Socialist Party's policies

Labarbapostiza

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Permabear let me explain the world to you. The world is full of makers and also takers. The makers make everything; all the goods and services, everything you can enjoy. A society where the ratio of takers to makers is excessively out of kilter, or where the takers are way too greedy for their own good, let alone that of the society as whole; that society is doomed. Or at least something has to give at some point.


Maybe, it's not really fair to call children and old people takers, as it's not all that fair to call all young adults makers; many are not; do the guys on Wall Street ever actually make anything? They have their spurious excuses, that they allocate capital efficiently, but really only for their own benefit. "Efficient" means screwing the young widget makers.

But, where there are too many children, their cost is a burden on the young makers. This leads to poverty and uncertainty in the society, which leads to a perverse investment strategy; they have more children as a means to provide a pension, the problem is, everyone else has the same idea. You get an explosion in children, eating everyone out of house and home, and being too young to reciprocate production. Afghanistan, Yemen, other problematic places.

The inverse is when there are too many old people. And often the old will use an unfair advantage to excessively drain the young makers. Family formation becomes more expensive, leading to the creation of less young makers, leading to a death spiral. Japan is ahead of the game on western countries but western countries are getting there. They don't have the poverty of Afghanistan, but young people are far worse off. The young makers in London, are paying as much as three quarters of their income in rent to the old takers.

The only model challenged by demographic shifts is the state-enforced taxation of the young to provide benefits to the retired.

Yes, which is why the state connives with the banking system, to artificially raise the value of the takers assets, and make it easier for the takers to accumulate assets they can use to extract wealth from the makers. Think buy to let landlords. When the young complain that their rents are back breaking, and they can't afford to buy houses, the government wrings their hands and says they're doing all they can't to help them, but it's the market and forinners, or whatever else. At the same time they tell the old takers, they're doing everything they can to ensure property prices and rents outstrip wage inflation....

In Ireland, the bailout the property market to the benefit of the takers.

As the number of younger workers declines and the numbers of elderly increase, this system becomes unsustainable. But that should not be confused with "capitalism."

Why should it not be confused with "capitalism"? Are you afraid what might happen if all of a sudden, people became unconfused; especially if they were young and strong, like the Syrian refugees Trump goes on about.

It is capitalism. Or Takerism.

It is unsustainable. If all the young makers took off up to the hills to create their own perfect Ayn Randian society, where might you be?....What if Atlas shrugged?

Niall Keane

blackwhite wrote: »

When do the re-education centres open?

Freedom of thought will be outlawed, "the party" will tell you what you want and need.

Is it facism or socialism you are trying to advocate here?

has it ever crossed your mind, that maybe it is you who are brainwashed by consumer society, and what you experience is a grand delusion, an illusion of free will? why else would you knowingly wipe out species and destroy our planet, the one our children will inherit, for impractical and immoral choices like renewing the car every couple of years? Why is the idea of "starter-home" even entertained? a sub-standard equity-growing box not fit to raise children, and so ensure twice the envirnomental damage is carried out to house everyone?
people will argue that they have no choice, but this is nonsense, we just have difficult choices to make due to an unrelenting neoliberal system and how it is designed to manage the slaves. Escape! (and no, that doesnt mean drop out and grow weed)

If you genuninly cannot feel free without raping the planet, well perhaps there is something wrong? Remember freedom extends only as far as not harming others... otherwise logically, not being free to rape and murder would be "oppression". a sane person hardly thinks so? so extend the logic.... get over your cognative dissonance!

blackwhite

Niall Keane wrote: »

has it ever crossed your mind, that maybe it is you who are brainwashed by consumer society, and what you experience is a grand delusion, an illusion of free will? why else would you knowingly wipe out species and destroy our planet, the one our children will inherit, for impractical and immoral choices like renewing the car every couple of years? Why is the idea of "starter-home" even entertained? a sub-standard equity-growing box not fit to raise children, and so ensure twice the envirnomental damage is carried out to house everyone?
people will argue that they have no choice, but this is nonsense, we just have difficult choices to make due to an unrelenting neoliberal system and how it is designed to manage the slaves. Escape! (and no, that doesnt mean drop out and grow weed)

If you genuninly cannot feel free without raping the planet, well perhaps there is something wrong? Remember freedom extends only as far as not harming others... otherwise logically, not being free to rape and murder would be "oppression". a sane person hardly thinks so? so extend the logic.... get over your cognative dissonance!

So no personal choice is allowed. And your response is to just abuse anyone who doesn't know-tow to whatever your ideology says they should think/want.

And then the bullies who try to push socialism wonder why people who actually go out and earn for themselves are so repulsed by what they advocate?

Good loser

Unlike socialism capitalism is not an ideology.

Capitalism takes human nature as it finds it and continually adjusts its products, services and prices as this nature evolves.

Socialism seeks to shoehorn individuals, groups and classes into categories to be 'managed' by those who think they know better (than the next guy) how the world should work. They're always wrong.

Niall Keane

blackwhite wrote: »

So no personal choice is allowed. And your response is to just abuse anyone who doesn't know-tow to whatever your ideology says they should think/want.

And then the bullies who try to push socialism wonder why people who actually go out and earn for themselves are so repulsed by what they advocate?

oh the cliches abound.... all socialists are dole scroungers right?
the right to destroy the planet is essential to personal freedom?
the facts are there.... its beyond question that humans are destroying our planet, we know that much of that destruction is caused by climate change, and we know who the main culpruts are.... but "the polluter pays" right? introduce watercharges and have the poor subsidise corporate and agricultural mal-practice (they cause nearly 80%)
deny, deny. deny..... sure the world was created in 6 days right?

(out of interest... I am a self-employed architect who supports a family with 3 children. I have no employees / wage slaves, I along with a group of other architects cooperate in a horrizontal structure when needs demand. Democratic design decisions are then taken. From project management to specification, the true reduction of envirnomental damage is a priority. I dont engage in seeking PPP projects or other wasteful and damagingly inefficient methods. it costs me the easy path.... My studio is my own, a converted farm-building, this of course reduces overheads aswell as petrol consumption..... of course the greatest attention was given to sustainabiity in its design. ... I could have been lazy... I could have value-engineered away the cost of such ideals for my business, adopted a straight capitalist model.... hired some jobbridge slaves... not have to share profits..... etc. etc..... yet this way ironically Im ale to offer fair fee proposals, at about 1/6 - 1/3 the market standard (sustainable practice when properly considered actually cuts down on production costs) ... anyway... you get the idea.... another world is possible!)

Waestrel

(out of interest... I am a self-employed architect who supports a family with 3 children. I have no employees / wage slaves, I along with a group of other architects cooperate in a horrizontal structure when needs demand. Democratic design decisions are then taken. From project management to specification, the true reduction of envirnomental damage is a priority. I dont engage in seeking PPP projects or other wasteful and damagingly inefficient methods. it costs me the easy path.... My studio is my own, a converted farm-building, this of course reduces overheads aswell as petrol consumption..... of course the greatest attention was given to sustainabiity in its design. ... I could have been lazy... I could have value-engineered away the cost of such ideals for my business, adopted a straight capitalist model.... hired some jobbridge slaves... not have to share profits..... etc. etc..... yet this way ironically Im ale to offer fair fee proposals, at about 1/6 - 1/3 the market standard (sustainable practice when properly considered actually cuts down on production costs) ... anyway... you get the idea.... another world is possible!)

Congrats, and you needed no government to do it. You did
it
all
by
yourself

Labarbapostiza

Good loser wrote: »

Unlike socialism capitalism is not an ideology.

Capitalism takes human nature as it finds it and continually adjusts its products, services and prices as this nature evolves.

And your peculiar theory about "human nature" is based in rock solid scientific fact.........not a self serving ideology. (Permataker's sermons for instance....where even acts of altruism are in fact acts of selfishness, though the actor is operating under a false consciousness.)

Socialism seeks to shoehorn individuals, groups and classes into categories to be 'managed' by those who think they know better (than the next guy) how the world should work. They're always wrong.

Yeah, yeah, yeah......and under capitalism no one bosses anyone around...

blackwhite

Niall Keane wrote: »

oh the cliches abound.... all socialists are dole scroungers right?
the right to destroy the planet is essential to personal freedom?
the facts are there.... its beyond question that humans are destroying our planet, we know that much of that destruction is caused by climate change, and we know who the main culpruts are.... but "the polluter pays" right? introduce watercharges and have the poor subsidise corporate and agricultural mal-practice (they cause nearly 80%)
deny, deny. deny..... sure the world was created in 6 days right?

(out of interest... I am a self-employed architect who supports a family with 3 children. I have no employees / wage slaves, I along with a group of other architects cooperate in a horrizontal structure when needs demand. Democratic design decisions are then taken. From project management to specification, the true reduction of envirnomental damage is a priority. I dont engage in seeking PPP projects or other wasteful and damagingly inefficient methods. it costs me the easy path.... My studio is my own, a converted farm-building, this of course reduces overheads aswell as petrol consumption..... of course the greatest attention was given to sustainabiity in its design. ... I could have been lazy... I could have value-engineered away the cost of such ideals for my business, adopted a straight capitalist model.... hired some jobbridge slaves... not have to share profits..... etc. etc..... yet this way ironically Im ale to offer fair fee proposals, at about 1/6 - 1/3 the market standard (sustainable practice when properly considered actually cuts down on production costs) ... anyway... you get the idea.... another world is possible!)

So you had the freedom to go and live the way YOU choose.

But yet you continue to advocate a system that would deny everyone else the same freedom.

Hypocrite much?

Good loser

Labarbapostiza wrote: »

And your peculiar theory about "human nature" is based in rock solid scientific fact.........not a self serving ideology. (Permataker's sermons for instance....where even acts of altruism are in fact acts of selfishness, though the actor is operating under a false consciousness.)

I expressed no theory (peculiar or otherwise) about human nature.

Everybody's different. Take people as they are - not as they would be.

Niall Keane

blackwhite wrote: »

So you had the freedom to go and live the way YOU choose.

But yet you continue to advocate a system that would deny everyone else the same freedom.

Hypocrite much?

I made it quite clear that sane people usually expect freedom to extend as far as not harming others... Did the cognative dissonance prevent you receiving that important point? ... Anyway... This Freedom to destroy the earth cried about by the "because I'm worth it" brigade got me thinking of the following poem... The poet sums it all up precisely...
As they say if you understand no explanation will be necessary, of not, none will be possible....

WHEN I GROW UP, BY JESSAMINE O CONNOR
Posted on March 30, 2016 by Bogman's Cannon


When I grow up I want to be nobody.
I want to say all the same things as the people around me.
I want to believe whatever everyone else believes,
and be happy enough with the way things are,
however they are.

When I grow up I want to be fashionable.
I want to throw away my clothes every season
and wear what’s new.
I don’t want to think about who makes the clothes, or how young, or exhausted,
or mistreated they are, I want to be cool.

I want to upgrade my phone just when I get used to it,
want to drive a new car, or at least have a new number plate.
I do not want to look like some weirdo in an old banger, wringing her hands
about aluminium mines and the oil industry,
I want to just drive.

When I grow up I will not age.
I want to own shelves and shelves of cosmetics, all tried and tested on rabbits
and pigs, just so I’m sure it will work on me.
I’ll hide behind a skin-toned wall and paint on the mask, whatever way’s the way at the time,
so no one would know I was somebody different, I want to be them.

When I grow up I want a house you could eat your dinner off.
The kind you walk straight out of and no one would know you’d ever lived there.
I don’t want any books on the walls, blocking my annual catalogue paint-job,
and I’ll be so busy tidying I won’t notice
the day passing, or the years.

When I grow up I want to be married to someone presentable.
I want to wear a diamond ring, and be proud of those children
who waded in mud twelve hours a day mining,
and dug with huge shovels, in blood and gunshots,
just to make my ring possible.

When I grow up I want to go to McDonalds, or KFC, or wherever.
I don’t want to be a bleeding heart
animal lover
tree-hugging nutter.
I want to eat ****.

When I grow up I want to sit on the fence.
I’ll never argue or make a scene,
I won’t be protesting warplanes or boycotting Israel, that stuff is for loonies
who still think little children are worth more than money!
I won’t complain.

When I grow up I won’t think about things too much.
I will look blank if anyone tries making me care.
I will not be drawn
into some emotional reaction over the Earth,
I will be detached.

When I grow up I want to understand
why the economy is more important than water,
why fracking companies can tell all those lies.
But I want to believe them,
and when I grow up they will be right.

I want to live a long life with no scandals.
I want people to say over my grave that I was decent,
never made any trouble or a show of myself, that I kept things nice.
I want them to walk away talking about something else already.
I want to fade from memory, to have made no waves.

I want to be nobody. Nobody special.

Seth Brundle

Niall Keane wrote: »

As they say if you understand no explanation will be necessary, of not, none will be possible....

Sorry but that's a cop out. Quoting some poem that most people won't read is not a response to the point made.

How will socialism ensure that the demands in terms of food, housing, transport and employment of the population are met?
You claim that it's capitalism alone that is causing our resources to be stripped but are not showing how this will be stopped never mind reversed under a socialist government.
Do we need population controls?
What about jobs? Will more people be given employment in environmental areas?
In terms of the areas that place greater demands on the natural resources within this country, how will you replace these?
In terms of existing requirements for resources (fuels, water, timber, stone & concrete, etc.), how will you manage these?
In terms of foreign investment companies operating here, what will socialist government do about these companies?

Niall Keane

kbannon wrote: »

Sorry but that's a cop out. Quoting some poem that most people won't read is not a response to the point made.

How will socialism ensure that the demands in terms of food, housing, transport and employment of the population are met?
You claim that it's capitalism alone that is causing our resources to be stripped but are not showing how this will be stopped never mind reversed under a socialist government.
Do we need population controls?
What about jobs? Will more people be given employment in environmental areas?
In terms of the areas that place greater demands on the natural resources within this country, how will you replace these?
In terms of existing requirements for resources (fuels, water, timber, stone & concrete, etc.), how will you manage these?
In terms of foreign investment companies operating here, what will socialist government do about these companies?

lets make this really really simple... and condense what I've said before more thoroughly.... abandon the idea of growth for growth's sake. ok? lets not feed the shareholders, lets not aim at mega surplus, lets not rape the earth for projected profits?
lets under power from below EVOLVE a system where needs take precedent and not run away profit chasing.
The poem points out much unnecessary and "programmed" behaviors people adopt under capitalism and the desire to fit in. And of course these consumer culture antics are nurtured through media etc. by the very killers of our world to sustain their modus operandi...
Do you think blood-diamonds are ok? Do you think child labour is ok? Do you think habitat destruction is ok? Do yo think torturing animals to test cosmetics is ok? Do yo think totally unnecessary consumption is ok, like renewing the smart phone or car every 18 months?......... Do you think?

Anarchist / Syndicalist communities / organizations do not pursue profits for shareholders, this is the province of capitalist states, and that includes the pseudo-communist states who operate for profits and to accumulate "capital"! If you slap an organic sticker across a McDonalds restaurant would that make their products organic? Same for China etc... The old rule of business is 1/3 labour, 1/3, expenses and 1/3 profits, I accede that many modern businesses operate on such vast scales that lower rates of profits suffice... still cut out the wastage of profit motive and we are getting somewhere... has any capitalist green-washing conferences come anywhere near a 33% cut in emissions?

Even in the local scale...
150 years ago 1,000,000 people lived in Galway and Mayo, today a tenth of that, and many struggle to survive.... same resources... but unavoidable debt and rent-seeking has demanded far more of them.... The fields lie fallow, the "profit-margins", the necessary "profit margins" aren't there... see there's more than enough for us all, scarcity is a fabrication of capitalism, manufactured by imposing upon people crushing debts and expenses. Wage-slaves... how many now have less than €100 disposable income a month?
Fields lie fallow, people chained to desks... doing jobs one would think were made up just to have jobs... inspectors of inspector tools of inspectors... etc.. more waste....
And I guess that's the real issue... the self-importance of the useless, copied from the self-importance of the rent-seekers who own the capital. Imitating them, buying that momentary experience of their world, and being the house-slave becomes the "respectable "aim. Its why the unemployed are attacked... subconsciously many realize what they are doing every day .. that lip-service to life is a total fallacy and a wasteful one at that, a total waste of time, that contributes nothing to humanity bar buttressing the delusion of need for unnecessary waste!

marienbad

Niall Keane wrote: »

lets make this really really simple... and condense what I've said before more thoroughly.... abandon the idea of growth for growth's sake. ok? lets not feed the shareholders, lets not aim at mega surplus, lets not rape the earth for projected profits?
lets under power from below EVOLVE a system where needs take precedent and not run away profit chasing.
The poem points out much unnecessary and "programmed" behaviors people adopt under capitalism and the desire to fit in. And of course these consumer culture antics are nurtured through media etc. by the very killers of our world to sustain their modus operandi...
Do you think blood-diamonds are ok? Do you think child labour is ok? Do you think habitat destruction is ok? Do yo think torturing animals to test cosmetics is ok? Do yo think totally unnecessary consumption is ok, like renewing the smart phone or car every 18 months?......... Do you think?

Anarchist / Syndicalist communities / organizations do not pursue profits for shareholders, this is the province of capitalist states, and that includes the pseudo-communist states who operate for profits and to accumulate "capital"! If you slap an organic sticker across a McDonalds restaurant would that make their products organic? Same for China etc... The old rule of business is 1/3 labour, 1/3, expenses and 1/3 profits, I accede that many modern businesses operate on such vast scales that lower rates of profits suffice... still cut out the wastage of profit motive and we are getting somewhere... has any capitalist green-washing conferences come anywhere near a 33% cut in emissions?

Even in the local scale...
150 years ago 1,000,000 people lived in Galway and Mayo, today a tenth of that, and many struggle to survive.... same resources... but unavoidable debt and rent-seeking has demanded far more of them.... The fields lie fallow, the "profit-margins", the necessary "profit margins" aren't there... see there's more than enough for us all, scarcity is a fabrication of capitalism, manufactured by imposing upon people crushing debts and expenses. Wage-slaves... how many now have less than €100 disposable income a month?
Fields lie fallow, people chained to desks... doing jobs one would think were made up just to have jobs... inspectors of inspector tools of inspectors... etc.. more waste....
And I guess that's the real issue... the self-importance of the useless, copied from the self-importance of the rent-seekers who own the capital. Imitating them, buying that momentary experience of their world, and being the house-slave becomes the "respectable "aim. Its why the unemployed are attacked... subconsciously many realize what they are doing every day .. that lip-service to life is a total fallacy and a wasteful one at that, a total waste of time, that contributes nothing to humanity bar buttressing the delusion of need for unnecessary waste!

This is just wishful thinking and of particularly meaningless variety , a bit like your poem - to paraphrase the great Oscar not all sincere poetry is bad poetry but all bad poetry is invariably sincere poetry.

Might I ask how did you get to be architect ? I assume you did not spring from the womb fully qualified ?

Seth Brundle

Niall Keane wrote: »

lets make this really really simple...

Blah blah blah

So you're not going to answer my questions but simply post some waffle?
You're not really selling your ideas very well!

Waestrel

... abandon the idea of growth for growth's sake.

I am not really sure what this means, after all economic growth is what gives us better standrads of living and the technologies to better preserve the environment , such as the transition to a green energy economy. Should growth be halted in the green sector of the economy? Or in cloud computing? Or medical devices? Who will decide these matters?

Can you give concrete examples, because at this point I am unable to parse your luddite ramblings.

Niall Keane

Waestrel wrote: »

I am not really sure what this means, after all economic growth is what gives us better standrads of living and the technologies to better preserve the environment , such as the transition to a green energy economy. Should growth be halted in the green sector of the economy? Or in cloud computing? Or medical devices? Who will decide these matters?

Can you give concrete examples, because at this point I am unable to parse your luddite ramblings.

Who's being the Luddite?
Do you expect a programme for government costed and blessed by the department of finance???

Please... Try and get past the statist mindset..

We have been presented with beautifully bound programmes for government over the years, blessed by fine economists, who copied and pasted "their" ideas from similar policies abroad, policies that have always been undemocratic and serve only a small class of the population....

Either you believe in democracy or not? The people have a right to fail and evolve, and not be dictated to by their "betters" as is the case now.

The self serving will of course refuse such a dangerous concept that might see their lifestyle altered.

Why do you think direct democracy with instant recall won't work?
How do you see neoliberal capitalist societies seriously dealing with climate change and mass extinctions?
Please give "concrete examples"??? ;-)

Niall. Are you a Socialist or as you previously mentioned an Anarchist?

If the former, what are your thoughts on the Socialist Party of Ireland's Policies?

If the latter, perhaps starting a thread on the subject would be in order?

Waestrel

Please... Try and get past the statist mindset..

as some one arguing for free markets, I can hardly be accused of statism

Why do you think direct democracy with instant recall won't work?

I am not sure it wouldnt - in fact i don't believe i claimed it could not. I am generally a supporter of swiss style direct democracy.

How do you see neoliberal capitalist societies seriously dealing with climate change and mass extinctions?

It seems fairly obvious that the massive engines of innovation that capitalist societies create will further reduce our ecological footprint, the private company Tesla and its electric cars is an example of this. The development of skype reducing the need for business flights is another example. I am certainly not a neo liberal, in the form of George Bush or similar, and see big Gov in bed with big business is a recipe for disaster, so you can drop that Strawman.

Can you please tell us how your alternative wil work? Do you believe in a large state that forbids certain types of industry? Or do you advocate for a more social change, where people choose to live more within their means?

I am still not sure what you are proposing, other than "the current system is wrong!" - how will you fix it? and in such a way that does not destroy liberty or the economy?

marienbad

Waestrel wrote: »

It seems fairly obvious that the massive engines of innovation that capitalist societies create will further reduce our ecological footprint

Bezos and Amazon have done more for the planet than all the eco warriors combined .

And I agree with Niall that the only real challenge facing all of us is saving the planet . the question is how best to do that .