Renting Out - What I'm looking for, feedback welcome

shruikan2553

Bank statements have come up before. I get mine from AIB online. It would be very easy for me to change details on it. Also looking for 3 months up front would put me off, I would be waiting for a deposit already so that is 4k out of pocket.

Also with such requirements I would be worried about being able to enjoy some piece and quiet.

ABajaninCork

First and last month's rent is unusual here and in the UK, and I doubt you'll find tenants willing to pay that IMO. One month's rent as deposit is usual here, but I guess you could ask for six weeks if the tenant is recently employed or has just left/returned home. One month's rent upfront is reasonable.

With regard to references. A LL reference is essential. I'd also call him and ask about the prospective tenants personally. Employer's reference is also essential if they're working. I take it RA won't be accepted?

I wouldn't be happy about supplying a LL with bank statements. I've never been asked for them. But would it be possible to conduct a credit check? This is done in the US as well as the UK, but not sure about the form here.

It's an excellent idea to hold the deposit in an 'escrow' account. Again, this is usual in the US and UK (In fact it's illegal for the LL to personally hold the tenant deposit in the UK. It has to be lodged in one of the Govt-sponsored deposit protection schemes). But it should be easy enough to get a building society account to place the deposit in.

You should also take photo's of the place BEFORE the tenant moves in and have a comprehensive inventory which you and the tenant should sign at the start of the tenancy. Get a solicitor versed in property law to draw up a proper lease with a suitable break clause inserted. It's an expense at the beginning, but could potentially save you time, money and aggro in the end...

I've offered my opinion based on you managing the property yourself. If you get an agent to manage it, then 10-12% of the annual rent is a usual fee.

mikemac1

My landlord hasn't paid the management fees in my estate in years and owes over 9k. Last I heard they were going to England to declare bankruptcy.

Can I see your bank statements OP? You want an excellent tenant and next time I go house hunting I want an excellent landlord

MarkAnthony

stupid_is_as _stupid_does wrote: »

Hi MarkAnthony,

As you asked for feedback I am giving it as someone currently house hunting. I have seen very few landlords asking for bank statements. A tiny minority. Those ads I immediately ignored as I think it is a complete intrusion on privacy. My loss maybe but I would not budge on that. I have always paid rent and bills on time and have a glowing reference from my last landlord of three years.

Asking for the final month up front is a lot too and although I would be able to pay it I would probably go for somewhere that didnt have that requirement as I have never seen it before and I would prefer to keep the extra money in my bank account than sitting in that of my landlord. That said if someone was really interested in the apartment and there was not much supply that met the same criteria for the renter I do not think this would be a complete no no.

Can I ask a question off you as a landlord (or any other landlords on thread). You say you with the work reference you would want to know the length of tenure of employment. I am just after starting a job; public sector, decent wages and an indefinite contract (i.e not a fixed term contract). Would the fact that I am only starting employment be a negative from a landlords perspective?

Thanks for your input.

Regards length of tenure, as snobby as this sounds it would depend on the job. Just starting a new posting in the civil service would be one thing, just started as a supervisor in Next would be another. Now before the hate mail starts I say this as someone who previous career was as a retailer and wife who worked for a semi-state (and I suppose still does).

In all honesty if it was very recent I'd probably ask for a previous employers reference also. If that had been less than six months I'd probably pass on someone as a tenant.

MarkAnthony

mikemac1 wrote: »

My landlord hasn't paid the management fees in my estate in years and owes over 9k. Last I heard they were going to England to declare bankruptcy.

Can I see your bank statements OP? You want an excellent tenant and next time I go house hunting I want an excellent landlord

While I wouldn't allow you to see whether I was current with my mortgage as it doesn't effect you as a tenant* you'd be very prudent to look at whether I was current with my management fees and I'd be happy to provide that information.

*I'd also be happy to provide in the lease for the procedure if the apartment went into administration. You'd still have a right to pass on this, of course, as it could be seen as hassle and uncertainty, but this is balanced against the legal rights you have given a certain tenure.

stupid_is_as _stupid_does

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Thanks for your input.

Regards length of tenure, as snobby as this sounds it would depend on the job. Just starting a new posting in the civil service would be one thing, just started as a supervisor in Next would be another. Now before the hate mail starts I say this as someone who previous career was as a retailer and wife who worked for a semi-state (and I suppose still does).

In all honesty if it was very recent I'd probably ask for a previous employers reference also. If that had been less than six months I'd probably pass on someone as a tenant.

Ok good to know; nothing I can really do about my length of tenure I suppose so no point worrying. Thanks for your reply.

MarkAnthony

ABajaninCork wrote: »

First and last month's rent is unusual here and in the UK, and I doubt you'll find tenants willing to pay that IMO. One month's rent as deposit is usual here, but I guess you could ask for six weeks if the tenant is recently employed or has just left/returned home. One month's rent upfront is reasonable.

With regard to references. A LL reference is essential. I'd also call him and ask about the prospective tenants personally. Employer's reference is also essential if they're working. I take it RA won't be accepted?

I wouldn't be happy about supplying a LL with bank statements. I've never been asked for them. But would it be possible to conduct a credit check? This is done in the US as well as the UK, but not sure about the form here.

It's an excellent idea to hold the deposit in an 'escrow' account. Again, this is usual in the US and UK (In fact it's illegal for the LL to personally hold the tenant deposit in the UK. It has to be lodged in one of the Govt-sponsored deposit protection schemes). But it should be easy enough to get a building society account to place the deposit in.

You should also take photo's of the place BEFORE the tenant moves in and have a comprehensive inventory which you and the tenant should sign at the start of the tenancy. Get a solicitor versed in property law to draw up a proper lease with a suitable break clause inserted. It's an expense at the beginning, but could potentially save you time, money and aggro in the end...

I've offered my opinion based on you managing the property yourself. If you get an agent to manage it, then 10-12% of the annual rent is a usual fee.

Thanks for your input, some excellent suggestions especially calling the previous LL. Having done this for years with employment refs I usually know when something smells fishy!

Credit checks here - I don't think that's possible unfortunately. I suppose I could check Stubbs but I'm not sure that would give me much info on tenants per se or whether I can even access it as an individual. Good idea though.

Thanks again!

Meathlass

MarkAnthony wrote: »

If that had been less than six months I'd probably pass on someone as a tenant.

If you're looking for professional tenants who may just have moved to Dublin to start work in FB/Google/EBay etc would you discount these even though they may have excellent references from other landlords etc. They would be your target market after all - young single professionals.

MarkAnthony

Meathlass wrote: »

If you're looking for professional tenants who may just have moved to Dublin to start work in FB/Google/EBay etc would you discount these even though they may have excellent references from other landlords etc. They would be your target market after all - young single professionals.

For the sake of clarity that 6 months would have been the previous employ.

If you've 1 month, with a previous employ of 6 years I'm not going to hold that against someone. But 1 Month previously 3 months, that's gonna worry me.

Meathlass

MarkAnthony wrote: »

For the sake of clarity that 6 months would have been the previous employ.

If you've 1 month, with a previous employ of 6 years I'm not going to hold that against someone. But 1 Month previously 3 months, that's gonna worry me.

Depends on the sector - I spent 10 years moving company every 6 months as it was all short term contract work. Probably looks terrible on my CV but no one within my industry would bat an eyelid.

I'd advise identifying any large employers in your area - hospitals, public service departments and asking to put a ad on their notice board. It might help you target your required tenants better than a general ad on Daft.

MarkAnthony

Meathlass wrote: »

Depends on the sector - I spent 10 years moving company every 6 months as it was all short term contract work. Probably looks terrible on my CV but no one within my industry would bat an eyelid.

I'd advise identifying any large employers in your area - hospitals, public service departments and asking to put a ad on their notice board. It might help you target your required tenants better than a general ad on Daft.

I would have been the same at the start of my career to be fair, that said I wouldn't have made a very good tenant on the basis I moved around (location) as much as I did employer (more so if I'm honest).

Wife is on contract work so don't get me wrong, I'm not dismissing that out of hand.

Very good idea ref notice board. Thanks again for your feedback.

dudara

MarkAnthony wrote: »

What about if everything was redacted on say 3 months of statements save for the rent going out?

No bank statements at all, full stop. You have zero right to see my bank account details (in any form). Would you be comfortable to share your bank statements with me? After all, I want to make sure that my landlord is meeting his mortgage, or not risking my potential home in some other manner.

I am professionally employed, with employer's references and an excellent landlord reference (from whom I rented for many years). If this is not enough for you, then I am not happy to rent from you. It's a two way relationship and I need to feel comfortable and confident in my landlord too. I've always approaching renting with the intention of developing a trustworthy relationship from the outset. So far, it's worked.

WRT to the employer's reference, bear in mind that many large companies have a template that they fill in for employees. You might want to know the length of employment, but the employer might not want to tell you. You can't hold this against the tenant.

WRT to the final month of rent. This is not the common practice in the Irish market and TBH, it would mean that I'd lose interest in your property. In the current market in Dublin, that could easily be €1,000 - €2,000 extra (depending).

MarkAnthony

dudara wrote: »

No bank statements at all, full stop. You have zero right to see my bank account details (in any form). Would you be comfortable to share your bank statements with me? After all, I want to make sure that my landlord is meeting his mortgage, or not risking my potential home in some other manner.

I've every right to request them. You're perfectly entitled to rent from a land lord else where. As I've stated above my mortgage commitments make no difference to you if provided for in the lease, I'm happy to provide a statement that my management fees (something that may very well effect you) are upto date as well as my PRTB registration, home address and telephone number. If I had any I'd be more than happy to provide a reference as a land lord but I won't have those until next time around.

dudara wrote: »

I am professionally employed, with employer's references and an excellent landlord reference (from whom I rented for many years). If this is not enough for you, then I am not happy to rent from you. It's a two way relationship and I need to feel comfortable and confident in my landlord too. I've always approaching renting with the intention of developing a trustworthy relationship from the outset. So far, it's worked.

I'm sorry but I'm not willing to take that risk with someone in a purely business relationship, especially when the law puts them in a favourable position.

dudara wrote: »

WRT to the employer's reference, bear in mind that many large companies have a template that they fill in for employees. You might want to know the length of employment, but the employer might not want to tell you. You can't hold this against the tenant.

Of course I can, I can hold anything I like against the tenant that isn't one of the grounds covered by equality legislation.

dudara wrote: »

WRT to the final month of rent. This is not the common practice in the Irish market and TBH, it would mean that I'd lose interest in your property. In the current market in Dublin, that could easily be €1,000 - €2,000 extra (depending).

That's a fair comment, but again I see it as a safer bet for the tenant than six weeks rent say, perception is everything though and if people are really that opposed to it I might go down the six weeks rent route. A bit silly though IMHO as I'd be much happier with my final month rent paid and my deposit in escrow. In that situation a rouge landlord would hold none of the chips.

Triceratops Ballet

I feel this is asking way too much of any renter. 3 months rent up front? while I have it ans so could pay it, it's in my bank account earning interest and thats where I'd want it to stay.

Just out of interest is this list of conditions standard practice elsewhere?

you have said a few times that the status of your mortgage would have no effect on your tennant IF you were in arrears and the bank wanted you to sell that would have an effect. There have been cases in the news recently where properties have been reposessed or sold by the bank and the tennents just lost their homes. Its only fair that if you want potential tennants to fully disclose their private financial history that they should expect the same from you.

Tbh I would meet all your requirements, but I would skip the ad if I was looking, its too much

drumswan

MarkAnthony wrote: »

I've every right to request them. You're perfectly entitled to rent from a land lord else where. As I've stated above my mortgage commitments make no difference to you if provided for in the lease

How do you figure? If your property goes into recievership the tenant loses the protections provided in the Residential Tenacies Act.

ABajaninCork

OP - You're treading on dangerous ground if you insist on seeing bank statements. People on here have already told you you have NO RIGHT to see personal information, and they (myself included) wouldn't be happy to give you that information. You can ask all you like. Potential tenants would have every right to tell you to sugar off. Don't believe me? Check with the Data Commissioner...

I thought you were looking for opinions and taking on board perfectly valid suggestions.

Your last post would indicate to me that you're not willing to be a reasonable landlord. And with that attitude, I wouldn't be willing to rent from you.

MarkAnthony

dottie_lottie wrote: »

I feel this is asking way too much of any renter. 3 months rent up front? while I have it ans so could pay it, it's in my bank account earning interest and thats where I'd want it to stay.

Just out of interest is this list of conditions standard practice elsewhere?

In many states in the US a full credit history, or at least a credit score would be available, first and last months rent is common, which to be fair makes it easier as you didn't pay the last month when you move into the new place and had to pay the first and last.

Security deposit shouldn't be an issue either as it's simply transferred from the old place. Ironically I probably wouldn't take the same level of precautions in the states as I'd have a credit score and tenancy law drafted in a more balanced fashion.

dottie_lottie wrote: »

you have said a few times that the status of your mortgage would have no effect on your tennant IF you were in arrears and the bank wanted you to sell that would have an effect. There have been cases in the news recently where properties have been reposessed or sold by the bank and the tennents just lost their homes. Its only fair that if you want potential tennants to fully disclose their private financial history that they should expect the same from you.

The change of ownership doesn't negate the tenants rights, that's why apartments that enter repossession , generally, go into administration. This can be provided for in the lease. The reason I say it doesn't effect the tenant is, subject to tenancy law, the landlord can ask the tenant to leave at any point anyway so there is no real security of tenure as a renter.

There may be issues with lesser notice being required for the bank to sell the property but this isn't the same as someone being quite happy on the Monday and out on the street on the Tuesday. It takes weeks/months for the repossession to happen and the bank has no interest in the property being empty if it's rented.

All in all a risk you have to take, just as I'm taking a risk by looking for say 3 months redacted bank statements rather than a full credit history that would be required in every-other developed country.

dottie_lottie wrote: »

Tbh I would meet all your requirements, but I would skip the ad if I was looking, its too much

Thank you for the input, it's appreciated, I hope you don;t mind me answering your points directly.

drumswan

If you are requesting sensitive data like bank statements you are legally making yourself a data controller under the data protection act, you'll need to follow the legal requirements here:

http://www.dataprotection.ie/viewdoc.asp?m=&fn=/documents/responsibilities/3bii.htm

The truth is high-end professional tenants are not going to trust the average Irish landlord with this info and you are ruling yourself out of attracting those type of tenants, leaving you with the rest of the market to choose from. You'll probably be shooting yourself in the foot here.

MarkAnthony

ABajaninCork wrote: »

OP - You're treading on dangerous ground if you insist on seeing bank statements. People on here have already told you you have NO RIGHT to see personal information, and they (myself included) wouldn't be happy to give you that information. You can ask all you like. Potential tenants would have every right to tell you to sugar off. Don't believe me? Check with the Data Commissioner...

I thought you were looking for opinions and taking on board perfectly valid suggestions.

Your last post would indicate to me that you're not willing to be a reasonable landlord. And with that attitude, I wouldn't be willing to rent from you.

As I've said I'm simply stating I have a right to ask for them. Everything else being provided is personal information. People have the right to refuse any of the requests for information, the corollary of that is that I have the right to refuse to let to that person.

I'm sorry that bank statements have hit a sore point and I'm taking that on board, that said I may still ask for them or I may not, still haven't decided.

MarkAnthony

drumswan wrote: »

How do you figure? If your property goes into recievership the tenant loses the protections provided in the Residential Tenacies Act.

Hmm that's a good point to be fair, I'm not sure you lose the rights, I'm open to correction there, but the receiver certainly enjoys protection from legal action.

Might have to rethink supplying my statements then in fairness.

Lau2976

I'm curious as to what you would do about the self employed?

Personally as someone who rents I would never feel comfortable showing any LL my bank statements or handing over such a large amount of money, I'd be inclined to pass the place up, even if I was in love with it. Calling the previous LL or getting a reference seems like the most sensible idea, if your untrustworthy of theirs, ask for the previous LL before them.

MarkAnthony

drumswan wrote: »

If you are requesting sensitive data like bank statements you are legally making yourself a data controller under the data protection act, you'll need to follow the legal requirements here:

http://www.dataprotection.ie/viewdoc.asp?m=&fn=/documents/responsibilities/3bii.htm

The truth is high-end professional tenants are not going to trust the average Irish landlord with this info and you are ruling yourself out of attracting those type of tenants, leaving you with the rest of the market to choose from. You'll probably be shooting yourself in the foot here.

I'd be very surprised if this didn't apply to employment and landlord references in all honesty - thanks for the pointer though!

shruikan2553

You are trying to find the perfect tenants, the problem for you is the perfect tenants could get a place anywhere else with a lot less effort. Unless you are offering a very good deal in a very nice place many would take up your offer of looking elsewhere.

I am assuming you are an amateur landlord as well. People may be a bit more willing to hand over information to a professional with the likes of data protection in place but not hand it over to Seamus down the road.

MarkAnthony

shruikan2553 wrote: »

You are trying to find the perfect tenants, the problem for you is the perfect tenants could get a place anywhere else with a lot less effort. Unless you are offering a very good deal in a very nice place many would take up your offer of looking elsewhere.

I am assuming you are an amateur landlord as well. People may be a bit more willing to hand over information to a professional with the likes of data protection in place but not hand it over to Seamus down the road.

I am considering going though a letting agent, that said the data won't be stored so I'd be surprised if there are many particularly onerous requirements. Point taken and thanks for the input.

P_1

Right so I'm going to break this down into a few segments.

3 months rent upfront (1st and last months + deposit) is more than likely pricing yourself out of the market. Realistically if a potential tenant had that much cash available then chances are they wouldn't be looking at a one bed in D8.

12 months of bank statements are going to scare off a lot of potential tenants plus it opens yourself up to all sorts of data controller related fun and games.

Employer + landlord references are usually standard but taking an employer's policy related reluctance to reveal certain information into account again might be pricing yourself out of the market.

Deposit being put into an escrow account is a fantastic idea, will it be yourself or the tenant who benefits from any potential interest though?

Long story short, I think you are putting too many conditions in place for the property you are offering and may be creating undue hassle for securing a tenant. These would work fine for a penthouse in the docklands but potentially not worth the hassle for a one bed in D8. In my eyes if I were looking for a one bed in D8, I'd take one look at the conditions you are attaching and swiftly move elsewhere in my search.

MarkAnthony

Lau2976 wrote: »

I'm curious as to what you would do about the self employed?

Personally as someone who rents I would never feel comfortable showing any LL my bank statements or handing over such a large amount of money, I'd be inclined to pass the place up, even if I was in love with it. Calling the previous LL or getting a reference seems like the most sensible idea, if your untrustworthy of theirs, ask for the previous LL before them.

Honestly, I'd probably definitely be looking for proof of cash-flow on this one, even if I'd decided not to request bank statements from employed tenants self-employed would give me pause for thought. It's actually an excellent point as where I am might very well attract one particular self-employed profession.

MarkAnthony

P_1 wrote: »

Right so I'm going to break this down into a few segments.

3 months rent upfront (1st and last months + deposit) is more than likely pricing yourself out of the market. Realistically if a potential tenant had that much cash available then chances are they wouldn't be looking at a one bed in D8.

12 months of bank statements are going to scare off a lot of potential tenants plus it opens yourself up to all sorts of data controller related fun and games.

Employer + landlord references are usually standard but taking an employer's policy related reluctance to reveal certain information into account again might be pricing yourself out of the market.

Deposit being put into an escrow account is a fantastic idea, will it be yourself or the tenant who benefits from any potential interest though?

Long story short, I think you are putting too many conditions in place for the property you are offering and may be creating undue hassle for securing a tenant. These would work fine for a penthouse in the docklands but potentially not worth the hassle for a one bed in D8. In my eyes if I were looking for a one bed in D8, I'd take one look at the conditions you are attaching and swiftly move elsewhere in my search.

To be fair I did answer that above. I'd be more inclined to think there would be fees though which I'm afraid I'd pass on to the tenant.

gubbie

MarkAnthony wrote: »

In many states in the US...

... required in every-other developed country.

Every? I've rented in both the UK and Switzerland (as well as Ireland). In the UK the only thing me and my partner had to prove was that just one of us had work and that we had a minimum combined income of £18,000 (So showing our contracts). In Switzerland, I had to give a 2 month deposit but I had no credit check.

You could ask for it all, but if this thread is anything to go by, you will have a lot less people applying. You'll miss out on a lot of good people.

MarkAnthony

gubbie wrote: »

Every? I've rented in both the UK and Switzerland (as well as Ireland). In the UK the only thing me and my partner had to prove was that just one of us had work and that we had a minimum combined income of £18,000 (So showing our contracts). In Switzerland, I had to give a 2 month deposit but I had no credit check.

You could ask for it all, but if this thread is anything to go by, you will have a lot less people applying. You'll miss out on a lot of good people.

Apologies hyperbole. However the use of credit referencing for tenants is pretty common place, even in the UK. I'm not actually even looking for two months deposit in lieu of a credit check, just that the final month's rent is paid. I'll use this opportunity to reiterate the difference.

Excellent point ref the proof of income. Perhaps that might be a better request (via the employee reference by way of a salary cert) rather than asking for bank statements; I realise that's still controversial but I'm willing to diminish the pool of potential tenants to a degree.

percy212

Drug dealers? Lots of cash for greedy landlords.

You are not in the USA man. Cop on. You can't apply what you see as useful rules to a locality that does not accept them.

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Honestly, I'd probably definitely be looking for proof of cash-flow on this one, even if I'd decided not to request bank statements from employed tenants self-employed would give me pause for thought. It's actually an excellent point as where I am might very well attract one particular self-employed profession.