Mining the moon may not be the brightest idea

Kermit.de.frog

The moon is an important satellite of the earth directly influencing tides and the rotation of Earth's axis due to it's gravity.

I am fed up to the back teeth of watching endless documentaries about mining the moon and all the good private companies are doing to achieve it. Never once is the most obvious problem mentioned.

If the moon is mined at 10 times the rate at which oil is extracted on Earth (claims made of potential by said companies) then this represents a real and substantial risk to the Earth for the simple reason that the moon's gravity is directly proportional to it's weight. This is obviously not oil they will extract. It is much heavier solid elements.

Start removing weight and mass on such a scale and the gravitational interaction would be affected which would have possibly fatal consequences for us in terms of tides and seasons.

By removing weight from the moon this can be achieved but it's effect is possibly greater from the fact that resources go to Earth which makes our planet heavier as well whilst making the moon lighter.

Obviously initially this would hardly be a problem but if scaled up to what is being thought about now in terms of mining it might not be too long before it is a serious problem.

I can not understand why every documentary on mining the moon fails to point this out.

I am not against mining the moon. I just have reservations.

Any thoughts on this theory - i'd be happy to read it. Thanks.

obriendj

the mass of the earth is 5.97219 × 10^24 kg
the mass of the Moon is roughly 1 per cent of the earth. 7.34767309 × 10^22 kilograms.

How much mining would have to be carried out before a significant? How much mass must leave the moon and come to earth before it has become significant?
I am making a guess here but I would suspect it would be in the region of ~0.1% of its mass. which is 7 x 10^19 kg
How long would it take to mine 10 Quintillion KG of moon mass and transfer it back to earth?

dbran

And you assume that most of it will be going back to the Earth.

Most of it would be for use on the Moon as the cost of transporting the equivalent material from Earth to the Moon would be prohibitive in terms of the energy required.

dbran

Stan27

Ha I came here for the sole purpose to start this conversation. You bet me by 2 days ha ha. Yes I saw a documentary abut tithe mining of helium 3 for energy. And yes I agree te moon is so important for the stabilisation of earth that any effect no matter how small could be a massive global disaster here on earth. But as it is obviously so big. I presume it would be monitored. Money is no good if we are dead. I think a couple years of mining to set up everything, before the mining of all the unlimited, minerals in the asteroid belt

RebelButtMunch

obriendj wrote: »

the mass of the earth is 5.97219 × 10^24 kg
the mass of the Moon is roughly 1 per cent of the earth. 7.34767309 × 10^22 kilograms.

How much mining would have to be carried out before a significant? How much mass must leave the moon and come to earth before it has become significant?
I am making a guess here but I would suspect it would be in the region of ~0.1% of its mass. which is 7 x 10^19 kg
How long would it take to mine 10 Quintillion KG of moon mass and transfer it back to earth?

One of the largest mines, the Bingham mind excavated 410,000,000kg in a year
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bingham_Canyon_Mine#Production

10 Quintillion kg is 10,000,000,000,000,000,000 kg

So if that mining operation was on the moon it would still take
10 000 000 000 000 000 000 / 410 000 000 = 2.43902439 × 10(to the power of 10) years.

Tabnabs

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Start removing weight and mass on such a scale and the gravitational interaction would be affected which would have possibly fatal consequences for us in terms of tides and seasons.

I'll leave the maths to the scientists on here who are putting out some impressive figures. But just to concentrate on this for a minute; The seasons are caused by the tilt of the Earth's rotational axis away or toward the sun as it travels through its year-long path around the sun. So the moon has no bearing on that.

What are the fatal consequences from a lack of tides? The Mediterranean is essentially a tide-less sea (the Baltic is another one). We hear of no non-tidal related fatalities there, right? So even if the moon wandered off into deep space tomorrow, we would adjust to a tideless planet with relatively low levels of disturbance.

obriendj

RebelButtMunch wrote: »

One of the largest mines, the Bingham mind excavated 410,000,000kg in a year
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bingham_Canyon_Mine#Production

10 Quintillion kg is 10,000,000,000,000,000,000 kg

So if that mining operation was on the moon it would still take
10 000 000 000 000 000 000 / 410 000 000 = 2.43902439 × 10(to the power of 10) years.

I only guessed at 0.1% so hope its not taken as fact.
But i think its a reasonable guess.

Anyway I think it would be easily solved if we than transferred materials (most likely waste) from earth back to the moon. Retaining the mass and density of earth. Problem solved in fact 2 problems solved.

Kermit.de.frog

Tabnabs wrote: »

I'll leave the maths to the scientists on here who are putting out some impressive figures. But just to concentrate on this for a minute; The seasons are caused by the tilt of the Earth's rotational axis away or toward the sun as it travels through its year-long path around the sun. So the moon has no bearing on that.

What are the fatal consequences from a lack of tides? The Mediterranean is essentially a tide-less sea (the Baltic is another one). We hear of no non-tidal related fatalities there, right? So even if the moon wandered off into deep space tomorrow, we would adjust to a tideless planet with relatively low levels of disturbance.

Just quickly - I'll come back later.

I just want to point out I was referring to mining on a scale that has been mooted - 10 times the rate at which oil is currently extracted from the earth. The enormity of such an extraction rate would be really something.

It's a moot point about tides but the moon's gravitational pull on the earth directly effects the tilt of the earth's axis and thus has a regulating effect on the climate - an extra force to the ecliptic plane if you like.

I do think some kind of weight transfer would be desirable regardless of the scale of mining though.

nokia69

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Just quickly - I'll come back later.

I just want to point out I was referring to mining on a scale that has been mooted - 10 times the rate at which oil is currently extracted from the earth. The enormity of such an extraction rate would be really something.

It's a moot point about tides but the moon's gravitational pull on the earth directly effects the tilt of the earth's axis and thus has a regulating effect on the climate - an extra force to the ecliptic plane if you like.

I do think some kind of weight transfer would be desirable regardless of the scale of mining though.

thats not how mining works

if I buy an OZ of gold I don't also get the tons of ore that was dug up to produce the gold, the ore will stay close to the mine

and it would be the same if people were exporting gold from the moon, which in any case will never happen

expectationlost

thought your headline was refferring to the possibility of mining the moon interferring which the light the earth gets from being reflected off the moons surface

Mickeroo

Tabnabs wrote: »

I'll leave the maths to the scientists on here who are putting out some impressive figures. But just to concentrate on this for a minute; The seasons are caused by the tilt of the Earth's rotational axis away or toward the sun as it travels through its year-long path around the sun. So the moon has no bearing on that.

What are the fatal consequences from a lack of tides? The Mediterranean is essentially a tide-less sea (the Baltic is another one). We hear of no non-tidal related fatalities there, right? So even if the moon wandered off into deep space tomorrow, we would adjust to a tideless planet with relatively low levels of disturbance.

I think the moon has a stabilising effect on the earth's axis which could be pretty catastrophic if we lose it and cause all sorts of turmoil with the climate and seasons, I don't know the ins and outs but that's my basic understanding (maybe folks in the know can clarify?). If the moon wandered off the implications are a lot worse than just having no tides though from what I've read.

obriendj

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Just quickly - I'll come back later.

I just want to point out I was referring to mining on a scale that has been mooted - 10 times the rate at which oil is currently extracted from the earth. The enormity of such an extraction rate would be really something.

I do think some kind of weight transfer would be desirable regardless of the scale of mining though.

Ok I see your point but lets look at some figures.
they say that the extraction rate will be 10 times the rate at which oil is extracted today.

The rate of oil extracted today is 32 billion barrels per year.
The weight or mass of a barrel depends on its content of course but at its most dense a barrel of oil weights 140 kg

So the weight of the annual extraction from the earth is 140kg * (32 billion) = 4.48 * 10 ^ 12 kg

Which would imply there will around 5 x 10 ^ 13 Kgs extracted from the moon per annum.

so as we all agreed before (sic) .1% of the moon might have an effect on the tides etc.

10 * 10 ^ 18 divided by the annual extraction is 200,00 years.

I think we will be ok.

irishgeo

Mickeroo wrote: »

I think the moon has a stabilising effect on the earth's axis which could be pretty catastrophic if we lose it and cause all sorts of turmoil with the climate and seasons, I don't know the ins and outs but that's my basic understanding (maybe folks in the know can clarify?). If the moon wandered off the implications are a lot worse than just having no tides though from what I've read.

Yep the moon keeps the earth wobble fairly steady , if the moon buggers off we would still have tides but they would follow the sun and therefore high tide everywhere would be noon.

The tilt of the earth is linked to the seasons , if the moon buggered off the wobble could get out of hand . its currently a 20 degree tilt but could vary to 0 which would mean the end of seasons or a 85 degree tilt which is nearly sideways, you can imagine the fun that would cause.

Anyway if it did disappear tomorrow the wobble changing the tilt is not going to worry us in our lifetime.

ps200306

The stabilising effect is caused by the pull of the moon (which doesn't quite orbit in the plane of the earth's equator) on the earth's equatorial bulge. That causes the slow gyroscopic precession of the equinoxes, but prevents the poles from wandering much more erratically which would definitely screw up our seasons.

Without the moon, the solar tides would have much smaller range than the lunar ones. The tidal interstices would shrink, and vast ecosystems would be altered and/or destroyed. The tidal interstices may have provided the necessary buffer zone for life to have evolved from sea to land in the first place.

_Tombstone_

If you can mine it it's yours.

http://arstechnica.com/science/2015/11/democrats-and-republicans-agree-if-you-can-mine-it-in-space-its-yours/

Capt'n Midnight

_Tombstone_ wrote: »

If you can mine it it's yours.

http://arstechnica.com/science/2015/11/democrats-and-republicans-agree-if-you-can-mine-it-in-space-its-yours/

So the other 95% of the Human race don't count ?

It's Manifest Destiny and the Guano act all over again.

Mankyspuds

Our Alien overlords will never allow it.

moonlighting

so ill never get any moon pie.

_Tombstone_

_Tombstone_ wrote: »

If you can mine it it's yours.

http://arstechnica.com/science/2015/11/democrats-and-republicans-agree-if-you-can-mine-it-in-space-its-yours/

And it's just got a hell of a lot easier, this little fella,



along with a recently discovered material - europium-doped strontium iodide (SrI2):eek: combined make this prototype CubeSat gamma-ray spectrometer built from off-the-shelf components that weighs only one pound and consumes about three watts of electricity yet can do the job of a full lab system that weighs 200 pounds and fills ten cubic feet of space. And is perfect for detecting veins of gold, platinum, rare earths and other valuable material hidden within the asteroids, moons and other airless objects floating around the solar system.

http://news.vanderbilt.edu/2015/11/new-detector-perfect-for-asteroid-mining/

ps200306

_Tombstone_ wrote: »

...europium-doped strontium iodide (SrI2):eek:

Did you know Strontium is the only element whose name is derived from Gaelic? The "nose of the fairy mound" -- Srón an tSídhe -- gives its name to the village of Strontian in Lochaber, Scotland, where Strontium was first found in the lead ore mined there. Not many people (without a Wikipedia obsession) know that. :pac::D

Second Toughest in_the Freshers

Mining on the moon
Lets me play among the stars

_Tombstone_

Who owns space? US asteroid-mining act is dangerous and potentially illegal

An event of cosmic proportions occurred on 18 November when the US congress passed the Space Act of 2015 into law. The legislation will give US space firms the rights to own and sell natural resources they mine from bodies in space, including asteroids. Although the act, passed with bipartisan support, still requires President Obama’s signature, it is already the most significant salvo that has been fired in the ideological battle over ownership of the cosmos. It goes against a number of treaties and international customary law which already apply to the entire Universe.

The new law is nothing but a classic rendition of the "he who dares wins" philosophy of the wild west. The act will also allow the private sector to make space innovations without regulatory oversight during an eight-year period and protect spaceflight participants from financial ruin. Surely, this will see private firms begin to incorporate the mining of asteroids into their investment plans.

Supporters argue that the US Space Act is a bold statement that finally sets private spaceflight free from the heavy regulation of the US government. The misdiagnosis begins here. Space exploration is a universal activity and therefore requires international regulation.

Capt'n Midnight

_Tombstone_ wrote: »

Who owns space?

It's the guano act all over again.

Allowing US citizens to claim territory outside the US effectively means the US is claiming that territory because guess who will have to defend their citizens ? And guess who already implements their laws "allowing" then to persecute people world wide that breaks their laws ?

They should re-visit that decision whereby a local clerk allowed some muppet in California to claim ownership of the moon and all the subsequent fall out.

Outside of the US staking your claim to territory by planting a flag on it has no legal meaning. Inside the US you don't even need to plant a flag, wtf ???



Simple solution would be for the US to demand b back payment of property tax or relinquish the rights. One way evaluate the property tax would be to say that NASA spent $100Bn in today's money , and everywhere else is more costly to get to, to acquire 380.96Kg of moon rock, and the moon weighs 7.34767309 × 10^22 kilograms

LordSutch

Whats the point of mining on the moon (if its hollow)?

...listen from 3 mins onwards >>> https://youtu.be/8RMNGToGAEg