Wonder Woman (2017)

pixelburp

Tony EH wrote: »

If Wonder Woman fucked up the WWI nazis in spectacular fashion, how come nobody knew about it in BvS? Or MoS for that matter. How can such a bizarre event be completely forgotten?

Surely such a monumental event would have been known about?

Ultimately she wasn't that involved with actual event of ww1, bar one scene in No Mans Land. Her contribution would have been minimal in the grand scheme of the war...

helimachoptor

meh, thought it was alright, seems odd the hidden island is actually just hidden, in all the time no one else has crossed the barrier?

The no mans land was pretty ****, and very basic, didnt get any real threat from it



But my god, Gadot is stunningly beautiful

Mitch Connor

helimachoptor wrote: »

meh, thought it was alright, seems odd the hidden island is actually just hidden, in all the time no one else has crossed the barrier?

The no mans land was pretty ****, and very basic, didnt get any real threat from it



But my god, Gadot is stunningly beautiful

My understanding/reading of it in the movie is that it is Wonder Woman unleashing her power in the sparring/training that opens them up to being found. Ie. I think if she hadn't power blocked at that stage then Chris Pine/Nazi blokes can't get through to them and life continues as it would have been.

The reaction of her mother as soon as that power block thing happens is what points me in that direction, mainly.

Mitch Connor

pixelburp wrote: »

Ultimately she wasn't that involved with actual event of ww1, bar one scene in No Mans Land. Her contribution would have been minimal in the grand scheme of the war...

Also, not like there were people recording her actions really while she was there - her actions would likely have faded to myth, ignored as fanciful story telling for the most part.

Tony EH

A woman dressed in that garb running across no man's land in the great war would have been in every national newspaper of the day and for the next century afterward too.

Something as bizarre as that wouldn't have escaped the worlds attention.

Mickeroo

It only happened once at a minor town nobody cared about, lasted roughly ten minutes and

most of the witnesses died the following day

.

Nervous Wreck

Mickeroo wrote: »

It only happened once at a minor town nobody cared about, lasted roughly ten minutes and

most of the witnesses died the following day

.

Plus, sasquatch.

Tony EH

Mickeroo wrote: »

It only happened once at a minor town nobody cared about, lasted roughly ten minutes and

most of the witnesses died the following day

.

Oh.

So that's the scene that's supposed to knock our socks off?

Mitch Connor

Tony EH wrote: »

Oh.

So that's the scene that's supposed to knock our socks off?

Yeah - its a pretty incredible scene.

She is standing and striding forward where all others thoguht it futile, she is fighting to end the suffering of the people, which others thought futile. And she does it like a complete badass.

The fact it happens in a remote part of the war, on a small scale, and the eventual outcome, doesn't matter.

El Duda

Wonder Woman - 7.5/10

Gal Gadot is almost distractingly perfect. She is some kind of other worldly goddess, both in the film and in real life.

This just goes to show that DC does have decent film or two in them. There are some awesome action set pieces that made me catch a few feels. This is better than a lot of Marvel films tbf.

There’s a massive missed opportunity to give the film a good, relatable message. It instead lets itself down by descending into a horribly generic, CGI-fest of a third act.

PhiloCypher

Tony EH wrote: »

Oh.

So that's the scene that's supposed to knock our socks off?

Taking uninformed potshots at a film you haven't even watched is beneath you Tony. You can usually be counted on for some sound analysis whether it's praising a film or criticizing it. You should just watch the film instead of taking comment's out of context and coming to the wrong conclusions.

Tony EH

It's not really a potshot PC. I just had it in my head that there was a better NML scene involved. From what I'd heard it was...um "bigger"? But now it's in a small town that nobody gives a toss about. More to do with my own confusion than with having a go.

C'est la Vie.

In any case, I've been open on the thread about my meh about the character and the fact that its war setting (either 1 or 2) will probably grate on me regardless. I make no bones about it.

I'll get around to having a look sometime.

PhiloCypher

Tony EH wrote: »

It's not really a potshot PC. I just had it in my head that there was a better NML scene involved. From what I'd heard it was...um "bigger"? But now it's in a small town that nobody gives a toss about. More to do with my own confusion than with having a go.

C'est la Vie.

In any case, I've been open on the thread about my meh about the character and the fact that its war setting (either 1 or 2) will probably grate on me regardless. I make no bones about it.

I'll get around to having a look sometime.

And in most peoples opinion it was a great scene Tony, but as it suits your preconceptions you're assuming the minority view is correct. As to the town itself, its emotional or narrative importance to the film/war would be clear if you'd watched it or we didn't mind spoiling it for you.

You should definitely give it a look , you might love it, you'll probably hate it, but at least you wont be so confused

Avatar MIA

Tony EH wrote: »

I'll get around to having a look sometime.

Probably best not to bother considering it's increasingly being spoiled for you.

When we were watching the NML scene we didn't know what happened next. And that had to happen or we'd have people saying, as above, 'WM would have been all over the news!'

iguana

Mickeroo wrote: »

It only happened once at a minor town nobody cared about, lasted roughly ten minutes and

most of the witnesses died the following day

.

By my reckoning it happened on the 9th of November 1918. Some 30 odd hours before the Armistice. No one would have given any credence to stories of some magical warrior woman freeing some village in the last hours of the war. It would have been a silly urban legend associated with people's relief and joy at the end of such an awful war.

Nervous Wreck

PhiloCypher wrote: »

And in most peoples opinion it was a great scene Tony, but as it suits your preconceptions you're assuming the minority view is correct

Neither view is correct, they're just opinions. In mine, that scene was just another scene. I was surprised to see people take to it so much tbh.

timothymaxy

I just love this movie, the music, the action scene, all the awesome Amazons. I cried several times when I was in the cinema and I can't wait for the Justice League!

Nerdlingr

Ahoy..there be spoilers ahead !!! ....

What happened to the great big German warship that floated into the island's force-field at the start? why even bother with a ragtag of heroes together when one is a sniper who doesnt shoot, one is an indian who only does smoke signals and the other does the ol 'oh he's so annoying let him in to the castle' schtick? rich woman decides to get out of the car and take a walk through the woods...as you do. Sooooo many plot holes and events that just scream...nooooo, whyyyyy?!!!! CGI horrible for the most part, especially at the beginning...basically just women doing cartwheels to a giant green screen. The script is AWFUL and very very lame. 'i choose love blah blah blah'...cringe!!! Here's my watch...i wish we had more time'...come on!!! Where was Steve actually taking WW before she decided to go across NML??'no we cant go that way, we're going the opposite way'... Just the long way round to the village was it? German soldiers hugging Indians at the end, German soldiers hugging each other... WW killing German soldiers with no remorse or any kind of conflict. "i'm here to save humanity...yeah lets kill some cannon fodder!!!!". Another boss battle in an airfield. Yawn. The two secondary bosses...Dr Poison and evil strong dude were rubbish too. Why didnt Steve when he took over the aeroplane just land it again??? ..... theses are just things off the top of my head... i really cant get the love and amazing reviews for it at all...but i'm glad other people like it.

Mickeroo

The German ship at the island sank.

Nerdlingr

Mickeroo wrote: »

The German ship at the island sank.

It did? Missed that! how'd it manage to do that?!! :eek:

Mickeroo

Nerdlingr wrote: »

It did? Missed that! how'd it manage to do that?!! :eek:

It ran on to the rocks, you can see it tilting to the side in the background at some stage during the fight.

Avatar MIA

Nerdlingr wrote: »

Why didnt Steve when he took over the aeroplane just land it again???

The bombs were on a Toy-mar.

For some reason that sentence read in my mind in an Arnold Schschwarzenegger voice.

Sad Professor

I liked it, which is more than I can say for the rest of the DCEU to date. Gadot/Jenkins really nailed WW's characterisation. But its obvious that the action scenes and most of the third act were outsourced to Snyder's second unit director. And apparently Jenkins really had to fight for the No Man's Land sequence as the studio and/or Snyder didn't see the point of it and wanted to cut it out. :rolleyes: I hope they let her direct all the sequel because she clearly knows what she's doing.

silverharp

Mickeroo wrote: »

It ran on to the rocks, you can see it tilting to the side in the background at some stage during the fight.

if you have only seen it once you are going to miss some stuff, some people thought it was a plot hole because they were wondering where the ship had gone.

Brief_Lives

silverharp wrote: »

if you have only seen it once you are going to miss some stuff, some people thought it was a plot hole because they were wondering where the ship had gone.

yep... guilty......

Mickeroo

I only watched it once, but yeah it happens in the background so I understand why some people would have missed it. Each time you see the ship it's tilting more and more.

iguana

Nerdlingr wrote: »

What happened to the great big nazi warship that floated into the island's force-field at the start? .............. Nazis hugging Indians at the end, Nazis hugging each other... WW killing Nazis with no remorse or any kind of conflict.

I think we need to have a kind of Godwin's Law off-shoot for every time someone calls the German soldiers in Wonder Woman nazis.

Nerdlingr

iguana wrote: »

I think we need to have a kind of Godwin's Law off-shoot for every time someone calls the German soldiers in Wonder Woman nazis.

Good point actually!! My bad! German soliders it is then...

Tony EH

Hollywood German soldiers usually are portrayed as nazis.

kunst nugget

I thought that film was absolute scutter. My punishment for misbehaving kids from now on is going to be to force them to watch the whole film again.

pixelburp

The German angle was handled well... enough, by all accounts. Better than I thought it would & had assumed the Germans would be essentially shown as proto-Nazis; but with the obvious exception of the general & Dr. Poison, what little we saw was of a country exhausted by the war & its civilian government wanting an out (more or less what happened), while the soldiers just ordinary saps brainwashed by a lust for conflict.

I doubt the estate of Erich Remarque or Sigfried Sassoon would have thought it all a stirring account of a lost generation or anything, but the film made some lip service towards the notion of a pointless war without demonstrable sides.

PhiloCypher

Tony EH wrote: »

Hollywood German soldiers usually are portrayed as nazis.

Because Hollywood predominantly made WW2 movies . Trench warfare just wasn't glamorous enough and neither side fit neatly into the good/bad box Hollywood loves so much .

iguana

pixelburp wrote: »

what little we saw was of a country exhausted by the war & its civilian government wanting an out (more or less what happened), while the soldiers just ordinary saps brainwashed by a lust for conflict.

That was Belgium. What little we saw of Germany was the military commanders and the wealthy at a ball. In reality during this period German was undergoing a military uprising and revolution which forced the abdication of the Kaiser and made Gremany into a democratic republic. On the day that Diana was striding across No Man's Land, the revolutionaries had won, Wilhem II abdicated and his son's claim was renounced, ending the monarchy and Germany was declared a republic. On the day that all the upper classes were waltzing around in a fancy castle in the movie, in reality, the Kaiser was fleeing Germany to live in exile in the neutral Netherlands.

The end of the first world war was actually a hell of a lot more interesting than a generic movie battle between gods. It's a pity that the plot didn't pick up on some of those historical elements. Diana could have provided the inspiration for the Germans to over-throw their monarchy, set up a new republic and declare an armistice. But she could then have been so disgusted with how badly the new republic she inspired was treated in Versailles and essentially crippled from it's inception, leading to the rise of Nazism that she walked away from humanity.

pixelburp

iguana wrote: »

That was Belgium. What little we saw of Germany was the military commanders and the wealthy at a ball. [...]

There was that small scene between the General & a board room of what appeared to be politicians and civilians, which I took to be a nod towards the civilian revolution that happened. It certainly made it clear that at this stage the general & armies were supposed to be beholden to this government. Even the chatter in London appeared more about peace talks than a military victory.

Didn't say the history was correct or anything, and I daresay the opportunity for more nuance was lost under the demand for the mandated CGI showdowns, but by and large the film avoided the lazy portrayal of ww1 Germany as inherently evil Nazis - however low a bar that might be. Heck, they even managed a few Ottoman soldiers in the Turkish / Mediterranean settings, so clearly there was some attempt to get the details right.

Plus at the end of the day, it is a film about gods; as interesting as more accurate historical detail would have been, I don't think a history lesson would have helped the film.

iguana

pixelburp wrote: »

Plus at the end of the day, it is a film about gods; as interesting as more accurate historical detail would have been, I don't think a history lesson would have helped the film.

It didn't have to be though. All of these movies end with a big epic battle showdown, it's just the same old thing over and over and over again. It wasn't bad but it's not new, interesting or exciting. And yet the source material for these movies, while of course regularly including epic showdowns, the stand out stories that last the test of times are the so often the ones which climax mutely in human nature. Stories like God Loves, Man Kills where an ordinary security guard kills the bad guy to protect a super hero who he could see was just a young girl. The Phoenix Saga which ultimately ends in a conversation about how it's impossible to live with so much power and not be corrupted.

The enduring power of comic books has always been their ability to reflect both the good in humanity while also highlighting the uncomfortable truths. The action is a fun bonus but not the central theme. I enjoy a great battle scene as much as the next person but this movie could have been so much more than a generic battle scene climax. There were so many hints along the way that this was going to be much more than a movie where Diana would vanquish the big bad and all would be well. Just moving the setting to the morally ambiguous WW1 instead of her actual origin as a Nazi bashing hero was a hint that this would be something different. And instead it was just DC going the Marvel movie route with muted colours.

Heckler

iguana wrote: »

It didn't have to be though. All of these movies end with a big epic battle showdown, it's just the same old thing over and over and over again. It wasn't bad but it's not new, interesting or exciting. And yet the source material for these movies, while of course regularly including epic showdowns, the stand out stories that last the test of times are the so often the ones which climax mutely in human nature. Stories like God Loves, Man Kills where an ordinary security guard kills the bad guy to protect a super hero who he could see was just a young girl. The Phoenix Saga which ultimately ends in a conversation about how it's impossible to live with so much power and not be corrupted.

The enduring power of comic books has always been their ability to reflect both the good in humanity while also highlighting the uncomfortable truths. The action is a fun bonus but not the central theme. I enjoy a great battle scene as much as the next person but this movie could have been so much more than a generic battle scene climax. There were so many hints along the way that this was going to be much more than a movie where Diana would vanquish the big bad and all would be well. Just moving the setting to the morally ambiguous WW1 instead of her actual origin as a Nazi bashing hero was a hint that this would be something different. And instead it was just DC going the Marvel movie route with muted colours.

Agreed. There was a lot of potential there.

Some seriously bad acting and dialogue.

For a 2017 blockbuster there was well dodgy CGI.

And yeah, she is stunning.

Agent Coulson

Just passed Deadpool in the US Box office.

vancityreynoldsThe Merc May Be Filthier, but Her B.O. is Stronger. Congrats #WonderWoman #BoxOfficeBoss

https://www.instagram.com/p/BWYyVO2jV86/

silverharp

is there a plot hole with their boat trip from ~Greece back to the UK, it would have taken a month or 2 but in film they have allegedly done it in a couple of days?

techdiver

silverharp wrote: »

is there a plot hole with their boat trip from ~Greece back to the UK, it would have taken a month or 2 but in film they have allegedly done it in a couple of days?

Probably a small one, but they did hitch a ride from a mechanical boat and it didn't strictly specify that they had arrived the day after. A couple of days could have passed.

silverharp

techdiver wrote: »

Probably a small one, but they did hitch a ride from a mechanical boat and it didn't strictly specify that they had arrived the day after. A couple of days could have passed.

I think the line was a "tug boat" and they don't normally do sea voyages but even if , it would have taken weeks whereas 2 days would be like 70mph, not something chugging the med at 10 to 15 knots.

techdiver

silverharp wrote: »

I think the line was a "tug boat" and they don't normally do sea voyages but even if , it would have taken weeks whereas 2 days would be like 70mph, not something chugging the med at 10 to 15 knots.

Oh, I agree it's a plot hole to an extent, but in the grand scheme of things not really that big of a deal.

But once again there was no time frame mentioned for the voyage.

silverharp

techdiver wrote: »

Oh, I agree it's a plot hole to an extent, but in the grand scheme of things not really that big of a deal.

But once again there was no time frame mentioned for the voyage.

Its not something you would pick up overly watching first time, Im more curious about how film makers attitude and how they deal with these, do they go with a cynical use of a "mcguffin" because the rubes wont notice or did they even notice and are just shiite at geography and sailing?

techdiver

silverharp wrote: »

Its not something you would pick up overly watching first time, Im more curious about how film makers attitude and how they deal with these, do they go with a cynical use of a "mcguffin" because the rubes wont notice or did they even notice and are just shiite at geography and sailing?

I would say a bit of the latter.

Bacchus

Just watched this last night. Overall I enjoyed it, it edges out MoS as the best in the DCEU so far IMO. Gadot and Pine are brilliant together and they really sold the relationship between Diana and Steve. That WW actually evoked an emotional response with Steve's sacrifice at the end speaks volumes. The last comic book movie to do that was the first Captain America movie (in eerily similar circumstances) and it is something missing in the vast majority of the MCU and DCEU movies fail to achieve. It also hit a nice balance of humour, action, and drama. Diana's "fish out of water" perspective really added to it too. The action was very well done. No Mans Land in particular was just awesome. The fight with Ludendoff was pretty decent. It had a nice close quarters, weighty feel to it. Even the final fight looked good.

It's not all good though. While I don't think there's any major issues with WW, there's a good few minor things that bugged me.
- They went a bit OTT with the "war is hell" message, mostly coming from Steve. I mean, we can see that, it doesn't need to be stated so much.
- The CGI/action/choreography is ropey in places. The opening montage of Amazonians training was ambitious but ultimately looked fake. A lot of WW's movements looked 'off' to me. It's like she was gliding around the place at times. There was no consistency to how she moved. Maybe that was on purpose but there were several times where they way she moved just looked wrong.
- Some of the dialogue was quite cringe. One that sticks out like a sore thumb was the exchange between Dr. Poison and Ludendoff after throwing the poison (and mask) into the room with all the generals. It was like something out of the 60s Batman show it was that cheesy - evil laugh and all.
- The rag tag group was too in your face rag tag. They obviously tried to go for light and likable but I think they overshot on their portrayal of that. That moment with them huddled together facing death was touching though.
- How is the Amazonian island still hidden? Ok fine, the ship went down but 1) surely the Germans would investigate the disappearance of one of their ships and crew and would know the general area to look in, and 2) Given that Steve was flying from Belgium to London how has no other ship ever stumbled on to it before? The English Channel isn't that big. Also, I find it really weird that it happens to be in the English channel
- Why, when Aries is killed, do the German soldiers all start hugging each other (and their enemies)? Aries was telling the truth when he said he was not influencing man, merely giving them tools. So why this contradiction? I quite liked the whole journey of Diana realising that man was flawed and capable of terrible things all on their own. The ending kinda undid that.

That might seem like a lot of negatives but overall I did enjoy it a lot. I much rather these kind of minor annoyances over the messes that SS and BvS were. It's up there with the best of the MCU despite its flaws and hopefully the rest of the DCEU can learn from it.

Bacchus

silverharp wrote: »

is there a plot hole with their boat trip from ~Greece back to the UK, it would have taken a month or 2 but in film they have allegedly done it in a couple of days?

Actually, I'm a bit confused here. Wasn't Steve in Belgium when he stole the notebook? Isn't that where Dr. Poison was doing her work? And then he was flying to the UK. How did he end up near Greece? I had just assumed the Amazonian island was somewhere between Belgium and the UK.

Mickeroo

Bacchus wrote: »

Actually, I'm a bit confused here. Wasn't Steve in Belgium when he stole the notebook? Isn't that where Dr. Poison was doing her work? And then he was flying to the UK. How did he end up near Greece? I had just assumed the Amazonian island was somewhere between Belgium and the UK.

No he was in Turkey, the base was in a desert wasn't it?

pixelburp

Bacchus wrote: »

Actually, I'm a bit confused here. Wasn't Steve in Belgium when he stole the notebook? Isn't that where Dr. Poison was doing her work? And then he was flying to the UK. How did he end up near Greece? I had just assumed the Amazonian island was somewhere between Belgium and the UK.

Nope it was somewhere in the Med; I suspect it was Turkey, as the troops Steve snuck past were very definitely wearing uniforms of the Ottoman Empire.

techdiver

Bacchus wrote: »

Actually, I'm a bit confused here. Wasn't Steve in Belgium when he stole the notebook? Isn't that where Dr. Poison was doing her work? And then he was flying to the UK. How did he end up near Greece? I had just assumed the Amazonian island was somewhere between Belgium and the UK.

No he was in a "secret military installation" in the Ottoman Empire.

So close geographically to where Themyscira would be.

silverharp

Bacchus wrote: »

- How is the Amazonian island still hidden?

that does take you out of it a bit , unless they did they should have thrown in a line that there is some force wall where you cant see the island or its a different dimension or something. I was expecting the island to be off South America somewhere which would at least make the still hidden bit somewhat plausible

Mickeroo

silverharp wrote: »

that does take you out of it a bit , unless they did they should have thrown in a line that there is some force wall where you cant see the island or its a different dimension or something. I was expecting the island to be off South America somewhere which would at least make the still hidden bit somewhat plausible

Yeah all they had to do was put in a throw away line that the magic keeps the island hidden unless it wants to "let" someone in or something like that.