Socialist Party's policies

Livefornow

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

yea yea - the Kenny line - we all partied - did we f*ck - we all got screwed by the spivs and the speculators and their political lapdogs and we had absolutely no control over the royal f*ck-job they did on us.

Was it not Brian Lenihan (FF) RIP who said we all partied ?

Dan_Solo

garhjw wrote: »

Couldn't find anything sensible to say?

Somebody's definitely upset at the latest opinion polls. Bye bye golden circle parties!

Dan_Solo

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Couldn't find the Thanks button?
Thanks from: garhjw

LOL. Don't really know what you're doing, do you?

PeadarCo

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

house prices were not driven higher in the initial stages by wages - they were driven higher by massive tax breaks from the government to spivs and speculators - the government was providing property tax breaks to the tune of €4 billion a year and the avarice of the speculators assisted by FF and FG councillors led to a massive increase in property prices

I'd agree with the tax breaks and the county councils and an bord pleanala have to take the blame for some fairly shocking planning that lead to houses being built in the middle of know where. But your simplifying the issues. The fact is you can't buy what you can't afford even with craziest bank lending. If wages didn't increase it would have ended the boom earlier and there would have been gentler landing. I'm not saying wage increases were the sole reason and need to be seen in the context of the other issues you and I have discussed.

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

yea yea - the Kenny line - we all partied - did we f*ck - we all got screwed by the spivs and the speculators and their political lapdogs and we had absolutely no control over the royal f*ck-job they did on us.

Any evidence for your assertions?

The one thing we do know is the once the construction industry went belly up we were left with a major funding gap. Cause by primarily due to the disappearance of property taxes, other transaction taxes and the collapse in emplyment in this sector. It should be pointed out that the majority of the debt ran up since 2007 relates not to the banks but to funding government services. Had only the banks gone bust the situation would have been far more manageable. Permabear has already highlighted what the government did with the property windfall. But you've chosen to ignore it.

It should be pointed out that in the 2002 election Fine Gael ran on a platform of criticizing Fianna Fails spending as being unsustainable. Had those policies been implemented we mightn't have got ourselves into this mess. But given their performance and what voters thought of those policies, they dumped those polices and started advocating the stupid policies that got us into the mess. Which only encouraged Fianna Fail to make even worse decisions. The same applies Labour and Sinn Fein as well. I suppose who can show us policies dating to these periods that would have advocated something different as I assume the socialist party would be to principled to have got involved in auction politics. The only way you can argue your point is to ignore both the 02 and 07 elections.

But to fair if you don't listen and learn from the mistakes between 2002-07 we're going to just repeat them( we might do anyway socialist or not socialists in power). Extreme Socialists particularly have a nasty habit of ignoring the past. Which is surprising given that literally millions have died trying to implement the ideal socialist world. Whether that's Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot. Look at the hardship its causing Venezuela.

garhjw

Dan_Solo wrote: »

LOL. Don't really know what you're doing, do you?

I'll be laughing at your type after the next election. You are living in the wrong century.

Dan_Solo

garhjw wrote: »

I'll be laughing at your type after the next election. You are living in the wrong century.

I know, I always wanted a flying car.
My type? The only thing you know about "my type" is I won't be voting for the golden circle parties. You're as clueless on "my type" as everything else.

Iwasfrozen

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I know, I always wanted a flying car.
My type? The only thing you know about "my type" is I won't be voting for the golden circle parties. You're as clueless on "my type" as everything else.

Assuming golden circle parties are FG, FF and Lab it must be really annoying for you that 54% of people polled intend to give first preference votes in the next general election according to the latest red C poll.

Dan_Solo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Assuming golden circle parties are FG, FF and Lab it must be really annoying for you that 54% of people polled intend to give first preference votes in the next general election according to the latest red C poll.

https://politicalreformireland.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/ipi_longitudinal.png
Nowhere near as much as those trends must annoy you mate.

Godge

garhjw wrote: »

Couldn't find anything sensible to say?

Par for the course around here that most of the posting is nonsensical. Especially from the Shinners.

Dan_Solo

Godge wrote: »

Par for the course around here that most of the posting is nonsensical. Especially from the Shinners.

Most of the posting here is pro-establishment actually. You're saying the people who agree with you are nonsensical.
Getting a little bit confused there Godge?

Iwasfrozen

Dan_Solo wrote: »

https://politicalreformireland.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/ipi_longitudinal.png
Nowhere near as much as those trends must annoy you mate.

Not at all, transfers taken into consideration I don't expect the "establishment" parties will score less than 70% of the seats. Loony left politics just don't appeal to Irish people.

Dan_Solo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Not at all, transfers taken into consideration I don't expect the "establishment" parties will score less than 70% of the seats. Loony left politics just don't appeal to Irish people.

Since they currently have 73% and their support is utterly abysmal and doesn't appear to be close to bottoming out, you're basing your predictions on last night's dreams I'd imagine?
BTW, Paddy Power has them getting a pretty lame 50%, so off for some easy money you, eh?

Iwasfrozen

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Since they currently have 73% and their support is utterly abysmal and doesn't appear to be close to bottoming out, you're basing your predictions on last night's dreams I'd imagine?
BTW, Paddy Power has them getting a pretty lame 50%, so off for some easy money you, eh?

50% of the seats? I'd happily take that bet except I don't gamble.

What you're forgetting is non "establishment" parties score terribly in the old vote transfers that are pivotal in our system.

FreudianSlippers

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Sounds like even the establishment fan club can see the writing on the wall. The fear is palpable and the aggression is a reflexive instinct. It might not be the SWP, but you'll be getting socialist policies soon enough lads. Sorry about that!

We will probably just up sticks and move then. Without us to pay our taxes here the country will be out of money to fund itself in what, 6 months?

Dan_Solo

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

We will probably just up sticks and move then. Without us to pay our taxes here the country will be out of money to fund itself in what, 6 months?

Door, arse, way out, etc. We've heard whining from self-proclaimed high value citizens for years and it still looks like the flat broke who the golden circle parties have screwed over are the ones on the plane out.

garhjw

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Door, arse, way out, etc. We've heard whining from self-proclaimed high value citizens for years and it still looks like the flat broke who the golden circle parties have screwed over are the ones on the plane out.

Snore bore comrade

Dan_Solo

garhjw wrote: »

Snore bore comrade

You're a snore and a bore? Not sure why you'd want to advertise that, but whatever you say Mr Gecko.

Dan_Solo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

50% of the seats? I'd happily take that bet except I don't gamble.

Yes, 50% of seats.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

What you're forgetting is non "establishment" parties score terribly in the old vote transfers that are pivotal in our system.

Not forgetting that at all, which is where the bookies are getting their 50% of seats from. FG will shortly be last on anybody's list for transfers anyway soon. Might even surpass FF as the biggest support implosion in the history of the state.

Iwasfrozen

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Yes, 50% of seats.
Not forgetting that at all, which is where the bookies are getting their 50% of seats from. FG will shortly be last on anybody's list for transfers anyway soon. Might even surpass FF as the biggest support implosion in the history of the state.

Me thinks comrade Daniel here is in for a disappointing election results day.

Without the IMF breathing down their necks and the green shoots of recovery in the economy FG are going to bribe the electorate with a massive giveaway budget prior to the election while the water charges will be a distant memory in the minds of most people.

You could always move to Cuba, I hear it's nice this time of year. Or North Korea, those traffic control women are pretty sexy comrade.

ArmaniJeanss

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Yes, 50% of seats.
Not forgetting that at all, which is where the bookies are getting their 50% of seats from. FG will shortly be last on anybody's list for transfers anyway soon. Might even surpass FF as the biggest support implosion in the history of the state.

You aren't far off with 50% but PaddyPower midpoints actually has FG+FF+L at about 54% (55% if you include the Chair). Perhaps you are forgetting that the next Dail will only have 160 seats?

http://www.paddypower.com/bet/other-politics/irish-politics?ev_oc_grp_ids=1176658 , then click into party seats.

Dan_Solo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Me thinks comrade Daniel here is in for a disappointing election results day.

Without the IMF breathing down their necks and the green shoots of recovery in the economy FG are going to bribe the electorate with a massive giveaway budget prior to the election while the water charges will be a distant memory in the minds of most people.

Yes Lord Sugar. The public haven't forgotten Fianna Fail and that was years ago now. FG are fooked and no sign of hitting bottom even yet.
The lie n bribe tactics of the golden circle parties are over I'm afraid Denis.
I assume you'll move to Somalia when SF get in to power? No pesky public service or taxes there to bother you.

Iwasfrozen

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Yes Lord Sugar. The public haven't forgotten Fianna Fail and that was years ago now. FG are fooked and no sign of hitting bottom even yet.
The lie n bribe tactics of the golden circle parties are over I'm afraid Denis.
I assume you'll move to Somalia when SF get in to power? No pesky public service or taxes there to bother you.

lol when, loving the optimism comrade but SF likely won't be in power and if they do by some miracle it will be as the junior partner in a coalition. (with FF being the most likely candidate as senior coalition party I would imagine)

Would I leave if socialists or worse SF did actually do the impossible and get into power themselves? Actually I'm not sure.

I work in the financial services industry you see so I'd make more money in London. Still I prefer Ireland and I'd rather pay my taxes to this country but on the other hand I can only be pushed so far until I leave. I imagine most people would feel the same way.

No doubt you're going to respond with "don't let the door hit you on the way out" or some other "hilarious" comment but just think who is going to pay for all your social services when you've forced the hard workers to leave.

Dan_Solo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

lol when, loving the optimism comrade but SF likely won't be in power and if they do by some miracle it will be as the junior partner in a coalition. (with FF being the most likely candidate as senior coalition party I would imagine)

Yeah Gordon, I love the optimism that the golden circlers will get over 70% of seats. Did I say optimism? Delusion would be closer to the mark.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

No doubt you're going to respond with "don't let the door hit you on the way out" or some other "hilarious" comment but just think who is going to pay for all your social services when you've forced the hard workers to leave.

Dunno, who's going to pay yours? I don't claim much myself.
I already did the arse/door thing earlier. You have been reading the thread? More or less "hilarious" than "comrade"... hmm, you're not vintage Pryor yourself are you?

garhjw

Commie, how will communist ireland differ from other communist countries around the world? I presume you will take the same attitude when it comes to things like freedom of speech and human rights and rigging elections.

Dan_Solo

garhjw wrote: »

Commie

Who are you talking to?
You probably don't even know yourself. Just another thing of many, eh.

garhjw

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Who are you talking to?
You probably don't even know yourself. Just another thing of many, eh.

I'm talking to you comrade, now answer the question. Or don't. In a democratic society you have the choice

Dan_Solo

garhjw wrote: »

I'm talking to you comrade, now answer the question. Or don't. In a democratic society you have the choice

Yes comrade yourself. Just as applicable.
Oh, I'm not a communist.
Apologies, that pain in your head is you not knowing the difference between a communist and a socialist. Don't worry, a quick trip to the dictionary will teach you the basics so you can join the discussion with at least a rudimentary knowledge of what those big words people are using hear actually mean.

Iwasfrozen

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Yes comrade yourself. Just as applicable.
Oh, I'm not a communist.
Apologies, that pain in your head is you not knowing the difference between a communist and a socialist. Don't worry, a quick trip to the dictionary will teach you the basics so you can join the discussion with at least a rudimentary knowledge of what those big words people are using hear actually mean.

Would you consider the USSR a socialist or communist country? I ask because they wouldn't have considered themselves a communist country.

Communism was the ideal, socialism was accepted to be the realistic temporary goal. Hence socialist country but communist party.

Dan_Solo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Would you consider the USSR a socialist or communist country? I ask because they wouldn't have considered themselves a communist country.

Hilarious. They were ruled by The Communist Party but you're trying to tell me they didn't think they were communists? 4 rlz?

garhjw

You are a communist Dan

CptMackey

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Hilarious. They were ruled by The Communist Party but you're trying to tell me they didn't think they were communists? 4 rlz?

USSR

Union of Soviet socialist republics.

Socialism is a waste of time. Why should those that work, who fund everything be penalized?

Dan_Solo

garhjw wrote: »

You are a communist Dan

You haven't a clue what I am mate. Your life must be tough constantly making bad guesses due to lack of knowledge.

Dan_Solo

CptMackey wrote: »

USSR

Union of Soviet socialist republics.

Not sure if we're supposed to be impressed you knew what USSR means?
Now, to really amaze everybody what does "Communist Party" mean? "We think we're socialists really"?
GUFFAW.

Black Swan

MOD REMINDER:
Some of these posts are getting a bit too personal. Let's focus on content and not each other.

micosoft

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

As I said previously, guaranteeing BoI and AIB would have been sensible to ensure there wasn't a run; Anglo should have been let drown and a fire sale of its assets to whoever wanted them. I don't have a crystal ball, but I'd say there wouldn't have been a bailout.

Perhaps. But at the time it was clear from the Lehmans example that containing contagion in one bank was next to impossible. Furthermore the EU (and the US Fed would have been in agreement) had made the call that no bank failures would be allowed in order to prevent any contagion. Given many believed that the end of the world was nigh, the fact we still have functioning enconomises and are complaining about lack of growth indicates that that policy was the right one at the time it was taken. To risk bringing down the Irish banking system and possibly that contagion spreading to the rest of the Euro zone was unacceptable compared to the pain inflicted on the Irish Tax payer.

Iwasfrozen

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Hilarious. They were ruled by The Communist Party but you're trying to tell me they didn't think they were communists? 4 rlz?

They were the United Soviet Socialist Republics the word communist didn't appear in any of the state names but it did appear in the name of the ruling communist party.

To understand why you have to understand Marxist/Leninist/Soviet ideology, Communism was the ultimate goal of mankind, to be achieved at some indefinite time in the future when resources would be literally infinite and there would be no need for a state to exist.

Socialism on the other hand was to be an intermediary step between capitalism and communism, the next stage in in the development of human society. Which goes in order of (from the top of my head) tribal communism, slavery, feudalism, capitalism, socialism and communism.

There was a recognition at the time that given their level to technology communism was an impossible task to implement so they instead attempted to implement a socialist society where society would be organized along the lines of "To each according to his contribution". A core tenant of socialism that essentially states a person shall be allocated resources based on their total productivity or contribution to the system. The essential element here for socialists is the elimination of unearned income in the form of rent receivable, interest in any form or profit gained from the labor of others.

That's obviously a shortened version of Marx's very long theorising on the matter but essentially that's why the USSR was a socialist state with a communist party.

Dan_Solo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

They were the United Soviet Socialist Republics the word communist didn't appear in any of the state names but it did appear in the name of the ruling communist party.

Yes, but your claim was that they would refer to themselves as socialists, which is obviously rubbish as they quite clearly called themselves communists, as in, you know, the name of the party they were in?
You also have to ignore the word "Soviet" if you want to make the case they were just socialists. Why would you do that?

Iwasfrozen

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Yes, but your claim was that they would refer to themselves as socialists, which is obviously rubbish as they quite clearly called themselves communists, as in, you know, the name of the party they were in?

My original question to you Dan was do you consider the USSR a communist country? A question you ignored though obviously from what I've written above I hope you can see they would have never considered themselves a communist country.

In accordance with Soviet ideology they were implementing a socialist society so in that sense they socialists.

But to say a person is socialist and not communist, or communist and not socialist doesn't really make sense since both ideologies are intrinsic to Marxist thought.

I would say a person cannot be one without the other since neither ideology is complete without the other. Without communism what is the end goal of socialism, what is the justification for handing the state so much power.

Without socialism how does a society bridge the gap between capitalism and utopia?

Essentially it makes more sense to call anyone who subscribes to this theory a Marxist. Would you be a Marxist Dan?

You also have to ignore the word "Soviet" if you want to make the case they were just socialists. Why would you do that?

A soviet was just a council. There was a Limerick soviet actually, interesting story.

garhjw

Listening to a rerun of George hooks interview with Paul Murphy. My opinion of him is even lower now than it was before.

He doesn't understand the modern world. Wants to live in a Trotsky Russia. Al he says is won't pay this or won't pay that. Millionaires tax blah blah blah. What a loser.

Still justifying holding women hostage

FreudianSlippers

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Door, arse, way out, etc. We've heard whining from self-proclaimed high value citizens for years and it still looks like the flat broke who the golden circle parties have screwed over are the ones on the plane out.

I'm just wondering how you plan to fund the country with no tax money coming in and billions going to artificially inflate the living standards of the working class?

Dan_Solo

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I'm just wondering how you plan to fund the country with no tax money coming in and billions going to artificially inflate the living standards of the working class?

Why, are people going to stop paying tax? Where did you invent that idea?

FreudianSlippers

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Why, are people going to stop paying tax? Where did you invent that idea?

You said all the higher-earning taxpayers could leave... something about a door and arse IIRC. Just wondering how that will impact the economy in this socialist paradise.

Dan_Solo

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

You said all the higher-earning taxpayers could leave... something about a door and arse IIRC. Just wondering how that will impact the economy in this socialist paradise.

I said they could leave if they want, sure. I think that's a given?
Will they leave? Nope. They've been threatening this through thick and thin for decades. It's still the poorest who leave in far greater numbers.

Dan_Solo

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I said they could leave if they want, sure. I think that's a given?
Will they leave? Nope. They've been threatening this through thick and thin for decades. It's still the poorest who leave in far greater numbers.

Is this true?

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/brain-drain-threatens-to-stall-recovery-283724.html

Latest figures from the Central Statistics Office show that just 12,300, or one in six, of the 81,900 people who left the country in the 12 months to April this year was unemployed.

The rest were split mainly between the 28,900 who quit jobs to make a new start abroad and the 29,000 who were students immediately prior to their departure, suggesting they had given up on finding work here before they had even begun.

The number of new graduates leaving was higher than at any time in the previous six years, and almost half (47%) of everyone who left had a third-level education.

http://www.thejournal.ie/eamon-gilmore-emigration-brain-drain-1107172-Sep2013/

Transport Minister Leo Varadkar suggested in an interview published in the Irish Independent this morning that third-level educated workers are leaving Ireland for countries with “higher pay and lower taxes”.
Quoted on Newstalk, Varadkar said people on “pretty modest incomes” of around €35,000 hit the highest rate of tax – 52 per cent – which is “not normal in most countries”.

Godge

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I said they could leave if they want, sure. I think that's a given?
Will they leave? Nope. They've been threatening this through thick and thin for decades. It's still the poorest who leave in far greater numbers.

So those on social welfare leave for greater rates of social welfare? Where is this paradise of social welfare?

Chips Lovell

Was just about to post something similar. Most analysis shows that its actually better educated people with decent career prospects who leave.

FreudianSlippers

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I said they could leave if they want, sure. I think that's a given?
Will they leave? Nope. They've been threatening this through thick and thin for decades. It's still the poorest who leave in far greater numbers.

Nobody has yet implemented the level of socialist redistribution suggested. I think you'd find a vast number of people moving or "moving" if a heavy socialist system was introduced.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Dan_Solo

Godge wrote: »

So those on social welfare leave for greater rates of social welfare?

Nobody said that. Inventing stuff again.