NBP: National Broadband Plan Announced

tsue921i8wljb3

KOR101 wrote: »

If that's their intention then they must go through the process and sign a commitment agreement. They cannot meet the technological requirements in the process, so this is nothing like what Eir did.

They have obviously chosen the 30Mb at install for a reason (it being the minimum speed mandated by the NBP) so they may argue that they would meet the technological requirements.

Their plan may be just to delay the process as much as possible allowing them to build out, capturing customers and hope inertia keeps them subscribing.

In any case it seems that Imagine and their investors are unafraid of a process that many, including myself, thought would destroy them.

KOR101

Siena Gigantic Backyard wrote: »

They have obviously chosen the 30Mb at install for a reason (it being the minimum speed mandated by the NBP) so they may argue that they would meet the technological requirements.

Took a while to find it. One of the criteria is even "Does the solution rely on optical (or equivalent) technology. Can't find it now, but there were others about future proofing, and I thought the spectrum simply isn't large enough even with lots more masts.

Siena Gigantic Backyard wrote: »

In any case it seems that Imagine and their investors are unafraid of a process that many, including myself, thought would destroy them.

The article reads like his pitch to investors. It says that they couldn't confirm that anyone had actually agreed to the funding yet. When I read that passage I did think that this was a potential legal/EU case, but I don't think they can come close to winning this.

tsue921i8wljb3

KOR101 wrote: »

Took a while to find it. One of the criteria is even "Does the solution rely on optical (or equivalent) technology. Can't find it now, but there were others about future proofing, and I thought the spectrum simply isn't large enough even with lots more masts.



The article reads like his pitch to investors. It says that they couldn't confirm that anyone had actually agreed to the funding yet. When I read that passage I did think that this was a potential legal/EU case, but I don't think they can come close to winning this.

Good memory! I don't think they would win either. Hopefully it is as you say merely a sales pitch. It will be interesting to see if investors who one would assume are smart and clued in take the gamble with Imagine.

rodge123

Siena Gigantic Backyard wrote: »

Good memory! I don't think they would win either. Hopefully it is as you say merely a sales pitch. It will be interesting to see if investors who one would assume are smart and clued in take the gamble with Imagine.

The article makes my blood boil, I love the part
"Imagine advertises the LTE service as enabling download speeds of about 70MB for customers. However, customers often secure speeds above that. Mr Bolger said that as the network expanded, high"

It reads like something mr Bolger wrote himself and the independent just put it In word for word!

There are also plenty of people that don't get close to the 30mb speeds at peak hours and that's with a daily data cap!

I'm very concerned that they will convince whatever gombeen minister for communications to exclude them if we have an early election.

Gonzo

Mr Bolger deserves a massive gold star for determination. Imagine obviously have plans to expand and dominate the rural landscape and see their product as a commercial 'fibre' product similar to Eir, Siro and Virgin Media. Suggestions here that Imagine will try to get their footprint areas taken out of the NBP could be real, at this stage Bolger is capable of anything to keep Imagine growing and expanding.

I really hope this isn't true, because if it does happen, that's rural Ireland back to square one.

ED E

CISCO wrote:

Global IP traffic will increase nearly threefold over the next 5 years. Overall, IP traffic will grow at a Compound Annual Growth Rate (CAGR) of 24 percent from 2016 to 2021. Monthly IP traffic will reach 35 GB per capita by 2021, up from 13 GB per capita in 2016.

Ciscos previous predictions have been +/- 10% correct.

Imagine will have no new hardware of bandwidth in the next 5yrs in all foreseeable circumstances. There are only a certain number of new high sites they can occupy.

24% more traffic each year, 0% extra capacity. You can "Imagine" how the service will feel in 2019.

Johnboy1951

As I read it, there is a huge dependency on how this is interpreted ...

Minimum download speed of 30Mbps to all users when they demand it.

From a non-technical non-service provider's point of view that 'should' mean All users should be able to get 30Mbps at the same time.

Presumably service providers will not necessarily have this 'full' capacity.

What would that quote mean to the department? .... they wrote it

Would/could they demand that the 'full' capacity should be available at all times?

AidenL

Siena Gigantic Backyard wrote: »

They have obviously chosen the 30Mb at install for a reason (it being the minimum speed mandated by the NBP) so they may argue that they would meet the technological requirements.

Their plan may be just to delay the process as much as possible allowing them to build out, capturing customers and hope inertia keeps them subscribing.

In any case it seems that Imagine and their investors are unafraid of a process that many, including myself, thought would destroy them.

I guess, in all fairness, there are a lot of people in homes like me who probably won’t see anything from the NBP until 2020 at the very earliest.

I’m looking at wireless right now out of desperation. I was in the blue zone, and fell back in to the Amber NBP, I think we all accept there will be nothing from it till around 2020 at the speed things are moving.

Imagine would be better than nothing?

KOR101

And, let's not forget that the 30mbit target is for 2020. It's looking like a good proportion of houses under the NBP won't be completed until after 2020 and these would come under any new EU target for 2025, which may well be close to 100mbit.

tsue921i8wljb3

AidenL wrote: »

I guess, in all fairness, there are a lot of people in homes like me who probably won’t see anything from the NBP until 2020 at the very earliest.

I’m looking at wireless right now out of desperation. I was in the blue zone, and fell back in to the Amber NBP, I think we all accept there will be nothing from it till around 2020 at the speed things are moving.

Imagine would be better than nothing?

Oh yes it is certainly better than nothing. It just doesn't compare to the full fibre solution proposed by the bidders in the NBP.

tsue921i8wljb3

KOR101 wrote: »

And, let's not forget that the 30mbit target is for 2020. It's looking like a good proportion of houses under the NBP won't be completed until after 2020 and these would come under any new EU target for 2025, which may well be close to 100mbit.

Lucky then to quote the article

LTE speeds of as fast as one gigabit have already been demonstrated by US telecoms operator Sprint.

AidenL

Siena Gigantic Backyard wrote: »

Oh yes it is certainly better than nothing. It just doesn't compare to the full fibre solution proposed by the bidders in the NBP.

I suppose the advantage is, it’s here right now as an offering, the NBP on the ground is literally years away.

Gonzo

If Imagne really are going to try and take their areas out of the NBP, lets hope the government see's sense and not fall for Imagine's plans.

If this does become a reality, there could be large portions of rural Ireland with nothing other than Imagine available.

What happens if a customer can't get a line of sight/ proper connection?
What happens if a mast is then full and Imagine won't supply a customer in one of their areas?
What happens if Imagine pile everyone onto the masts with massive contention with no more bandwidth available?
How long will it take Imagine to retire each wireless product before introducing a new wireless product when product becomes obsolete?

Ultimanemo

Gonzo wrote: »

What happens if a mast is then full and Imagine won't supply a customer in one of their areas?

For me, that is not if, that is now

opinionated3

Gonzo wrote: »

If Imagne really are going to try and take their areas out of the NBP, lets hope the government see's sense and not fall for Imagine's plans.

If this does become a reality, there could be large portions of rural Ireland with nothing other than Imagine available.

What happens if a customer can't get a line of sight/ proper connection?
What happens if a mast is then full and Imagine won't supply a customer in one of their areas?
What happens if Imagine pile everyone onto the masts with massive contention with no more bandwidth available?
How long will it take Imagine to retire each wireless product before introducing a new wireless product when product becomes obsolete?

I'm here right now struggling with 2.3mb with imagine LTE. I'm connected to the Ben dash mast in co Clare. Clearly there is a major issue with contention because every evening my speed drops to around the 3mb mark. Can't even watch Netflix. Mr bolger might talk a good game but his product in reality is not reliable and is bloody expensive too. I sincerely hope a more reliable supplier with better technology wins the nbp contract. I'm in the area that won't be dealt with till at least 2020 so I'm stuck with imagine till then

rodge123

ED E wrote: »

Ciscos previous predictions have been +/- 10% correct.

Imagine will have no new hardware of bandwidth in the next 5yrs in all foreseeable circumstances. There are only a certain number of new high sites they can occupy.

24% more traffic each year, 0% extra capacity. You can "Imagine" how the service will feel in 2019.

Yes but does whatever Minister that happens to be in place early next know or really care about this? Or understand for that matter!

I just have no confidence in any of our elected representatives to implement this correctly for everyone for the future....

Take this scenario:
New minsiter in charge in new year.
NBP has been dragging on for years and nothing started yet (Chances are they were ones criticising the slow process as they normally do when in opposition whether right or wrong).
Imagine lodge a complaint that NBP is encroaching on their areas and that they will sue if government doesn't remove them.
Mr New Minister decides feck this....I can cut them out and get tender out the door so this thing can get going OR wait years of legal wrangling and I'll be gone with nothing achieved to my name/legacy!

You sound like you have all the facts and data to back up why their solution wont work.

I dont suppose you could do us all a favour ED and put a detailed email together as to why Imagines solution will not work long term, and forward this email to all government departments and newspapers?

Gonzo

opinionated3 wrote: »

I'm here right now struggling with 2.3mb with imagine LTE. I'm connected to the Ben dash mast in co Clare. Clearly there is a major issue with contention because every evening my speed drops to around the 3mb mark. Can't even watch Netflix. Mr bolger might talk a good game but his product in reality is not reliable and is bloody expensive too. I sincerely hope a more reliable supplier with better technology wins the nbp contract. I'm in the area that won't be dealt with till at least 2020 so I'm stuck with imagine till then

With Imagine it seems a bit of a lottery with masts, some of them are really badly contended and others are fine.

If Imagine do get away with taking all of their existing coverage areas out of the NBP then those masts are all going to be full at some stage and heavily contended.

This would be a real dirty move by Imagine, they have been bad mouthing FTTH and the NBP ever since they lost their bid and seem to be doing whatever they can to keep their large slice of rural broadband.

rodge123

Ultimanemo wrote: »

For me, that is not if, that is now

Me too..averaging 7Mb down / 2Up most evenings.

Gonzo's point is very valid.

If excluded from NBP:
- All their customers most likely will only have them as an option, they could potentially fleece us then....zero competition
- Would they have to allow other operators access to their network like eir do?

I've a mini forrest a few fields down to the left of my house, not in line of site of mast but if they decided to forrest field directly behind my house in line of mast then what happens!

tsue921i8wljb3

It's unlikely that Imagine would actually be successful in having premises removed from the NBP. The question might be whether they see litigation as beneficial to their business model. By suing they may hold up the process giving them a chance to expand and add more customers but obviously litigation is not cheap especially if you are destined to lose.

BandMember

Imagine can try to take areas out of the NBP, but they haven't a hope in hell and they know it. It's just posturing to see if they can (a) wrangle some concessions out of the Department and (b) reassure shareholders. It may hold things up for a bit but, in the long term, it's nothing to worry about as the Department's submission papers (which were helpfully posted on this thread) shows that Imagine cannot meet the requirements of the NBP - no matter how much BS they spout.....

On a sidenote, very disappointed with the likes of Weckler in the Independent (although I don't think he wrote today's article). For a fella who likes to portray himself as a tecchie, he does nothing but copy and paste Imagine's press releases with no objectivity or questioning, yet he's fairly quick to comment on the NBP process. I'll say no more....

wexfordman2

BandMember wrote: »

Imagine can try to take areas out of the NBP, but they haven't a hope in hell and they know it. It's just posturing to see if they can (a) wrangle some concessions out of the Department and (b) reassure shareholders. It may hold things up for a bit but, in the long term, it's nothing to worry about as the Department's submission papers (which were helpfully posted on this thread) shows that Imagine cannot meet the requirements of the NBP - no matter how much BS they spout.....

On a sidenote, very disappointed with the likes of Weckler in the Independent (although I don't think he wrote today's article). For a fella who likes to portray himself as a tecchie, he does nothing but copy and paste Imagine's press releases with no objectivity or questioning, yet he's fairly quick to comment on the NBP process. I'll say no more....

You would wonder if many of the "articles" the independent carry are actual articles or "advertising" ?

Persiancowboy

One of the most basic requirements of the Department's spec is for future proofing. This is also linked to the State Aid requirement of any publicly-funded intervention constituting a "step-change" in terms of the service being provided.

Can't see how this latest product meets these basic criteria (isn't the 30mbps floor also an "always on" stipulation also?)

Imagine and its CEO are very very good at self-promotion but little else. I wouldn't buy a litre of milk of this outfit.

tsue921i8wljb3

Build unlikely to start until mid 2018:

https://www.independent.ie/business/technology/national-broadband-plan-facing-further-possible-delays-as-shovels-in-the-ground-unlikely-to-happen-until-mid2018-36361948.html

dashoonage

Siena Gigantic Backyard wrote: »

Build unlikely to start until mid 2018:

https://www.independent.ie/business/technology/national-broadband-plan-facing-further-possible-delays-as-shovels-in-the-ground-unlikely-to-happen-until-mid2018-36361948.html

old news. There is a delay in the tender for the supply of the shovels.

Johnboy1951

Siena Gigantic Backyard wrote: »

Build unlikely to start until mid 2018:

https://www.independent.ie/business/technology/national-broadband-plan-facing-further-possible-delays-as-shovels-in-the-ground-unlikely-to-happen-until-mid2018-36361948.html

I doubt it will start (shovels in the ground) before Jan 2019.

That has been seen by many as the expected commencement since the eir 300k agreement.

Gonzo

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

I doubt it will start (shovels in the ground) before Jan 2019.

That has been seen by many as the expected commencement since the eir 300k agreement.

I reckon January 2019 would be the absolute earliest date to start, there are bound to be more delays during 2018 with possibly Imagine trying their best to derail the project and a possible general election at some point over next 12 months.

KOR101

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

I doubt it will start (shovels in the ground) before Jan 2019.

That has been seen by many as the expected commencement since the eir 300k agreement.

EIR can complete it in 3 years at a rate of 44k a quarter, so natural to wait until 2019 but it's not looking like Jan 2019.

Ultimanemo

I think people should behave as if NBP will never happen and look for other solutions, That is what I am doing anyway.

ED E

Ultimanemo wrote: »

I think people should behave as if NBP will never happen and look for other solutions, That is what I am doing anyway.

For any telco related service (and many others) thats the only way to operate. 2nd guessing leads you down an impossible prediction rabbit hole.

AidenL

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

I doubt it will start (shovels in the ground) before Jan 2019.

That has been seen by many as the expected commencement since the eir 300k agreement.

I’ll bet June 2019.

Us Amber folk are in for a longgggggggg wait.......:o

BarryM

Did any of ye look at what was allocated in the '18 budget for NBP?

tsue921i8wljb3

The Department has denied that there has been any delay.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/department-denies-new-delay-to-rural-broadband-scheme-1.3310071

KOR101

Éamon Ó Cuív in the Dail, although they must be in pole position to get the rest with subsidies......

We should be fair to Eir and everybody involved. Eir got the notion of doing a rural roll-out and there was great difficulty in the Department dealing with this. People were saying it will be done or it will not be, etc. Eventually, an agreement was signed that Eir would do a certain area and no more or less. We must be careful. Is it a fact that if Eir started to extend beyond those agreed borders, the rural broadband plan would have to be remapped and we would start once again on this roundabout that has been going on for years? What we need is quite simple; we need the Government to step in fast with a national rural broadband programme and put fibre in every house and business in the country.

https://www.kildarestreet.com/committees/?id=2017-11-15a.1517&s=national+broadband+plan#g1580

Johnboy1951

Siena Gigantic Backyard wrote: »

The Department has denied that there has been any delay.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/department-denies-new-delay-to-rural-broadband-scheme-1.3310071

Nothing at all new in that piece.
Ages ago we knew that the tendering process would not complete before mid year 2018.
Just repeating what was already known.

C14N

Gonzo wrote: »

If Imagne really are going to try and take their areas out of the NBP, lets hope the government see's sense and not fall for Imagine's plans.

If this does become a reality, there could be large portions of rural Ireland with nothing other than Imagine available.

What happens if a customer can't get a line of sight/ proper connection?
What happens if a mast is then full and Imagine won't supply a customer in one of their areas?
What happens if Imagine pile everyone onto the masts with massive contention with no more bandwidth available?
How long will it take Imagine to retire each wireless product before introducing a new wireless product when product becomes obsolete?

Even if none of that happens and you can get Imagine perfectly fine, it still has the enormous problem of being a monopoly and having a completely captive audience. If fiber is down and I'm not happy with my provider, I can switch to another. If Imagine is the only one in the area, they have no incentive at all to actually offer decent customer service.

KOR101

Not sure whether the specific concern relates to 5G state aid or fibre.....

“Investment in infrastructure for connectivity is key to developing European 5G, and that is what I am committed to in the roll-out of Ireland’s National Broadband Plan. We can look at fibre as the new electricity system of tomorrow, and I am pleased to report that there was unanimous agreement amongst ministers on the importance of fibre.

“I have asked the European Commission today to provide clarity going forward in respect of State aid rules on infrastructure investment. The ambiguity in respect of the rules in this area causes delay in State investment, and it also makes private investment decisions more difficult. We need a combination of public and private investment to roll out state-of-the-art 5G in Ireland and the EU in the future.”

https://www.siliconrepublic.com/comms/5g-eu-ireland-state-aid-naughten

BarryM

See my post on FTTH thread re NBP

KOR101

In case you missed it, the NBP is already underway .........

Ireland's National Broadband Plan will deliver fibre to the home (FTTH) services to 200,000 homes and businesses by the end of 2018, according to the programme's director, Fergal Mulligan.

Mulligan said that the project had so far provided FTTH services to 100,000 homes and businesses across Ireland, with that figure set to double by the end of 2018.

https://www.totaltele.com/498805/Ireland-to-deliver-FTTH-to-200000-premises-by-2018

rodge123

KOR101 wrote: »

In case you missed it, the NBP is already underway .........

Ireland's National Broadband Plan will deliver fibre to the home (FTTH) services to 200,000 homes and businesses by the end of 2018, according to the programme's director, Fergal Mulligan.

Mulligan said that the project had so far provided FTTH services to 100,000 homes and businesses across Ireland, with that figure set to double by the end of 2018.

https://www.totaltele.com/498805/Ireland-to-deliver-FTTH-to-200000-premises-by-2018

My God....either Fergal Mulligan has caught the "Commerical development is part of NBP" virus Mr Naughten has or that site has mis-quoted him.
Either way, tut tut tut!

tsue921i8wljb3

KOR101 wrote: »

In case you missed it, the NBP is already underway .........

Ireland's National Broadband Plan will deliver fibre to the home (FTTH) services to 200,000 homes and businesses by the end of 2018, according to the programme's director, Fergal Mulligan.

Mulligan said that the project had so far provided FTTH services to 100,000 homes and businesses across Ireland, with that figure set to double by the end of 2018.

https://www.totaltele.com/498805/Ireland-to-deliver-FTTH-to-200000-premises-by-2018

Seems to have come from this event (click view details).

If the quote by Fergal Mulligan is accurate is this a tacit admission that eir's 300K target will be missed? 200K by end 2018?

BarryM

Fergal Mulligan, who he? Is he a new appointment in the Dept? I didn't think the Dept was going to a DO anything, just manage. If he is the money manager then grand, how much, when, where? Not a whole lot in the '18 budget, that I saw.

tsue921i8wljb3

BarryM wrote: »

Fergal Mulligan, who he? Is he a new appointment in the Dept? I didn't think the Dept was going to a DO anything, just manage. If he is the money manager then grand, how much, when, where? Not a whole lot in the '18 budget, that I saw.

These are the guys who make all the decisions. You just rarely hear of them. Ministers are just a figurehead. The civil servants run the country.

xxyyzz

.

Ultimanemo

KOR101 wrote: »

In case you missed it, the NBP is already underway .........

Ireland's National Broadband Plan will deliver fibre to the home (FTTH) services to 200,000 homes and businesses by the end of 2018, according to the programme's director, Fergal Mulligan.

Mulligan said that the project had so far provided FTTH services to 100,000 homes and businesses across Ireland, with that figure set to double by the end of 2018.

https://www.totaltele.com/498805/Ireland-to-deliver-FTTH-to-200000-premises-by-2018

That is a blatant Lie, NBP has absolutely nothing to do with Rural FTTH which is now underway by Siro and eir.
It is like claiming the HSE is doing great because more Vhi patients are treated in private hospitals

ED E

Load of crap, he's worse than Naughten for hot air with that.

Johnboy1951

Ultimanemo wrote: »

That is a blatant Lie, NBP has absolutely nothing to do with Rural FTTH which is now underway by Siro and eir.
It is like claiming the HSE is doing great because more Vhi patients are treated in private hospitals

A lot of us do not consider the Siro roll-out to be Rural FTTH ...... they are only servicing built up areas.

Ultimanemo

Which party is Mr. Naughten, so we don't vote for them again

Ultimanemo

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

A lot of us do not consider the Siro roll-out to be Rural FTTH ...... they are only servicing built up areas.

True

9726_9726

KOR101 wrote: »

In case you missed it, the NBP is already underway .........

Ireland's National Broadband Plan will deliver fibre to the home (FTTH) services to 200,000 homes and businesses by the end of 2018, according to the programme's director, Fergal Mulligan.

Mulligan said that the project had so far provided FTTH services to 100,000 homes and businesses across Ireland, with that figure set to double by the end of 2018.

https://www.totaltele.com/498805/Ireland-to-deliver-FTTH-to-200000-premises-by-2018

What the what the what the what the???

Great, after all the delays, the NBP has *provided services* to 100,000 homes and businesses! Without putting a shovel in the ground!

Surely this is a misquote. The NBP has connected nobody. Zero. Eir have passed 100,000 commercially.

Mulligan has been running the NBP for years. He knows this.

Ultimanemo

rodge123 wrote: »

My God....either Fergal Mulligan has caught the "Commerical development is part of NBP" virus Mr Naughten has or that site has mis-quoted him.
Either way, tut tut tut!

I think what they are trying to do is: We achieved at least 30% of NBP objectives, so we can take a break for a few years now.