Renting Out - What I'm looking for, feedback welcome

MarkAnthony

percy212 wrote: »

Drug dealers? Lots of cash for greedy landlords.

You are not in the USA man. Cop on. You can't apply what you see as useful rules to a locality that does not accept them.

I'll ask again for the feedback to be constructive and not hostile. The fact of the matter is that given supply I'd probably get away with every thing in the OP and then some. This is evidenced by the fact that people are willing to rent kips. I'm trying to get some constructive feedback and some alternative suggestions - I provided an outlet in the OP if you didn't want to do that.

I've no intention of putting a tenant into a kip, I've a nice apartment I've spent a lot of money on and am alive to the fact that the bathroom will probably need replacing before I rent it. I've seen plenty of property on Daft on a worse state than mine going for around the same money. I'm simply trying to protect myself from people who would wreck the place and/or not pay the rent. If I was renting out a slum I would probably just go with a bog standard deposit,

I'm not and would not do that. I'm all for rent reform, but that reform will work both ways, it will offer more protection for the LL as well as for the tenant. I'm simply putting in my own protections, something some may argue any LL can do without the need for regulation. I think I've been pretty fair in relation to escrow, proving the home is secure, looking at an alternative to bank statements and have only ever responded in a hostile manner when (maybe only perceived) hostility was used.

Thanks again to everyone who has provided constructive criticism.

TwoShedsJackson

It's good to see someone putting thought into all this, but the bank statement thing would be a complete turnoff for me, and many others.

You, as landlord, really need to know one main thing about the tenant - will they pay the rent every month, and on time? That will be covered by the reference from their previous landlord.

Mrs OBumble

gubbie wrote: »

Every? I've rented in both the UK and Switzerland (as well as Ireland). In the UK the only thing me and my partner had to prove was that just one of us had work and that we had a minimum combined income of £18,000 (So showing our contracts). In Switzerland, I had to give a 2 month deposit but I had no credit check.

You could ask for it all, but if this thread is anything to go by, you will have a lot less people applying. You'll miss out on a lot of good people.

I own a property in a developed country that's nothing like the US. Neither my property manager or I would ever dream of accepting a tenant without a credit check - it's just asking for trouble.

The fact that Ireland doesn't have an effective credit-checking mechanism is a real problem, IMHO, and leads to things like landlords asking for bank statements. At home I'd see that as unnecessary.

quietsailor

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

It's good to see someone putting thought into all this, but the bank statement thing would be a complete turnoff for me, and many others.

You, as landlord, really need to know one main thing about the tenant - will they pay the rent every month, and on time? That will be covered by the reference from their previous landlord.

Not necessarily - there have been loads of threads recently (3 months) about people making up references, looking for info on how to get around references, threads on how to mask bad references -- previous references aren't a complete proof of ability to pay rent.

You'd want a very detailed reference with the LL's work address/phone number so you have someone to trace and even then your taking a chance that it isn't a friend of the tenant writing the reference and answering the phone.

Maybe if you had an on-line depository of references tied to the PRTB database I'd trust a reference implicitly. I wouldn't trust a reference now though.

cob1

As you are asking someone to trust you with 3k of their money I presume you would be ok with giving a tenant 12 months of your bank statements (showing previous rental income arriving, a good balance and regular mortgage payments) plus letters from your bank stating that the mortgage is paid in full, a reference from your job to show you are in stable employment etc. etc.

OldNotWIse

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Firstly I don't mind if this becomes a more general discussion but if your input is simply I wouldn't rent from you then please simply thank the post below this one. That is absolutely your right the only thing I would say is I have a right to protect myself as well.

Anyways with that caveat here's what I propose

-First and last months rent
-Security Deposit to the value of one months rent
-Reference from previous Land Lord
-Employment reference (or 2 in the case of a couple)
-Bank Statements for the previous X time - All info can be redacted on this except the SO showing the rent going out each month and their pay going in (possibly). This is the bit I'm particularity torn on; 12 months and pay seems onerous, 3 months rent only seems like it doesn't show a track record.

This is a one bed in D8, everything above board, well spec'd etc. looking for a professional couple rent c.€1000 per month with parking.

Thoughts?

12 months bank statements? Are you giving them a lease or a mortgage?

OldNotWIse

cob1 wrote: »

As you are asking someone to trust you with 3k of their money I presume you would be ok with giving a tenant 12 months of your bank statements (showing previous rental income arriving, a good balance and regular mortgage payments) plus letters from your bank stating that the mortgage is paid in full, a reference from your job to show you are in stable employment etc. etc.

..and let's not forget proof of registration with PRTB, since we want "everything above board".

cob1

OldNotWIse wrote: »

..and let's not forget proof of registration with PRTB, since we want "everything above board".

and a tax clearance cert...

OldNotWIse

cob1 wrote: »

and a tax clearance cert...

and possibly a reference from previous two tenants confirming that their deposits were not withheld for no reason.

Francie Barrett

I would never, ever give bank statements.

Gone West

OP is looking to justify his demands here, he is not looking to be challenged on them.
Sounds like the bathroom is a kip, but the fact that he will only "probably" replace it says a lot.

Why the obsession with cash flow?

You mention that it's a landlords market, well increase the rent in this case. That's the flexible part of this equation. Adding in silly demands like redacted bank statements is laughable.

MarkAnthony

Cob1 and Oldnotwise; (edit and now Fuzzy)

If you're going to ignore the OP and simply try and be smart could you please read through the rest of the thread where the majority of your questions have been answered, and the 'trust with 3K aspect' has been done to the absolute death. As I've pointed out paying the final months rent is not the same as a double deposit and I'm more than happy for the tenant to put the deposit in escrow.

Tenant is more than welcome to see my management fee's are up to date, PRTB reg (which I think I even said in the OP) and tax return. I will also be asking any outgoing tenants if they're okay with a phone call/written reference being requested from them. There are other issues with a LL giving a tenant bank statements, such as it breeding a certain type of entitlement attitude; which is why I may reconsider that point. That said it will probably still be a fall back for people that can't/won't provide a salary cert.

TL;DR at least read the thread if you're going to pass unhelpful comments.

cob1

yeah I did read the thread, i'll take your reply as a no then.

sure my question was a bit tongue in cheek, but I think the point is fair, of course you are not happy giving out your personal information yet you expect others to be.

it's a landlords market, do whatever you like and you'll still probably fill the place as long as its half decent. these requirements will alienate plenty of decent tenants though. anyone who is truly bad news will be able to manufacture some fakes for you so you might end up doing the opposite of what you're trying to achieve.

MarkAnthony

Fuzzy wrote: »

OP is looking to justify his demands here, he is not looking to be challenged on them.

To address this point, where people (most posters) have been generous enough to make constructive criticism I have replied and continue to reply looking to dig down into there objection more to better understand it. There is no point in trying to do that with someone who is clearly not willing to engage and is just here for petty point scoring.

Thanks again to people who have provided constructive criticism. I think I have a better idea what I'm going to look at and will post it up in a while for further feedback.

Lau2976

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Honestly, I'd probably definitely be looking for proof of cash-flow on this one, even if I'd decided not to request bank statements from employed tenants self-employed would give me pause for thought. It's actually an excellent point as where I am might very well attract one particular self-employed profession.

But surely there is other ways to find out other then bank statements? If someone is able to hand over 3k and has good references I would presume that's a pretty decent sign that they are currently able to pay.

As someone who is self employed, I can often go weeks without making anything more then a few hundred euro and then get large sums, I really wouldn't feel comfortable handing over my bank statements. Would you request proof of payment? Or want to see the balance?

I have never missed a payment before, and my previous LL have given references vouching this. My LL has taken these with good faith, as I think all tenants and LL do whether self employed or not.

tinkerbell

Asking for bank statements is bloody ridiculous. It is absolutely none of your business what your prospective tenants net income is each month. The only people looking for bank statements are the bank, when providing finance, not some landlord who feels entitled to know this info. You're asking for three months' rent up front, that in itself is more than enough.

allibastor

MarkAnthony wrote: »

I've every right to request them. You're perfectly entitled to rent from a land lord else where. As I've stated above my mortgage commitments make no difference to you if provided for in the lease, I'm happy to provide a statement that my management fees (something that may very well effect you) are upto date as well as my PRTB registration, home address and telephone number. If I had any I'd be more than happy to provide a reference as a land lord but I won't have those until next time around.



I'm sorry but I'm not willing to take that risk with someone in a purely business relationship, especially when the law puts them in a favourable position.



Of course I can, I can hold anything I like against the tenant that isn't one of the grounds covered by equality legislation.



That's a fair comment, but again I see it as a safer bet for the tenant than six weeks rent say, perception is everything though and if people are really that opposed to it I might go down the six weeks rent route. A bit silly though IMHO as I'd be much happier with my final month rent paid and my deposit in escrow. In that situation a rouge landlord would hold none of the chips.

Hi,

Just from these comments alone I don't think being a landlord is the right choice for you.
You seem to be very intent on what is right for you, and not the other way around.

As a tenant it is 100% correct that they should be able to see your bank statements if you can see theirs. What if you haven't paid the Mortgage in 2 years and have a repossession order in place. I could potentially rent from you and give you 3K, then spend my time and money moving in, only to be turfed out again a week later.

From the outset you seemed like a very anal person, obsessed with your own entitlements etc. Yes, being a landlord in todays market gives you more power as rental space is limited, and you will most likely get a tenant due to this fact and no other. But would I rent from you? Not in your life!!
you sound like the landlord who would wreck anyone's head with requests and inspections every other week.

MarkAnthony

cob1 wrote: »

yeah I did read the thread, i'll take your reply as a no then.

sure my question was a bit tongue in cheek, but I think the point is fair, of course you are not happy giving out your personal information yet you expect others to be.

it's a landlords market, do whatever you like and you'll still probably fill the place as long as its half decent. these requirements will alienate plenty of decent tenants though. anyone who is truly bad news will be able to manufacture some fakes for you so you might end up doing the opposite of what you're trying to achieve.

In fairness I did answer that above in a couple of places. There are good reasons not to supply them, and good reasons for the tenant not to supply them. I've been pretty clear in my posts that whats good for the goose is good for the gander. There are some restrictions though ofc, and lets not forget the tenant is at the advantage legally.

JaMarcusHustle

The only issue I have with what the OP is asking is 3 months rent up front. It's a lot to ask for.

I've only ever viewed 3 different apartments in my time in Dublin, and all 3 occasions I was offered the apartment despite there being high demand and a lot of people interested at the viewings.

Reason being that I always bring a pack with me. Includes an introduction with a bit of background info on me and why I wanted to rent those particular apartments, landlord references for every property I've ever rented, current employer reference, bank statement for the last year (though only for a separate deposit account I have set up for rent, i.e. they see X amount go in on payday, and X amount come out on rent day - very clean and demonstrates that my rent is paid in full, on time every month) and a copy of my most recent payslip to show that I can actually afford the apartment. I print out all these and put them into a pack for the landlord.

Might be a bit much for some people, and that's fine. But I have no problem providing it as it clearly gives me an advantage over those that aren't willing to provide it.

A couple of people I've told this have said "if they see your payslip, they'll know how much wiggle room they can have with regards to asking for a higher rent". That may be true, but personally this hasn't happened me yet. Besides, they can ask all they want. I'll have a price in mind that I won't go above so it really doesn't matter. I've also been asked if I would be comfortable with a stranger having all that information even if I didn't get the apartment. Again, it hasn't happened me, but there's nothing they can do with the info I give anyway - anything sensitive like PPS No. (even though there's feck all they can do with that) has been cropped out so it really doesn't bother me.

Shivi111

Hi,
I think you have the best of intentions but in reality I wouldn't rent from you.
I wouldn't give a landlord my bank statements.
I would expect to be asked for a landlord reference, and a statement from my employer to say that I do work there.
I think you are asking for too much rent in advance, I would be concerned about handing over that amount of money off the bat.
It may not be the case but if I recieved a list like this from a potential landlord I would walk away, assuming that they were going to be problematic in the long run.

MarkAnthony

Guys/Gals,

lets move away from the bank statements. While I may still ask for these regardless of what I do I'll be looking for proof of income, probably through a salary cert within the employment reference. If you don't like that there was an outlet provided in post 2. As for salary certs, more than happy to show these to tenants.

As for judgement as to me as a landlord, please keep that to yourself. Having been a landlord before without complaint from tenants I don't need your conjuncture some of which are now bordering on personal attacks.

Please keep it civil, I've been civil with the majority of my replies. It's fine if you want to attack but you're ignoring the fact that I'm trying to do things differently and trying to protect both parties.

For the final time, if you've a constructive criticism I'm delighted to hear it, if not please simple jog on.

MarkAnthony

JaMarcusHustle wrote: »

The only issue I have with what the OP is asking is 3 months rent up front. It's a lot to ask for.

I've only ever viewed 3 different apartments in my time in Dublin, and all 3 occasions I was offered the apartment despite there being high demand and a lot of people interested at the viewings.

Reason being that I always bring a pack with me. Includes an introduction with a bit of background info on me and why I wanted to rent those particular apartments, landlord references for every property I've ever rented, current employer reference, bank statement for the last year (though only for a separate deposit account I have set up for rent, i.e. they see X amount go in on payday, and X amount come out on rent day - very clean and demonstrates that my rent is paid in full, on time every month) and a copy of my most recent payslip to show that I can actually afford the apartment. I print out all these and put them into a pack for the landlord.

Might be a bit much for some people, and that's fine. But I have no problem providing it as it clearly gives me an advantage over those that aren't willing to provide it.

A couple of people I've told this have said "if they see your payslip, they'll know how much wiggle room they can have with regards to asking for a higher rent". That may be true, but personally this hasn't happened me yet. Besides, they can ask all they want. I'll have a price in mind that I won't go above so it really doesn't matter. I've also been asked if I would be comfortable with a stranger having all that information even if I didn't get the apartment. Again, it hasn't happened me, but there's nothing they can do with the info I give anyway - anything sensitive like PPS No. (even though there's feck all they can do with that) has been cropped out so it really doesn't bother me.

I'd rather be €50/100 a month down on rent and have a tenant that was this organised and responsible. I'd also have the rent on the Ad - I wouldn't really to want to start taking bids I'd rather pick the ideal tenant (in my eyes).

Thanks for your input. I've a few friends who do something very similar hence my surprise to some of the vitriol here in all honesty. That's no criticism of the people providing constructive feed back that's appreciated.

OldNotWIse

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Cob1 and Oldnotwise; (edit and now Fuzzy)

If you're going to ignore the OP and simply try and be smart could you please read through the rest of the thread where the majority of your questions have been answered, and the 'trust with 3K aspect' has been done to the absolute death. As I've pointed out paying the final months rent is not the same as a double deposit and I'm more than happy for the tenant to put the deposit in escrow.

Tenant is more than welcome to see my management fee's are up to date, PRTB reg (which I think I even said in the OP) and tax return. I will also be asking any outgoing tenants if they're okay with a phone call/written reference being requested from them. There are other issues with a LL giving a tenant bank statements, such as it breeding a certain type of entitlement attitude; which is why I may reconsider that point. That said it will probably still be a fall back for people that can't/won't provide a salary cert.

TL;DR at least read the thread if you're going to pass unhelpful comments.

Oh, do you mean the part where you pretty much said that anyone who dares to disagree with you must simply thank the second post but refrain from posting?

I think I too might start a discussion thread and stipulate that those who do not share my views are banned from posting. How......interesting that would be

ABajaninCork

Just had another thought OP. If the prospective tenant provides a LL reference, could you cross check on the PRTB database? If you're registered, it shouldn't be a problem. Might also provide another layer of protection, if you will...

EDIT - Following on from my first post about the 'escrow' account. If you do get one, keep it in your name, and let the tenant have the details. This will reassure them you haven't done a runner with the deposit money!

OldNotWIse

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Firstly I don't mind if this becomes a more general discussion but if your input is simply I wouldn't rent from you then please simply thank the post below this one. That is absolutely your right the only thing I would say is I have a right to protect myself as well.

Anyways with that caveat here's what I propose

-First and last months rent
-Security Deposit to the value of one months rent
-Reference from previous Land Lord
-Employment reference (or 2 in the case of a couple)
-Bank Statements for the previous X time - All info can be redacted on this except the SO showing the rent going out each month and their pay going in (possibly). This is the bit I'm particularity torn on; 12 months and pay seems onerous, 3 months rent only seems like it doesn't show a track record.

This is a one bed in D8, everything above board, well spec'd etc. looking for a professional couple rent c.€1000 per month with parking.

Thoughts?

You should probably clarify what kind of thoughts we should post.

Gone West

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Cob1 and Oldnotwise; (edit and now Fuzzy)

If you're going to ignore the OP and simply try and be smart could you please read through the rest of the thread where the majority of your questions have been answered, and the 'trust with 3K aspect' has been done to the absolute death. As I've pointed out paying the final months rent is not the same as a double deposit and I'm more than happy for the tenant to put the deposit in escrow.

Tenant is more than welcome to see my management fee's are up to date, PRTB reg (which I think I even said in the OP) and tax return. I will also be asking any outgoing tenants if they're okay with a phone call/written reference being requested from them. There are other issues with a LL giving a tenant bank statements, such as it breeding a certain type of entitlement attitude; which is why I may reconsider that point. That said it will probably still be a fall back for people that can't/won't provide a salary cert.

TL;DR at least read the thread if you're going to pass unhelpful comments.

Deluded. Go post on the Irish landlord forums and you will be laughed out of there just as you have been laughed out of here.

Blingy

I am a long term tenant. I haven't read the whole thread however just wanted to note these days it usually costs a fee to get 12 months bank statements. I get them once a year however should I need to request them there is a fee. Would the landlord be paying this fee? Another thing to take into account.
Personally I have never been asked for statements.

irelandrover

Fuzzy wrote: »

Deluded. Go post on the Irish landlord forums and you will be laughed out of there just as you have been laughed out of here.

If you ignore the bank statements then the OP isn't asking that much more than normal.

And asking for the first and lasts months rent seems smart with the amount of people that seem to think not paying the last month is acceptable.

To me it seems that the OP seems like a responsible landlord. Wants to make sure that the tenant is secure and will take care of the property. If i was looking to rent then as long as the apartment was nice having to pay the lasts months rent at the start wouldn't put me off. It could actually be a good thing as when i was moving it means that I'd be able to pay the next deposit easily enough as Id have no rent due that month.

The only question I'd have is what if the rent changes while i am in yteh apartment for a few years.

MarkAnthony

OldNotWIse wrote: »

You should probably clarify what kind of thoughts we should post.

In all honesty; the kind of thought wanted are very clearly set out. If you want to be constructive I'm happy to have a conversation. If not, please don't post here again. You're not reading things in their entirety.

Fuzzy wrote: »

Deluded. Go post on the Irish landlord forums and you will be laughed out of there just as you have been laughed out of here.

Fuzzy, please go away. You're not willing to be constructive. I've asked you politely, I've fully engaged with everyone who has been constructive 98% of which have been against what I was proposing.

OldNotWIse

Blingy wrote: »

I am a long term tenant. I haven't read the whole thread however just wanted to note these days it usually costs a fee to get 12 months bank statements. I get them once a year however should I need to request them there is a fee. Would the landlord be paying this fee? Another thing to take into account.
Personally I have never been asked for statements.

I've been asked for payslips and had no problem handing them over, but I think it's a false security tbh. Proof that you are earning money, but not a guarantee that you will make sure that money goes to LL each month! There's also an implicit insult in the request, that those on lower wages are more likely to scheme and avoid payment. I know plenty of people on low incomes who have never been a day late.