a farm in the middle of nowhere gets covered before for example a string of 100 homes running along one road coming out of a village.

Given how long the NBP will take it's vital that the department and contract winner set priorities straight in regards to who is first in line.

If you are 1KM from the exchange, you'll get eVDSL. The limit is 1.5KM unvectored.

KOR101

Parish pump politics is built into the NBP process. Areas that think they would benefit most from early intervention are permitted to make a case.

legocrazy505

ItHurtsWhenIP wrote: »

If you are 1KM from the exchange, you'll get eVDSL. The limit is 1.5KM unvectored.

Yet we have thousands of cases where people living within a few hundreds of metres away and don't get efibre. Your distance to the cabinet doesn't mean you are guaranteed to get anything.

ED E

legocrazy505 wrote: »

Yet we have thousands of cases where people living within a few hundreds of metres away and don't get efibre. Your distance to the cabinet doesn't mean you are guaranteed to get anything.

To the cabinet, its a gamble. To an eVDSL exchange its almost guaranteed. Depends on which legocrazy is talking about.

rob808

Gonzo wrote: »

great to hear that it will be FTTH all the way, not surprised by another delay and the estimated delivery time beteeen 2018-2023 is still very optimistic imo, it will be beyond 2025 before the last premises are being connected, further delays are likely and planning problems etc. Were basically looking at 10 years, or possibly more for Ireland's broadband divide to be fully fixed.

well it not FTTH all the way isolated areas were it cost to much to bring FTTH will get fixed wireless but most of rural Ireland will get FTTH,which is brilliant now if they could just get the NBP out the door .

legocrazy505

ED E wrote: »

To the cabinet, its a gamble. To an eVDSL exchange its almost guaranteed. Depends on which legocrazy is talking about.

Yeah it's going to be to the cabinet. Exchange is too far away and it's already fibre-enabled.

oscarBravo

rob808 wrote: »

well it not FTTH all the way isolated areas were it cost to much to bring FTTH will get fixed wireless but most of rural Ireland will get FTTH,which is brilliant now if they could just get the NBP out the door .

I can see I'm going to have to keep beating this drum: fixed wireless isn't a panacea. There's a bizarre belief out there that any premises that are hard to connect with fibre will be easy to connect wirelessly.

Take it from someone who has spent more than a decade working toward blanket wireless coverage of just one county: it pretty much can't be done. And yet, pretty much every house in the country has wires going to it.

ItHurtsWhenIP

legocrazy505 wrote: »

Yeah it's going to be to the cabinet. Exchange is too far away and it's already fibre-enabled.

Sorry. I misinterpreted your reference to FTTC in the village to be eVDSL.

Yep - that's a gamble.

Gonzo

legocrazy505 wrote: »

Yet we have thousands of cases where people living within a few hundreds of metres away and don't get efibre. Your distance to the cabinet doesn't mean you are guaranteed to get anything.

I would say the majority of rural folk live within 2km of a town/village boundary like myself, along ribbon developments. Very few of us can get eVDSL or vectored VDSL, even those within 2km of a cabinet simply aren't connected up to one. These areas are so close to great broadband speeds, but instead have terrible speeds, mostly less than 10 meg and in some cases no form of DSL whatsoever. While these areas are classed as rural, there are still a lot of people living there if you add up all the towns and villages in Ireland with clusters of housing just outside the urban areas radiating from towns along several roads. Most of these areas are now under Eir's rural blue line plan.

rob808

https://www.siliconrepublic.com/comms/national-broadband-plan-delay-2

Gonzo

rob808 wrote: »

https://www.siliconrepublic.com/comms/national-broadband-plan-delay-2

there are at least 2 delays announced per year for the NBP and this won't be the last either. I reckon it will be at least 2019 before any real work starts. Eir will probably have their 300,000 premises wired up by then too.

rob808

Gonzo wrote: »

there are at least 2 delays announced per year for the NBP and this won't be the last either. I reckon it will be at least 2019 before any real work starts. Eir will probably have their 300,000 premises wired up by then too.

I say it start in early 2018 we should know the winning bidder(s) by late 2017.They just need more time it mainly eir,siro,Enet asking for more time which is causing the delay and wisps wanting to know cost of accessibility of the NBP network.I think it be very bad if it start in 2019 it be good if it starts in late 2017.

KOR101

rob808 wrote: »

hey just need more time it mainly eir,siro,Enet asking for more time which is causing the delay

That's a good point. Eir certainly want delay. SIRO is also likely to want more time to get their act together. Meanwhile, this is the Minister yesterday.

When asked about the delays to the rollout, the minister stated that private operators are investing €1.4 million a day into their broadband offerings, claiming that the National Broadband Plan is stimulating the market.

http://www.newstalk.com/We-want-to-bring-fibre-to-peoples-doors-within-two-years-of-work-starting

ED E

KOR101 wrote: »

That's a good point. Eir certainly want delay. SIRO is also likely to want more time to get their act together. Meanwhile, this is the Minister yesterday.

When asked about the delays to the rollout, the minister stated that private operators are investing €1.4 million a day into their broadband offerings, claiming that the National Broadband Plan is stimulating the market.

http://www.newstalk.com/We-want-to-bring-fibre-to-peoples-doors-within-two-years-of-work-starting

Naughten keeps insisting that "every single premises" will be covered by the NBP so I'd listen to Trump faster than I'd listen to him.

pegasus1

ED E wrote: »

Naughten keeps insisting that "every single premises" will be covered by the NBP so I'd listen to Trump faster than I'd listen to him.

Serious?

KOR101

Minister for Communications, Climate Action and Environment Denis Naughten said this week that the June 2017 deadline to award the National Broadband Plan (NBP) contracts would be missed.

"Earlier this year, before I came into office, the Department announced that it would be June 2017 before contract(s) were awarded under the NBP," Minister Naughten said in response to a parliamentary question from Fine Gael Kerry TD Brenand Griffin. "The bidders in the process have recently indicated that they may need more time to conclude the procurement process."

http://www.farmersjournal.ie/more-delays-for-broadband-rollout-231086

KOR101

The Department is now in a formal procurement process to select a company or companies who will roll-out a new high speed broadband network to the over 750,000 premises in Ireland, covering 100,000km of road network and 96% of the land area of Ireland. Since bidders were invited to participate in dialogue with the Department, there have been approximately 150 hours of meetings, with considerable more interaction to follow over the coming months.

The three bidders in the procurement process have formally indicated that they are proposing a predominantly fibre-to–the home solution for rural Ireland. This means that householders and businesses can expect speeds of not just 30 Mbps but up to 1 Gbps with businesses availing of symmetrical upload and download speeds, in a solution that will endure for 25 years and beyond. It will also effectively reverse the urban rural divide by giving rural businesses and homes access to a technology which is not widely available in our towns and cities at present.

Earlier this year, before I came into office, the Department announced that it would be June 2017 before contract(s) were awarded under the NBP. The bidders in the process have recently indicated that they may need more time to conclude the procurement process.

The timing of each stage of the procurement continues to be dependent on a range of factors including the complexities that may be encountered by the procurement team, and bidders, during the procurement process. Bidders need adequate time to prepare detailed proposals and their final formal bids and get the relevant shareholder and funding approvals at key stages of the process. It is also important to ensure that risks in this multi-million euro procurement are carefully managed. I do not propose to comment any further at this juncture, given the sensitivity of discussions in the procurement process. I can assure the Deputy however, that the procurement process is being intensively managed, to ensure an outcome that delivers a future-proofed network that serves homes and businesses across Ireland, for at least 25 years.

As part of the Department's extensive stakeholder consultations in 2015, telecommunications service providers indicated that it could take 3-5 years to rollout a network of the scale envisaged under the NBP. It is however open to bidder(s) to suggest more aggressive timescales as part of their bids. As part of the competitive process, the Department will engage with winning bidder(s) on the best rollout strategy, in order to target areas of particularly poor service, business needs and/or high demand. This will need to be balanced with the most efficient network rollout plan. A prioritisation programme will be put in place in this regard, in consultation with the Minister for Arts, Heritage, Regional, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs. A detailed rollout plan for the network will be published once contract(s) are in place.

The Programme for Government also commits to measures to assist in the rollout of the network once a contract is awarded. In this regard, Minister Humphreys is leading on the establishment of two regional action groups, working with Local Authorities, Local Enterprise Offices and other relevant agencies to help accelerate the broadband network build in rural Ireland, once a contract(s) has been awarded.

In the meantime, my Department continues to liaise closely with industry and relevant other Departments and agencies to assist in the commercial deployment of telecommunications networks. The commercial telecommunications sector has invested over €2bn in upgrading and modernising networks which support the provision of high speed broadband and mobile telecoms services. These investments will further improve the coverage and quality of broadband and mobile voice and data services throughout the country.

In line with commitments in the Programme for Government I established a Mobile Phone and Broadband Taskforce with my colleague Minister Humphreys in July 2016. The Taskforce will recommend practical actions that can be taken in the short-term to improve mobile phone and broadband access in Ireland, working with Government Departments, Local Authorities, ComReg, State Agencies, the telecoms industry and other key stakeholders. The work of the taskforce will also assist Local Authorities in preparing for the rollout of the new NBP network once contract(s) are in place. I expect that Minister Humphreys and I will bring proposals to Government by the end of 2016, on foot of the Taskforce's report.

https://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2016-10-12a.243&s=national+broadband+plan

legocrazy505

To be fair to them they do seem more serious about it than the countless other plans they've come up with. Delays of a plan of this scale is annoying but to be expected.

damienirel

legocrazy505 wrote: »

To be fair to them they do seem more serious about it than the countless other plans they've come up with. Delays of a plan of this scale is annoying but to be expected.

Agree that they seem more serious about it - but I still don't understand why it should take any longer than they expected initially - what has changed exactly it's not as if brexit effected it? It all seems a bit suspect.

Johnboy1951

damienirel wrote: »

Agree that they seem more serious about it - but I still don't understand why it should take any longer than they expected initially - what has changed exactly it's not as if brexit effected it? It all seems a bit suspect.

It seems that those applying for the contract/s need more time to get their proposals sorted and costed ... and approved internally I guess.

Not really surprising, as commercial entities like to get things as clear as possible before committing themselves.

legocrazy505

damienirel wrote: »

Agree that they seem more serious about it - but I still don't understand why it should take any longer than they expected initially - what has changed exactly it's not as if brexit effected it? It all seems a bit suspect.

You have to remember though that this isn't a sign and it's all good sort of contract. They are trying to come up with a contract for three different bidders while at the same time figuring out which one is offering the best terms. Nothing has affected it but I reckon they've been overly optimistic about how quickly they can get the contract(s) wrapped up. Remember this is potentially a 25 year deal, there's a lot to discuss with something that will last that long e.g what happens if the network needs a nationwide upgrade to something like 10gbps.

murphaph

damienirel wrote: »

Agree that they seem more serious about it - but I still don't understand why it should take any longer than they expected initially - what has changed exactly it's not as if brexit effected it? It all seems a bit suspect.

The original estimates were simply wildly optimistic. The reality of the huge scale of this project are becoming apparent (bigger in scale than rural electrification given our policies in recent decades have allowed an explosion of one off properties that didn't exist when rural electrification happened).

KOR101

If Eir kick up their 300,000 premises FTTH programme for real in the meantime, then I don't think we've too much to complain about. But, that remains to be seen.

damienirel

murphaph wrote: »

The original estimates were simply wildly optimistic. The reality of the huge scale of this project are becoming apparent (bigger in scale than rural electrification given our policies in recent decades have allowed an explosion of one off properties that didn't exist when rural electrification happened).

Yes it does seem that the original estimates were out - but they never admit to simply getting it wrong do they? Comparing this to rural electrification is way off - we are talking about re-wiring a country that is already wired with copper.
We don't have to build power stations. We have machinery and technology today that would have made rural electrification a walk in the park. So that comparsion is total BS - it's a big project but comparing it to rural electrification back in the 50's is a bit rich. My guess is all the "snouts in the trough" is causing the delay.

ItHurtsWhenIP

I don't know folks ... my inner conspiracy theorist nut job tells me that eir are the main "we need more time" pushers ... then they continue flying along with their 100,000 and 300,000 premises ... and come the contract award time they pull out and leave the most uneconomic and hardest to reach places to the other two poor b*stards, who would then need to do deals with Open eir to get access to the fibre backhaul that they have in place.

I hope I'm wrong! :rolleyes:

bk

You also have to remember that the rural electrification scheme took 31 years to complete!

They want to complete this Broadband scheme in just 5 years. A massive undertaking.

damienirel

bk wrote: »

You also have to remember that the rural electrification scheme took 31 years to complete!

They want to complete this Broadband scheme in just 5 years. A massive undertaking.

Don't forget they haven't started yet, how long have they been talking about it though? I wouldn't mind if they started and we would then see if 5 years was long enough or not. The way it is now it will be late next year if they do start then, who knows? After that we face 5 years min - wouldn't be surprised if it goes way past that.
Rural Electrification started in the 40's afaik. I'm not sure how much machinery ESB had back then but you can be sure they didn't have anything like what we have now, standalone cherry pickers, cherry pickers on the backs of vans. Massive tractor powered hedge cutters, jcbs, diggers, mini-diggers, vans, lorries mobile phones. I can see some similarities in that it's rural but that's about it.

daraghwal

damienirel wrote: »

Don't forget they haven't started yet, how long have they been talking about it though? I wouldn't mind if they started and we would then see if 5 years was long enough or not. The way it is now it will be late next year if they do start then, who knows? After that we face 5 years min - wouldn't be surprised if it goes way past that.
Rural Electrification started in the 40's afaik. I'm not sure how much machinery ESB had back then but you can be sure they didn't have anything like what we have now, standalone cherry pickers, cherry pickers on the backs of vans. Massive tractor powered hedge cutters, jcbs, diggers, mini-diggers, vans, lorries mobile phones. I can see some similarities in that it's rural but that's about it.

Maybe the 41 years bit might end up being true too

damienirel

daraghwal wrote: »

Maybe the 41 years bit might end up being true too

Certainly doesn't bode well if all they can do is talk about it but never start it?

murphaph

I'm sure rural electrification was talked about for a while before it started.

It's naïve to underestimate how big an infrastructural project this is.

Nowhere else in the world has tried to bring universal ftth to such a dispersed low density population. That should tell us something about the nature of the NBP.

Gonzo

the bit that concerns me is that they have been writing reports and assigning a taskforce for the past 4 years with another year of nothing to happen before we even find out who gets awarded the contract. Eir and Siro have 2 huge rollout projects barely started and much of those projects would require completion before they can work further on into the NBP areas. This is gonna run well past 2025.

ED E

Gonzo wrote: »

the bit that concerns me is that they have been writing reports and assigning a taskforce for the past 4 years with another year of nothing to happen before we even find out who gets awarded the contract. Eir and Siro have 2 huge rollout projects barely started and much of those projects would require completion before they can work further on into the NBP areas. This is gonna run well past 2025.

The point is OpenEir has been shown to be actively working on the rural "commercial" routes. They're the Cavan man of companies, if they're getting the chequebook out they're pretty sure its rolling ahead.

PS: Cant attribute this to SIRO who've done jack all in low density areas.

KOR101

murphaph wrote: »

Nowhere else in the world has tried to bring universal ftth to such a dispersed low density population. That should tell us something about the nature of the NBP.

Undoubtedly true. But, the dates for things happening came from the Dept. They can be fairly criticised for raising expectations and not meeting their own deadlines. Putting this out on Budget day to bury it in other news is a bit of a joke. And, Naughten can be either praised or criticsed for being indifferent in his role.

oscarBravo

Gonzo wrote: »

the bit that concerns me is that they have been writing reports and assigning a taskforce for the past 4 years with another year of nothing to happen before we even find out who gets awarded the contract.

You can't award a contract like this without reports and project teams. Yes, it's disappointing that it's slower than we'd like, but this constant political pressure to do something - meaning deliver something - if we're not careful is going to backfire. Do we want it done now, or do we want it done right?

Eir and Siro have 2 huge rollout projects barely started and much of those projects would require completion before they can work further on into the NBP areas. This is gonna run well past 2025.

The NBP will have rollout targets with financial penalties.

Deep breath, everyone. Calm down. It's happening. It's not happening as fast as we'd like, but it's being done right by what appears to be a very competent team. We have one chance to do this right. Let's do it right, even if it takes longer than we'd like.

damienirel

oscarBravo wrote: »

You can't award a contract like this without reports and project teams. Yes, it's disappointing that it's slower than we'd like, but this constant political pressure to do something - meaning deliver something - if we're not careful is going to backfire. Do we want it done now, or do we want it done right? The NBP will have rollout targets with financial penalties.

Deep breath, everyone. Calm down. It's happening. It's not happening as fast as we'd like, but it's being done right by what appears to be a very competent team. We have one chance to do this right. Let's do it right, even if it takes longer than we'd like.

Like a carpenter once said to me "I mightn't be good but I'm slow"
Not sure announcing deadlines only to break them means you know what you're doing.

damienirel

murphaph wrote: »

I'm sure rural electrification was talked about for a while before it started.

It's naïve to underestimate how big an infrastructural project this is.

Nowhere else in the world has tried to bring universal ftth to such a dispersed low density population. That should tell us something about the nature of the NBP.

hmmm nowhere else in the world - are you sure of that? fairly sweeping statement!

KOR101

The ghost of Esat Digifone is still beating at the door of the Department of Communications, it seems.

The latest delay in the awarding of contracts under the National Broadband Plan (NBP) has been linked to the sale of the State’s second mobile phone licence, a process that scarred the surrounding landscape.

To ensure the current broadband tender avoids the same fate, officials have the three shortlisted bidders – Eir, Siro and Enet – drowning in paper work.

A whopping 2,000 pages of contract documentation has been issued so far, while the department anticipates a further 300 hours of dialogue with the consortia before the final tender is even published and bidding can commence.

“The process is intense, complex and bears considerable risk for both the State and bidders. It is important to afford the process the time it needs, to achieve the prize that has been identified as the solution,” the department said.

Perhaps we should applaud such attention to detail rather than whining about the delay, which is only likely to be a few months anyway.

A potentially bigger problem is the size of the department’s intervention footprint, which has swelled to 927,000 homes, making it the largest per capita telecoms market intervention anywhere in the world.

The department was recently forced to add 170,000 homes from areas not originally covered by the plan on account of commercial operators reneging on their business plans.

The crux of the issue lies in the difference between “premises passed” by the new technologies, the phrase industry uses, and those that can be connected to it, the threshold the Government insists upon.

Eir has also pledged to connect some 300,000 homes currently earmarked for the plan by the end of 2018. This means a third of the homes may already have superfast broadband by the time the NBP train arrives.

Both these moving metrics, which will have a major bearing on the cost of the scheme, will eventually have to be set before the bidders put their money down and it’s unclear where the line will or should be drawn.

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/fall-out-from-esat-digifone-haunts-broadband-bidding-process-1.2833187

damienirel

This is laughable. Reading between the lines it looks as if none of the bidders are interested in providing rural broadband without some serious sweeteners. This looks like it could drag on for a lot longer than the delay they have already announced. Not sure 2000 pages would slow them down that much if there was a lot of money to be made.

plodder

KOR101 wrote: »

The crux of the issue lies in the difference between “premises passed” by the new technologies, the phrase industry uses, and those that can be connected to it, the threshold the Government insists upon.

I don't understand that. Once a premises is passed, why might it not be possible to be connected?

Given the ambition and scale of the project and the 2,000 pages of contract documentation etc, I find it hard to believe that could be the sticking point.

And what relevance is the "ghost of Esat Digifone"?

damienirel

plodder wrote: »

I don't understand that. Once a premises is passed, why might it not be possible to be connected?

Given the ambition and scale of the project and the 2,000 pages of contract documentation etc, I find it hard to believe that could be the sticking point.

And what relevance is the "ghost of Esat Digifone"?

Extra cost that the bidders think they'll get cash for if they leave those premises disconnected until they are awarded the nbp money I'm guessing. Show me the money!!

oscarBravo

damienirel wrote: »

Reading between the lines...

The problem with reading between the lines is that there's nothing there but blank space, which gives people free rein to read literally anything they want.

plodder wrote: »

And what relevance is the "ghost of Esat Digifone"?

This tender not only has to be completely open and fair, it has to be provably open and fair. The Department isn't interested in ending up with another Tribunal, so they're making absolutely certain that every decision is objectively justifiable.

damienirel

oscarBravo wrote: »

The problem with reading between the lines is that there's nothing there but blank space, which gives people free rein to read literally anything they want.

Lol! true I guess but I certainly don't think being delayed and going past deadlines equates to doing it properly either. Lots of FUs happen slowly.

plodder

oscarBravo wrote: »

The problem with reading between the lines is that there's nothing there but blank space, which gives people free rein to read literally anything they want.

This tender not only has to be completely open and fair, it has to be provably open and fair. The Department isn't interested in ending up with another Tribunal, so they're making absolutely certain that every decision is objectively justifiable.

So, they cant be sued by losing bidders afterwards? That is fair enough. It's just when people mention tribunals and what went on between Michael Lowry and Denis O'Brien, I'm not sure how you can legislate for that. I'd be fairly confident the present and recent ministers can be trusted to keep that aspect above board.