NBP: National Broadband Plan Announced

MBSnr

Marlow wrote: »

No .. they're actually worse than eir. Because opposed to OpenEIR (which is regulated), the government nor Comreg is interested in regulating eNets pricing of government owned infrastructure, so they can charge whatever they want. (it's a bit more complicated, but you get the picture)

/M

I was originally shocked at their pricing! My understanding is that the original fibre costs have been repaid 1000s of times over since 2003 by their massive yearly rental costs.

Our company MAN costs only reduced because of increased VDSL competition and (I'd imagine Eir's fibre backbone) in the last few years. Although still any supplier has to use eNet in our business park and all quotes we get are within 50 Euro of each other....

fritzelly

I'm envisaging all the civil servants now frantically trying to come up with said Plan B...

Strawberry HillBilly

Siena Gigantic Backyard wrote: »

eir statement:

https://www.eir.ie/pressroom/eir-Withdraws-from-NBP/

Surely they wont renege on this commitment ...or am I just really naive?

I_HAVE_NO_NAME

Are we really surprised though? Collectively at this stage we should b4n it. F*ck the government. NBP was always cursed. Naughton handed OpenEir a gold-mine in the form of the 300K. They are a shower and we know that but they still were best suited for the NBP. As for ESB state owned fibre network that’s where our millions should’ve gone. Now we are left with eNet who’s only exsisting infrastructure are the MAN’s. What a mess... I’d love to see a timeline of all the collective f*ck up’s of this NBP.

billbond4

Someone on the journal posted that with 5g around the corner, vodafone and eir will be able to roll out broadband services a lot quicker and cheaper to laying fiber and i think his right

tsue921i8wljb3

billbond4 wrote: »

Someone on the journal posted that with 5g around the corner, vodafone and eir will be able to roll out broadband services a lot quicker and cheaper to laying fiber and i think his right

I would not be taking technical advice from the comments section of the Journal.

tsue921i8wljb3

Strawberry HillBilly wrote: »

Surely they wont renege on this commitment ...or am I just really naive?

Hopefully they will do as they say. We can only take them at their word.

Gonzo

billbond4 wrote: »

Someone on the journal posted that with 5g around the corner, vodafone and eir will be able to roll out broadband services a lot quicker and cheaper to laying fiber and i think his right

5g will mostly likely just be a faster version of 4g but with the same problems as every other wireless standard. Line of Sight issues, distance from mast, limited bandwidth, contention, tight data caps.

I've no faith in wireless as I have yet to see a wireless service in Ireland that works properly 24/7 and gives the customer a stable connection with more than enough data allowance.

billbond4

True, but as i work in a telecomms company thats developing 5G he made a valid point that the companies are thinking long term

Tigerandahalf

So you have Open eir owning the existing infrastructure on behalf of the state.

Enet will run the fibre cable along said poles and presumably will be responsible for its maintenance.

Then will we see a 3rd company actually buying it wholesale and offering it to the customer.

So your broadband will go down and 3 companies will be blaming each other.

Was any plan put in place to gauge the cost of running fibre in different rural areas?

You would think a state company should be set up to rollout and maintain the fibre and then sell it on.

billbond4

Gonzo wrote: »

5g will mostly likely just be a faster version of 4g but with the same problems as every other wireless standard. Line of Sight issues, distance from mast, limited bandwidth, contention, tight data caps.

I've no faith in wireless as I have yet to see a wireless service in Ireland that works properly 24/7 and gives the customer a stable connection with more than enough data allowance.

5G wont have those issues (if provider buys the right equipment)

the whole year inn

Siena Gigantic Backyard wrote: »

I would not be taking technical advice from the comments section of the Journal.

Hahaha ,that gave me a good laugh.
On the 5g what's is the point having it if only allowed to have 20 gigs download cap.Pointless.

wexfordman2

billbond4 wrote: »

True, but as i work in a telecomms company thats developing 5G he made a valid point that the companies are thinking long term

The first NBS, used 3g, provided by 3irl, since then we have evolved to 4g, and now talk of evolving to 5g. The point is that all these evolutions are short term, fibre is not

MajesticDonkey

billbond4 wrote: »

5G wont have those issues (if provider buys the right equipment)

Of course it'll have those problems - it's wireless. 5G won't change the laws of physics.

TomOnBoard

billbond4 wrote: »

Someone on the journal posted that with 5g around the corner, vodafone and eir will be able to roll out broadband services a lot quicker and cheaper to laying fiber and i think his right

5G may be around the corner, but the corner is at least 3-5years away.

billbond4

the whole year inn wrote: »

Hahaha ,that gave me a good laugh.
On the 5g what's is the point having it if only allowed to have 20 gigs download cap.Pointless.

20gb might be fine for some customers.
At a guess It will probably be sold more on speed packages than allowances

tsue921i8wljb3

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

So you have Open eir owning the existing infrastructure on behalf of the state.

Enet will run the fibre cable along said poles and presumably will be responsible for its maintenance.

Then will we see a 3rd company actually buying it wholesale and offering it to the customer.

So your broadband will go down and 3 companies will be blaming each other.

Was any plan put in place to gauge the cost of running fibre in different rural areas?

You would think a state company should be set up to rollout and maintain the fibre and then sell it on.

There would be no 3rd company. enet will be the wholesaler selling capacity to the retail ISPs similar to how Openeir and SIRO currently operate.

billbond4

TomOnBoard wrote: »

5G may be around the corner, but the corner is at least 3-5years away.

Thats around the corner for infrastructure rollout s in this country

TomOnBoard

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

So you have Open eir owning the existing infrastructure on behalf of the state.

Enet will run the fibre cable along said poles and presumably will be responsible for its maintenance.

Then will we see a 3rd company actually buying it wholesale and offering it to the customer.

So your broadband will go down and 3 companies will be blaming each other.

Was any plan put in place to gauge the cost of running fibre in different rural areas?

You would think a state company should be set up to rollout and maintain the fibre and then sell it on.

OpenEir owns the existing infrastructure on behalf of itself (Eir) not on behalf of the State.

wexfordman2

billbond4 wrote: »

20gb might be fine for some customers.
At a guess It will probably be sold more on speed packages than allowances

I'm working on mobile network design for nearly a quarter of a century, 2g,3g and 4g. Forget it, it's just not a viable solution

listermint

billbond4 wrote: »

Thats around the corner for infrastructure rollout s in this country

You must work in the retail arm , because 5g is no substitute for fibre

It's simply not all the retail speak in the world won't tackle the drawbacks of wireless problems.

You can have all the fancy wireless routers in an office of 300 people but you won't have everyone on wireless. There's a reason everyone has ethernet at their desks. Wireless can't handle the contention.

Tigerandahalf

TomOnBoard wrote: »

OpenEir owns the existing infrastructure on behalf of itself (Eir) not on behalf of the State.

But I thought the state retained ownership of the pole/line infrastructure in the form of Open eir.

Eir is a private company no?

wexfordman2

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

But I thought the state retained ownership of the pole/line infrastructure in the form of Open eir.

Eir is a private company no?

Nope

Tigerandahalf

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Nope

So is Open eir a private company running separately to eir?

tsue921i8wljb3

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

So is Open eir a private company running separately to eir?

No. eir and Openeir are part of the same private company, eir Group. All their infrastructure, poles ducts cables etc is owned by this company.

fritzelly

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

So is Open eir a private company running separately to eir?

OpenEir is a regulated private company that leases to all teleco
Eir retail operates seperately (as far as OpenEir is concerned they are the same as Vodafone etc)
But they are part of the eir Group

Tigerandahalf

fritzelly wrote: »

OpenEir is a regulated private company that leases to all teleco
Eir retail operates seperately (as far as OpenEir is concerned they are the same as Vodafone etc)
But they are part of the eir Group

But could the government set up a state company tomorrow and force either esb or open eir to provide their lines for a cost fee.

fritzelly

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

But could the government set up a state company tomorrow and force either esb or open eir to provide their lines for a cost fee.

They could try, and meet them in court
No private company is going to spend years building an infrastructure that makes no money for them - why wouldn't the government just build it themselves if that was what they wanted to do.

wexfordman2

https://m.independent.ie/business/national-broadband-plan-winner-says-eirs-withdrawal-wont-affect-rollout-timetable-36553079.html


Interesting that they are calling enet the winning bidder!

NIMAN

Thats us rural dwellers fecked royally.

I can't see me getting superfast BB for a LONG time.

Wireless will be my only hope.

Wing126

wexfordman2 wrote: »

https://m.independent.ie/business/national-broadband-plan-winner-says-eirs-withdrawal-wont-affect-rollout-timetable-36553079.html


Interesting that they are calling enet the winning bidder!

They're the only bidder left, so technically they did win.

KOR101

There is no way Eir would simply withdraw and let another company take the remaining rural homes. They must be confident that it's not going to happen.

SkepticQuark

KOR101 wrote: »

There is no way Eir would simply withdraw and let another company take the remaining rural homes. They must be confident that it's not going to happen.

Exactly, Eir won't give up the monopoly on the fixed lines they have that easily.

fritzelly

KOR101 wrote: »

There is no way Eir would simply withdraw and let another company take the remaining rural homes. They must be confident that it's not going to happen.

Why not? Any company continuing it is going to be paying them a lot of money to use the existing network up to the point it ends.
Meanwhile eir can continue to expand it's network in areas where it's more profitable to supply fibre and still be able to use eNet's (if they continue) part of the network if they wish

marno21

I_HAVE_NO_NAME wrote: »

Are we really surprised though? Collectively at this stage we should b4n it. F*ck the government. NBP was always cursed. Naughton handed OpenEir a gold-mine in the form of the 300K. They are a shower and we know that but they still were best suited for the NBP. As for ESB state owned fibre network that’s where our millions should’ve gone. Now we are left with eNet who’s only exsisting infrastructure are the MAN’s. What a mess... I’d love to see a timeline of all the collective f*ck up’s of this NBP.

Naughton didn't hand eir anything. If open eir wanted to expand to those 300k homes there was nothing stopping them in the same way they were free to expand to all the areas they expended to before that.

ED E

Its possible they're willing to forgo low margin rural business in order to try to compete in the urban footprint with Virgin. If you drop all the OPEX for late Q4/early Q1 annually you can stamp down pricing.

plodder

This seems to be the key part of Eir's statement

.. complexity within the tender process, together with growing uncertainty on a range of regulatory and pricing issues that reside outside of the NBP process

The contract was becoming too complex which I can understand

.. and the regulatory environment.... that's harder to figure out. If it's outside the NBP process, then presumably it hasn't gone away, and they still have to deal with it, eg if enet wishes to build a network based on eir's existing infrastructure.

fritzelly

plodder wrote: »

.. and the regulatory environment.... that's harder to figure out. If it's outside the NBP process, then presumably it hasn't gone away, and they still have to deal with it, eg if enet wishes to build a network based on their existing infrastructure.

I guessed that was a dig at Naughten deciding that government should be controlling the pricing of a private company to suit his own agenda. That boat sailed when they sold it off for the money

Gonzo

I reckon Eir could still upgrade some of the small gaps that exist between their rollout areas. There is nothing to really stop them, and it would make sense as all it would involve is continuing the fibre cable and installing a few extra splice box's. There are at least 3 of these type of situations near by area, sections of road that are left out and they still have the same density of housing as most of the 'covered' routes.

Eir's 300k rollout is roughly 1/3 of Ireland's rural housing and these are mostly located within 5km of a town or village. Most of the areas outside of the rollout have far lower density housing, often miles from the nearest town/village and places that have no existing fibre close-by. Eir are probably more than happy to leave this for some other company to worry about while still getting paid for access to their pole network.

ED E

Gonzo wrote: »

I reckon Eir could still upgrade some of the small gaps that exist between their rollout areas. There is nothing to really stop them, and it would make sense as all it would involve is continuing the fibre cable and installing a few extra splice box's. There are at least 3 of these type of situations near by area, sections of road that are left out and they still have the same density of housing as most of the 'covered' routes.

Thing is there's three near everyone. You add 10 houses here, then theres another 10 in range. Add them too. Then maybe add the two beside....

It goes on and on. Gotta cut it somewhere even when that leaves gaps.

Kristopherus

TomOnBoard wrote: »

OpenEir owns the existing infrastructure on behalf of itself (Eir) not on behalf of the State.

How much did they pay the state for it?

tsue921i8wljb3

Say enet get the go ahead to build. Will they be able to use the existing cabling that eir have deployed, using wavelength division multiplexing or fixed access network slicing? Or will they have to overlay cable and have separate splicing boxes in order to reach the NBP premises?

evosteo

Kristopherus wrote: »

How much did they pay the state for it?

the state floated it in 99 and its been flipped about 8 times since at this stage. its been a cash cow for vulture funds, investment funds etc... selling off assets, staff redundancies and driving down working conditions for field staff to the point where there is about 8000/10000 faults nationwide and they havent got the man power to cover it. subbing in contractors will only get you so far.

fritzelly

Siena Gigantic Backyard wrote: »

Say enet get the go ahead to build. Will they be able to use the existing cabling that eir have deployed, using wavelength division multiplexing or fixed access network slicing? Or will they have to overlay cable and have separate splicing boxes in order to reach the NBP premises?

They could do either (but not sure about using fibre on it tho)
There is pricing already laid out for using/leasing etc eir's network on openeir.ie if you have the patience to read thru it

Dev84

Gonzo wrote: »

I reckon Eir could still upgrade some of the small gaps that exist between their rollout areas. There is nothing to really stop them, and it would make sense as all it would involve is continuing the fibre cable and installing a few extra splice box's. There are at least 3 of these type of situations near by area, sections of road that are left out and they still have the same density of housing as most of the 'covered' routes.

Eir's 300k rollout is roughly 1/3 of Ireland's rural housing and these are mostly located within 5km of a town or village. Most of the areas outside of the rollout have far lower density housing, often miles from the nearest town/village and places that have no existing fibre close-by. Eir are probably more than happy to leave this for some other company to worry about while still getting paid for access to their pole network.

Its dead in the water my friend.

seaniefr

How does all this work in relation to Eir siting poles on state owned land? What I mean is do they pay anything for the privilege or this is a legacy condition rolled over from state ownership? Would anyone have any ideas on this?

evosteo

seaniefr wrote: »

How does all this work in relation to Eir siting poles on state owned land? What I mean is do they pay anything for the privilege or this is a legacy condition rolled over from state ownership? Would anyone have any ideas on this?

new poles require planning permission from the local council. old poles are replaced with new

BandMember

Well lads and lassies, that's officially it: the NBP is f**ked!!

Despite what Denis Naughten is saying, there is no plan B. While there are a multitude of things that could happen (including the re-admittance of SIRO and/or Eir along with Imagine, who will no doubt try to cosy up to Enet at the very least if they don't go on their own), the real likelihood is that the clown will continue to spout rubbish about wireless being the solution and we're going to end up with yet another botched failed plan to provide broadband to the country.

Message to the Minister, and read this very carefully: wireless is not the solution. It never was and never will be. I really thought that the Department had learned this from the fiasco that was the NBS, and that's why they were pushing so hard for a fibre solution which would not only solve the problem now, but future proof it for years to come. That was my view on things anyway (rightly or wrongly), and I think they just got screwed over by Eir.

From looking at how this unfolded, it is hard not to conclude that the recent change of ownership put the kibosh on their NBP plans and you would have to wonder how well this decision has gone down internally with their large team of staff who have spent countless hours over a couple of years working on both the NBP tender and the rural rollout in general.

Once again, the real losers are the Irish people - especially those in rural areas. This was a chance to revitalise rural areas and help ease a lot of the problems in Dublin by enticing both companies and people to move back to viable jobs outside the M50 commuter belt.

The only people laughing tonight are Imagine. Expect a PR bombardment over the next while beginning tomorrow - once they get over their hangovers from all the champagne they are drinking tonight that is.

This really is absolutely f**king depressing stuff.... :mad:

seaniefr

Not really what I am getting at. All poles with the exception of the ones on private lands are sited alongside public roads which are state owned meaning you, me and all the rest of the taxpayers in this country via county/city councils so why can this not be factored in?

fritzelly

seaniefr wrote: »

How does all this work in relation to Eir siting poles on state owned land? What I mean is do they pay anything for the privilege or this is a legacy condition rolled over from state ownership? Would anyone have any ideas on this?

For public land they are given a free wayleave
Any agreement with private landowners is between them and eir regarding any payment for that wayleave, but once in place is there forever (iirc)