NBP: National Broadband Plan Announced

Schorpio

Ultimanemo wrote: »

I think what they are trying to do is: We achieved at least 30% of NBP objectives, so we can take a break for a few years now.

Right, as somebody who is living in an amber area - who do i complain to about this?

As others have said, Mulligan should knows better than this. If it is a misquote, then fine - but it should be acknowledged as such.

This isn't on. The NBP cannot claim wins it hasn't earned. It needs to get on with the job of actually creating success stories. People need to be held to account. This false inflation of figures is no better than what the Gardai were doing.

niallb

Add a comment to the article itself.
People reading it are unlikely to be checking boards for clarification!

Johnboy1951

It might be stretching things a little from the user perspective, but it is not surprising to read this claim.

I suspect it is being claimed on the basis that

1. eir would not have had any interest in doing their 300k roll-out without the NBP 'threat' to their monopoly, so the NBP is directly responsible.

It is difficult to deny that.

2. Siro would likely never exist but for the NBP ...... so their roll out is also due to the NBP.

Again difficult to argue the contrary.

It is but a small step to claim the NBP is responsible for those roll-outs and connections.

IMO, this is not worth arguing about.
All that matters is that connections become available to those who want them, as soon as possible, by whatever provider is working in the area - NBP subsidised or a commercial roll out triggered by the threat of the NBP tender awards.

Ultimanemo

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

It might be stretching things a little from the user perspective, but it is not surprising to read this claim.

I suspect it is being claimed on the basis that

1. eir would not have had any interest in doing their 300k roll-out without the NBP 'threat' to their monopoly, so the NBP is directly responsible.

It is difficult to deny that.

2. Siro would likely never exist but for the NBP ...... so their roll out is also due to the NBP.

Again difficult to argue the contrary.

It is but a small step to claim the NBP is responsible for those roll-outs and connections.

IMO, this is not worth arguing about.
All that matters is that connections become available to those who want them, as soon as possible, by whatever provider is working in the area - NBP subsidised or a commercial roll out triggered by the threat of the NBP tender awards.

May be you are right but the article says
"Ireland's National Broadband Plan will deliver fibre to the home (FTTH) services to 200,000 homes and businesses by the end of 2018"
That is a naked lie

Schorpio

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

It is but a small step to claim the NBP is responsible for those roll-outs and connections.

IMO, this is not worth arguing about.
All that matters is that connections become available to those who want them, as soon as possible, by whatever provider is working in the area - NBP subsidised or a commercial roll out triggered by the threat of the NBP tender awards.

I dunno - I take your point, but when these schemes come around for review, there will be less pressure on to get on with things if the connected numbers already 'look' good. If those numbers have been artificially inflated, then it ultimately means that people will be waiting even longer to get connected via genuine NBP-driven mechanisms.

People connected because of the 'threat' of the NBP does not equal people connected by the NBP. If the NBP being just around the corner was all it took to get companies like Eir to invest and get more infrastructure out there, then it would seem to me like they should have been doing it in the first place.

BarryM

Maybe I am not seeing the whole piece, there is some message about the ads.... but I suspect it a series of misquotes, starting with Mulligan's title. 
Probably also Mulligan fudged the NBP with eir's 300k, and/or the writer is unfamiliar with the background. 
Either way, there is, afaics, no real money in the '18 budget, so amber stays amber, maybe even goes to red?

Johnboy1951

Schorpio wrote: »

I dunno - I take your point, but when these schemes come around for review, there will be less pressure on to get on with things if the connected numbers already 'look' good. If those numbers have been artificially inflated, then it ultimately means that people will be waiting even longer to get connected via genuine NBP-driven mechanisms.

People connected because of the 'threat' of the NBP does not equal people connected by the NBP. If the NBP being just around the corner was all it took to get companies like Eir to invest and get more infrastructure out there, then it would seem to me like they should have been doing it in the first place.

Of course they 'should' (from a consumer POV) ...... but they had no need to do so (commercially) as they (eir) had an effective monopoly with their copper, which came under threat with the NBP, thus triggering investment to help maintain their dominant position.

If Siro was born without the NBP it would probably have had the same effect ...... but of course that did not exist without the NBP either.

Eventually (years down the road) some commercial roll out would have been undertaken ..... only in the commercially very profitable areas.

I would have no problem with a statement like .....
'the NBP is responsible for X number of premises being connected to FTTH at this time'.
I believe it to be true.

"Ireland's National Broadband Plan will deliver fibre to the home (FTTH) services to 200,000 homes and businesses by the end of 2018"

The above quote could be (political speak) interpreted the same.
It is deliberately designed to mis-inform, IMO, but is that not what we expect? :rolleyes:

Ultimanemo

With or without NBP eir had to act and do something to keep it's share of the market, people who has poor Internet speed with eir are leaving regardless of the NBP, threat of 4G or "in the future even 5G" threat of companies like Imagine and other wireless broadband providers put eir in front of two choices; come up with faster speeds or left behind.
I disconnected my copper wire before even I knew there is something called NBP

BarryM

Today's news that Xavier Niel is making a move on eir could and should make a difference. Neil, who started life, using a Sinclair ZX81 and the Minitel, to write the first (soft) porno app for it. He is a tech entrepreneur of a different type, who picked up a fledgling ISP called Free, funded by ads, and has turned it into a major player in France.
However, he was aided by the French regulation which requires the former monopoly, France Telecom, to generate a network which is 'open' in the true sense, they are obliged to create, maintain and update the network and offer access to everyone who needs service. Free is one of those. 
Now, if eir was obliged to do that, what would Irelands's BB service be like? Not what is in now where eir is dragged kicking and screaming into supplying any kind of service to other operators and manages to upstage the national plan to upgrade access by 'offering' to upgrade, maybe, 300k of those whom they consider worth upgrading. 
Hurry up M.Neil!!

Marlow

OpenEIR is such free to everyone to use.

The problem is that their cost is way above what access in other countries cost, their politics and onboarding procedure are a nighmare .. (1 year from initial negotiations to your first connection is not uncommon) and their tools for interacting and ordering with them are near to useless (UG).

The issue is not getting another manager. The issue is to get Comreg to do what they're supposed to do: regulate and enforce regulation.

Right now, there is for example a regulation price for dark fiber from OpenEIR. But OpenEIR has not been required to make that product available across the board.

/M

Johnboy1951

Marlow wrote: »

OpenEIR is such free to everyone to use.

The problem is that their cost is way above what access in other countries cost, their politics and onboarding procedure are a nighmare .. (1 year from initial negotiations to your first connection is not uncommon) and their tools for interacting and ordering with them are near to useless (UG).

The issue is not getting another manager. The issue is to get Comreg to do what they're supposed to do: regulate and enforce regulation.

Right now, there is for example a regulation price for dark fiber from OpenEIR. But OpenEIR has not been required to make that product available across the board.

/M

The real problem - and it is likely to become more of a problem as time progresses - is that the NBP infrastructure will be in private hands instead of being owned by the people of Ireland.

Marlow

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

The real problem - and it is likely to become more of a problem as time progresses - is that the NBP infrastructure will be in private hands instead of being owned by the people of Ireland.

Of course. But look at how the other way works: The government Metropolitan Networks (MAN) are being owned by the people of Ireland. e-Net manages them for the Government.

Yet, we're still paying prices, that are 10-fold of and more, what the going rate is in Dublin or continental Europe is, to get access to this infrastructure.

By irish terms, I don't think it'll make any difference, unless Comreg starts doing their job.

/M

Johnboy1951

Marlow wrote: »

Of course. But look at how the other way works: The government Metropolitan Networks (MAN) are being owned by the people of Ireland. e-Net manages them for the Government.

Yet, we're still paying prices, that are 10-fold of and more, what the going rate is in Dublin or continental Europe is, to get access to this infrastructure.

By irish terms, I don't think it'll make any difference, unless Comreg starts doing their job.

/M

That does remain a possibility ...... improbable as it seems.

IF the NBP infrastructure was in public ownership, along with the MANs then it is highly likely there would be a specific department set up to manage the whole thing, rather than no one really being responsible presently.

KOR101

Anyone come across the specifics on this?

Minister for Housing Eoghan Murphy will announce proposals on Thursday to exempt a number of developments from planning permissions to help tackle the housing crisis.

The changes to be introduced as part of the Planning Act will also exempt developments by Irish Water on new water infrastructure and maintenance of existing systems. Certain works to be undertaken as part of the national broadband plan, as well as works on extending mobile phone coverage, will not need planning permission either.

“They will assist in the accelerated roll-out of broadband and mobile services, in urban and particularly in rural areas, as envisaged by the Action Plan for Rural Development; .......

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/vacant-shops-to-be-turned-into-homes-without-planning-permission-1.3326573

Johnboy1951

KOR101 wrote: »

Anyone come across the specifics on this?

Minister for Housing Eoghan Murphy will announce proposals on Thursday to exempt a number of developments from planning permissions to help tackle the housing crisis.

The changes to be introduced as part of the Planning Act will also exempt developments by Irish Water on new water infrastructure and maintenance of existing systems. Certain works to be undertaken as part of the national broadband plan, as well as works on extending mobile phone coverage, will not need planning permission either.

“They will assist in the accelerated roll-out of broadband and mobile services, in urban and particularly in rural areas, as envisaged by the Action Plan for Rural Development; .......

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/vacant-shops-to-be-turned-into-homes-without-planning-permission-1.3326573

It sounds like it has the potential to go radically wrong

turbbo

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

It sounds like it has the potential to go radically wrong

So rather than fix the planning process - just get rid of it. Yup a very Irish solution. No chance of that going wrong at all.

Marlow

On the mobile and broadband forum this year, there was talk by the minister (for comms) and others about getting excemption for planning to put communications in (broadband, telephone etc) in a lot of areas, equal to as with water in some cases.

Also to lower the council fee's for said and fees for council owned infrastructure (mast space).

Having said that ... there was talk !! .. that doesn't mean any action.

/M

fergus1001

UK government have updated their USO(universal service obligation) to 10mbps minimum connection speed meaning someone in the bog arse of Cornwall has a legal right to this speed, this is how our broadband problem should be solved, but alas our politicians are spineless

Persiancowboy

fergus1001 wrote: »

UK government have updated their USO(universal service obligation) to 10mbps minimum connection speed meaning someone in the bog arse of Cornwall has a legal right to this speed, this is how our broadband problem should be solved, but alas our politicians are spineless

Totally disagree. How is this going to be measured? who is going to measure it? If you have a wireless connection you are subject to contention....is it 10mbps at all times or at specific periods during the day? How is it being funded?

Is Ofcom now going to oblige all UK telcos to pay into a USO fund....and if so what about the Googles and Facebooks of this world...should they also contribute?

Whatever about the understandable frustrations at the snail's pace of NBP roll-out, we are in a much better long-term situation here with a fibre solution to our BB needs than the UK who are almost totally reliant on BT squeezing every last inch out of its copper network.

That USO announcement will amount to nothing and is doomed to failure.

fergus1001

Persiancowboy wrote:

Totally disagree. How is this going to be measured? who is going to measure it? If you have a wireless connection you are subject to contention....is it 10mbps at all times or at specific periods during the day? How is it being funded?

The USO applies to BT landline not mobile operators

Ultimanemo

This thread started on 24-11-2014, 13:38
That tells it all

Marlow

The USO is for the incumbent (BT) And means that that BT has an obligation to supply no less than 10 Mbit/s line speed, if ordered. They can sell you smaller packages, but can't tell you that you can't have 10 Mbit/s, if you pay the price.

In Ireland the USO never included internet or broadband. Dialup-Dempsey: Dialup is fast enough for anyone !!

Also, even if broadband was included in the USO here, OpenEir has been given no minimum time for delivery. Only that they have to deliver a phoneline. Some people wait 5+ years for said phoneline.

Ergo .. don't even think about that.

/M

turbbo

Marlow wrote: »

The USO is for the incumbent (BT) And means that that BT has an obligation to supply no less than 10 Mbit/s line speed, if ordered. They can sell you smaller packages, but can't tell you that you can't have 10 Mbit/s, if you pay the price.

In Ireland the USO never included internet or broadband. Dial-Dempsey: Dialup is fast enough for anyone !!

Also, even if broadband was included in the USO here, OpenEir has been given no minimum time for delivery. Only that they have to deliver a phoneline. Some people wait 5+ years for said phoneline.

Ergo .. don't even think about that.

/M

Bunch of clowns running this country into the ground.

turbbo

"a game of corporate pass the parcel", where players in the game won and the "parcel lost"

https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/eir-managers-get-100m-as-buyer-rules-out-ipo-36425391.html

KOR101

But Mr Naughten has now pledged most of the country will be online by the end of 2018: “I can say by the end of next year, 78% of premises in the country will have access to high-speed broadband.

“The likelihood is it is going to be higher than that but I am not going to commit myself until I see the colour of their money. It will probably be higher with wireless rollout.”

A number of areas remaining will first get access to wireless networks, ahead of broadband being provided. However, the crucial intervention is in areas which commercial operators have not taken full ownership of and the State must intervene, under the plan, to provide broadband.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/pledge-for-over-75-of-ireland-to-have-high-speed-broadband-access-by-end-of-2018-465092.html

tsue921i8wljb3

KOR101 wrote: »

But Mr Naughten has now pledged most of the country will be online by the end of 2018: “I can say by the end of next year, 78% of premises in the country will have access to high-speed broadband.

“The likelihood is it is going to be higher than that but I am not going to commit myself until I see the colour of their money. It will probably be higher with wireless rollout.”

A number of areas remaining will first get access to wireless networks, ahead of broadband being provided. However, the crucial intervention is in areas which commercial operators have not taken full ownership of and the State must intervene, under the plan, to provide broadband.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/pledge-for-over-75-of-ireland-to-have-high-speed-broadband-access-by-end-of-2018-465092.html

That is somewhat confusing. The Naughten quote "It will probably be higher with
wireless rollout." implies that wireless connections, of unspecified type, will be counted as "high-speed broadband". Although then the article says that wireless will be provided ahead of "broadband".

fergus1001

KOR101 wrote:

“The likelihood is it is going to be higher than that but I am not going to commit myself until I see the colour of their money. It will probably be higher with wireless rollout.â€

Sorry but are we back yo square one

Wireless is not broadband !!!!

Ultimanemo

fergus1001 wrote: »

Sorry but are we back yo square one

Wireless is not broadband !!!!

Probably while eir is finishing the 300K, he will go behind Imagine with bells and drums to supply more premises on commercial grounds, and that gives him something to talk about and take more free credit.

KOR101

Siena Gigantic Backyard wrote: »

That is somewhat confusing. The Naughten quote "It will probably be higher with
wireless rollout." implies that wireless connections, of unspecified type, will be counted as "high-speed broadband". Although then the article says that wireless will be provided ahead of "broadband".

I think that's just either a journalist garbling what they heard or the Minister using garbled conversation.

I think the plan is to greatly relax the planning restrictions on wireless infrastructure and let the likes of Imagine and the 4G providers make hay. This supposedly in advance of the final fibre solution. At any rate, what the two bidders are proposing should be clearer in just be a few months assuming no further obstacles appear.

tsue921i8wljb3

KOR101 wrote: »

I think that's just either a journalist garbling what they heard or the Minister using garbled conversation.

I think the plan is to greatly relax the planning restrictions on wireless infrastructure and let the likes of Imagine and the 4G providers make hay. This supposedly in advance of the final fibre solution. At any rate, what the two bidders are proposing should be clearer in just be a few months assuming no further obstacles appear.

That makes sense although you could see why Imagine in particular would not be best pleased. On one hand you have Minister Naughten using their rollout to pad his premises figures,claiming them as "high speed" while on the other hand he is heading a project that could lead to their downfall as a viable business.

rodge123

KOR101 wrote: »

But Mr Naughten has now pledged most of the country will be online by the end of 2018: “I can say by the end of next year, 78% of premises in the country will have access to high-speed broadband.

“The likelihood is it is going to be higher than that but I am not going to commit myself until I see the colour of their money. It will probably be higher with wireless rollout.”

A number of areas remaining will first get access to wireless networks, ahead of broadband being provided. However, the crucial intervention is in areas which commercial operators have not taken full ownership of and the State must intervene, under the plan, to provide broadband.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/pledge-for-over-75-of-ireland-to-have-high-speed-broadband-access-by-end-of-2018-465092.html

Reads to me that they are gonna take imagines bs hook and line and remove their customers from nbp if they can show they have funding in place to upgrade their lte network to faster speeds as recently stated by bulger.

Marlow

Siena Gigantic Backyard wrote: »

That is somewhat confusing. The Naughten quote "It will probably be higher with
wireless rollout." implies that wireless connections, of unspecified type, will be counted as "high-speed broadband". Although then the article says that wireless will be provided ahead of "broadband".

Wireless to Naughten is 4G/LTE ... meaning Vodafone, Eir Mobile, Three and those providers that bought a national 3.6 GHz license (like Imagine), which enforces use of LTE equipment and has now kicked all the regional providers out of the 3.5 GHz spectrum, because Comreg couldn't be bothered with managing the licenses with multiple providers in different regions in that band.

/M

MajesticDonkey

I think based on previous broadband rollout plans, using wireless as a solution is "temporary", as Naughton says, but in reality, it'll probably "do the job" for years more.

SkepticQuark

MajesticDonkey wrote: »

I think based on previous broadband rollout plans, using wireless as a solution is "temporary", as Naughton says, but in reality, it'll probably "do the job" for years more.

Band-aid solutions seem to be the only thing Irish governments are capable of doing.

Marlow

roddy15 wrote: »

Band-aid solutions seem to be the only thing Irish governments are capable of doing.

Nah. The government does nothing. They just like to take credit for whatever is done

/M

BarryM

Move on, nothing to see here. Another "going to tender" puff piece. If going to tender is at the usual speed then "end 2018" is an aspiration. Unbelievable that a pol corr would believe this guff. Cop out that wireless will fill in...same old, same old.

Ultimanemo

rodge123 wrote: »

Reads to me that they are gonna take imagines bs hook and line and remove their customers from nbp if they can show they have funding in place to upgrade their lte network to faster speeds as recently stated by bulger.

May be they will try to remove areas, if they remove individual customers that would be stupid move, If I was a customer who is removed from NBP by Imagine, the very next morning I will be ringing other ISPs and leave Imagine ASAP.

BarryM

Interesting assessment of the new owner of eir. - Xavier Neil is also covered. 
https://www.bloomberg.com/gadfly/articles/2018-01-02/billionaire-cable-cowboy-patrick-drahi-is-surrounded

turbbo

More good news on the NBP...suppose if you leave it for 3 - 5 years you'll be well out of office by then - what an inept useless government we have and always seem to have:

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/business/broadband-plan-rollout-three-to-five-years-away-821154.html

marno21

turbbo wrote: »

More good news on the NBP...suppose if you leave it for 3 - 5 years you'll be well out of office by then - what an inept useless government we have and always seem to have:

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/business/broadband-plan-rollout-three-to-five-years-away-821154.html

Did we not know this already? The NBP rollout was always going to take several years, cabling to all the rural premises can't be done overnight.

turbbo

marno21 wrote: »

Did we not know this already? The NBP rollout was always going to take several years, cabling to all the rural premises can't be done overnight.

- does knowing something already make it right?

MajesticDonkey

turbbo wrote: »

- does knowing something already make it right?

The fact that it's going to take 3-5 years is not wrong - the project needs to be done right, and a rollout like this simply takes that length of time. The problem is that it hasn't started yet - it should have been started years ago.

turbbo

MajesticDonkey wrote: »

The fact that it's going to take 3-5 years is not wrong - the project needs to be done right, and a rollout like this simply takes that length of time. The problem is that it hasn't started yet - it should have been started years ago.

It's beyond a joke. Whatever about doing it right - maybe get started??
Wasters.

MajesticDonkey

turbbo wrote: »

It's beyond a joke. Whatever about doing it right - maybe get started??
Wasters.

Like previous NBPs? (i.e. Three)

turbbo

MajesticDonkey wrote: »

Like previous NBPs? (i.e. Three)

Just because it's taking 3 - 5 years doesn't mean they won't take the 5 years and still end up with a crappy wireless job like before. Taking time doesn't equal fibre to the home for everyone, it just means more years wasted.
Expecting a good outcome because it took ages is foolish.

Marlow

Here's a another NBP gold nugget: https://www.galwaydaily.com/news/galway-td-slams-length-national-broadband-plan/

Meh !

/M

AidenL

It will probably be more like 5-7 years in reality.

Marlow

MajesticDonkey wrote: »

Like previous NBPs? (i.e. Three)

Or the Group Broadband Schemes before that. This isn't the 2nd attempt. It's at least the 3rd, if not 4th attempt ... and it still ain't done right.

/M

turbbo

Marlow wrote: »

Or the Group Broadband Schemes before that. This isn't the 2nd attempt. It's at least the 3rd, if not 4th attempt ... and it still ain't done right.

/M

It's pathetic.

listermint

Even the FCC can get this right!

https://www.engadget.com/2018/01/18/fcc-mobile-internet-broadband-replacement/

In the 2018 report, Pai's office concedes that "Mobile services are not full substitutes for fixed services -- there are salient differences between the two technologies."