Cross on summit of Carrauntoohil cut down with angle grinder (Warning: contains TLAs)

Cabaal

Username32 wrote: »

How do you define what's "an area of outstanding beauty".

I don't have to, the goverment and appropriate goverment departments do. Of course local interest groups are free to loppy for area's to receive protection

I suppose you could seek a majority view of such a decision. But you would be imposing this view.

I'm imposing my view? err how?
Do I run the goverment now?

The people elect the goverment, not me.

What about the individual who does not share this view?
You impinge on their rights.

Yeah, you'll always get groups that don't share a view that a landscape should be protected. Generally speaking they have other interests, examples of this in the US include oil pipe line building, dams, fracking etc.

In Ireland you get individual's who are against protection of countryside, again they generally have their own vested interests and those interests generally boil down to money.

Also are you advocating some communist style take over of private land?

:rolleyes:

No, I'm talking about land that is of outstanding natural beauty. I'm not talking about land that will be used for factorys, mass farming or any other use other then ensuring the general public have access to that land so they and their children can enjoy it.

This type of mindset has ensured that numerous countrys have v large natural parks. Ireland in comparison has a extremely small amount of land dedicated to natural parks. This should be changed, its good for everyone.

Of course as we've learned, planning or no planning private land owners can get away with building all sorts of crap without proper permission. 4 years on this is very well known illegal structure still standing.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achill-henge

Brian Shanahan

Cabaal wrote: »

you don't think area's of outstanding natural beauty should be run by the state to ensure the public has access to them?

Actually, unless the law has changed since 1921, the state owns all the land in the country. Because under British law (and remember Irish law is still 75%+ British law) the land is owned legally by the monarch, and what ordinary private citizens own is freehold rights on the land they posses, which under certain circumstances can be revoked quite easily.

curioser

Cabaal wrote: »

its a none question and a silly none question at that because what makes these sites of interest is they are area's of outstanding natural beauty,

Doesn't matter if its 10 feet above sea level, area's of outstanding natural beauty shouldn't be in private ownership.

What the h*ll is a "none question"? And why does the plural of "area" merit an apostrophe? Bloody hell, I've had five pints and I still think I make better sense than the quote!

Turtwig

At a guess, 'non' question and s/he is posting from their phone.

Peregrinus

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

Actually, unless the law has changed since 1921, the state owns all the land in the country. Because under British law (and remember Irish law is still 75%+ British law) the land is owned legally by the monarch, and what ordinary private citizens own is freehold rights on the land they posses, which under certain circumstances can be revoked quite easily.

None of this is true, but don't let that worry you.

More generally with regard to areas of outstanding natural beauty, there is a national parks policy in Ireland for the conservation of (among other things) natural landscapes of great beauty. The policy involves the State acquiring ownership of the land (usually by negotiation and agreement but sometimes by CPO). But in general land will not be acquired for a park simply because it looks pretty or because it is very high; there is a focus on protecting unspoiled ecosystems and areas of signficant scientific, educational or cultural value. Acquiring land is expensive (because, yes, Brian, the State does have to pay to acquire any land which it doesn't already own) plus, of course, once you have acquired it you have to conserve and maintain it - otherwise what is the point of a national park? And that's expensive.

There is a Killarney National Park in Kerry, but Carrauntoohill lies well outside it, and so far as I know there are no plans to extend the park to include Carrauntoohill. There are various threats to the mountain and its ecosystem; any threat posed by the possiblity of re-erecting the cross (or erecting any other monument) on the summit is, frankly, probably fairly far down the list of Things To Worry About. To the extent that it is a threat, it's almost certainly a threat that can be addressed through the planning system. The risk that somebody might put up a monument that expresses sentiments not shared by members of this board is, to be honest, not a legitimate concern of public policy. Toughen up, princesses!

(Carrauntoohill does lie within the Killarney National Park, McGillicuddy Reeks and Caragh River Catchment Special Area of Conservation, but being in an SAC doesn't involve being taken into public ownership. The SAC was declared for the protection of the Kerry Spotted Slug, an aesthetically revolting but scientifically interesting species. Unless the erection of a monument on the summit is in some way a threat to the slug, the SAC restrictions are unlikely to be an issue here.)

robindch

Did either of these get posted? Don't think so.

Cora Sherlock weighs in. We've reached Stalin by the third paragraph. Original screed here

Cora Sherlock wrote:

If you want an insight into the thinking of Atheist Ireland, you could do worse than listen to this Newstalk debate between its chairperson, Michael Nugent, and Timothy Moriarty, chairman of Beauford Community Council. Following the recent vandalism of the cross atop Carrauntoohill, most people seem to think that it should be re-instated. Not Michael Nugent, who thinks that this is the perfect opportunity to put a more “inclusive” symbol in its place.

I can’t imagine most atheists listening in were too thrilled with the position taken by the most well-known spokesperson for atheism in the country. After all, he admits that the existence of the cross, never mind its location, wasn’t even on his radar as one of the things to be offended by – not until it was cut down in the middle of the night by angle-grinding vandals, that is. But now that’s happened, well I suppose a cynic might suggest it’s a good chance to get on the radio and rail about how the cross was just a sign of bad old Catholic Ireland with its Magdalene Laundries and child abuse (two things Catholics are incensed over, in case Michael’s wondering).

Not a word of sympathy from Michael for any of the locals who might be upset that such a thing could happen. No acknowledgement from him either that all of the people who sent correspondence and emails to the local Council supporting the reinstatement of the cross have any right to their opinion.

And you know, for a man who loves the idea of inclusion, Michael specialises in a peculiar form of double-speak. According to him, aggressive Muslims fly planes into buildings and aggressive Catholics bomb abortion clinics, while the most aggressive thing atheists do is write books. He blames the tyranny and unbelievable cruelty of Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot on their fascism rather than their atheism – this despite the fact that they were communists, not fascists, and a central tenet of communism is the annihilation of organised religion. (Come to think of it, they were all more interested in burning books than writing them but best not let this particular atheist fantasy unravel).

Michael had another excuse ready anyway – there’s all kinds of atheists apparently, good and bad – just like there’s good and bad religious people. Hooray! Isn’t it strange though, how, whenever you point out the shortcomings of well known atheists, you’re suddenly told that there’s all kinds of atheists, when up to that point, Catholics have been painted with the same judgmental, Magdalene-promoting, abortion-clinic-exploding brush. Funny, that.

I do wonder if Michael ever steps outside the narrow confines of this country at all. I suppose chasing down tales of vandalised crosses must take up a lot of time but it is strange that the only other recent case he could think of where a religious icon was vandalised was in Ballinspittle. Michael was quick to point out that the culprits were members of another Christian group. He also said that they were praying on their bibles while in court.

What he didn’t say was that this happened in 1985. Maybe he doesn’t know the date. Maybe he also doesn’t know that there are plenty of other cases of vandalism and aggression by atheists. A quick google search for example, will turn up the Femen Group. Founded in Ukraine in the far-more-recent 2008, they’re now based in Paris and part of their raison d’etre is to protest against religion. To date, they’ve attacked the Orthodox Christian Leader in Russia, desecrated Cathedrals and crucifixes, and seem incapable of making a political comment without taking their clothes off. Shows a lack of confidence in their argument if you ask me, but there you go.

They’ve also been known to chop down a cross or two themselves (weapon of choice: chainsaw), and seeing as they like to test the forebearance of law enforcement agencies throughout most European countries, I’m surprised they haven’t popped up on Michael’s radar before now. I suppose they don’t fit the bill of what he considers a non-aggressive atheist, even on days when their actions are solely directed at religious institutions and religion in general. Now that I come to think of it, the only words they’re known for are the ones scrawled across their bare breasts while they’re shocking families who are taking their children to see St. Peter’s Square in Rome. So no “writing books” then. Oh well, maybe Michael will enlighten us on what sub-genre of “aggressive atheist” they fall into in his next media blitz. Here’s hoping.

Perhaps this is one crusade that Michael should have avoided. The way to respond to vandalism is to neutralise it by replacing what was lost. Anything else very quickly looks like a campaign built on its coat-tails, or worse, an obvious own goal.

robindch

And a guy named Ian O'Doherty at the indo is similarly moved to invect.

Ian O'Doherty wrote:

Well, a little-known cross, which became a lot better known once it was cut down has now been re-erected, much to the chagrin of some people who really should have better things to occupy their time. The cross of Carrauntoohil has been in place, in one form or another, since the early 1950s, and locals in Kerry were understandably outraged to see that someone had taken an angle grinder to the landmark last week.

The vandalism was quickly followed by one of those spats which manage to be both depressing and unintentionally hilarious, as various sides of the religious divide waged an intellectual battle which, frankly, could have been ripped straight from a Fr Ted script.

We're well used to controversial eyesores which divide opinion in this country, we normally just call them wind turbines. However, once the news emerged that the cross had been removed with extreme prejudice, Atheist Ireland argued that it should not be replaced because it wasn't "inclusive" enough and probably didn't even have the proper planning admission. And, with that first salvo, we once more wandered down the rabbit hole of common sense.

Michael Nugent of Atheist Ireland appeared on radio to list his objections, which were many and varied and featured the old canard that such an overtly religious symbol didn't reflect our new "inclusivity".

He further added, correctly, that there should be a separation of Church and State, before graciously allowing that the locals should be encouraged to come up with a new symbol to express their sense of community. Funnily enough, that's exactly what they did - by going back to the mountain on Saturday and reinstating the old cross after a repair job.

That's unlikely to be the end of the matter, which has now become a public issue. Instead, it's merely the latest in a long line of ridiculous and some might say, vexatious, complaints by atheists here and abroad who seem to delight in taking offence. These seasonal arguments, usually about the horrors of seeing a nativity scene in a public space and just as silly as the objections to the Carrauntoohil cross, simply reinforce the idea that all atheists are dour, pursed-lipped commissars determined to rip any sign of religion from the public psyche.

Not the for the first time in these pages, I should point out that I'm an atheist and both know Nugent and respect him, even though we don't actually agree on very much. But that's the point or, to be more accurate, the result of atheism. It simply means that you don't believe in something, not that you should join a collective and look for things to offend your delicate sensibilities. Yet for people who have come to a conscious and logical conclusion that there is no afterlife, no God and no magic, many atheists seem to hold an almost primitive belief in the power of symbology.

Such objections irk as many non-believers as they do the faithful because it simply evokes a phrase beloved of so many liberals: "Not in my name." After all, Atheist Ireland doesn't represent atheists in Ireland, they simply represent their members, and like all successful lobby groups, people often get the impression that they speak for all of their 'community'. They don't.

Cranky religious types, who think everyone should behave according their particular moral law, have long held the monopoly in daft objections and telling people what to do, which is one of the reasons why so many people turn their back on religion.

If atheists are united by one thing it is surely a desire to be left alone, a courtesy which should have been reciprocated here. Fundamentalism and extremism are the greatest threats since the end of the Cold War but a cross, or a nativity scene in a hospital, or even the relic that is the Angelus aren't part of that threat. And if you're offended by them, then there's really only one piece of advice - get over yourself.

swampgas

Just to pick up on one point, from a Cora Sherlock comment posted by robindch:

Not a word of sympathy from Michael for any of the locals who might be upset that such a thing could happen. No acknowledgement from him either that all of the people who sent correspondence and emails to the local Council supporting the reinstatement of the cross have any right to their opinion.

Look at the uppity atheists, with their different opinions, daring to contradict us!

I very much doubt that Michael Nugent (or any other atheists really) think that the local residents should be denied the right to an opinion. In fact Cora seems to be arguing against AI expressing an opinion themselves, which is ironic.

Cora seems to be saying that disagreeing with someone's opinion is somehow denying their right to an opinion. Maybe it's denying them a right to an uncontested opinion, which is what they are used to and want to maintain perhaps - but too bad, the days when everybody kept their heads down when they were told what to do and think by the "moral majority" are long gone.

jank

robindch wrote: »

Did either of these get posted? Don't think so.

Cora Sherlock weighs in. We've reached Stalin by the forth paragraph. Original screed here

FYP

Shrap

jank wrote: »

FYP

Fourth

recedite

Peregrinus wrote: »

None of this is true, but don't let that worry you.

Depends what you mean by ownership, but it is true that you can only "own" property with the permission of the state (formerly "the crown") Permission can be withdrawn at any time as this guy discovered, and even full freehold "ownership" rights are qualified, ie subject to planning laws etc. and do not extend to mining or mineral rights.

jank

robindch wrote: »

And a guy named Ian O'Doherty at the indo is similarly moved to invect.

AFAIK Ian O'Doherty describes himself as Atheist. He comes across as conservative though which for some hear is hard to separate from 'Old Catholic Ireland' but he has been in the past and present been a huge critic of the RCC. It's just he does not sing from the social justice and equality wing of the left. Points he raises are valid by the way.

Yet for people who have come to a conscious and logical conclusion that there is no afterlife, no God and no magic, many atheists seem to hold an almost primitive belief in the power of symbology

Fundamentalism and extremism are the greatest threats since the end of the Cold War but a cross, or a nativity scene in a hospital, or even the relic that is the Angelus aren't part of that threat. And if you're offended by them, then there's really only one piece of advice - get over yourself.

Shrap

jank wrote: »

Points he raises are valid by the way.

I disagree. I think he's being disingenuous with this:

Yet for people who have come to a conscious and logical conclusion that there is no afterlife, no God and no magic, many atheists seem to hold an almost primitive belief in the power of symbology

It's hardly the "magical" power of the cross that I would have a problem with, it's the symbolism of the power they have over every institution in this country. That's not primitive, that's present. Every time you walk through the doors of a hospital with a cross on it, that symbolises that you will be treated under a Catholic ethos. When you investigate schools in your area, a cross symbolises that your children may be discriminated against for a place in that school. IMO the symbolism of the cross in Ireland to atheists has nothing whatsoever to do with the power of a god and everything got to do with the power of an institution over people who don't subscribe to it.

jank

Shrap wrote: »

I disagree. I think he's being disingenuous with this:

It's hardly the "magical" power of the cross that I would have a problem with, it's the symbolism of the power they have over every institution in this country. That's not primitive, that's present. Every time you walk through the doors of a hospital with a cross on it, that symbolises that you will be treated under a Catholic ethos. When you investigate schools in your area, a cross symbolises that your children may be discriminated against for a place in that school. IMO the symbolism of the cross in Ireland to atheists has nothing whatsoever to do with the power of a god and everything got to do with the power of an institution over people who don't subscribe to it.

Well, you are certainly free to hold that belief but as Ian Doherty (an atheist) says..

Such objections irk as many non-believers as they do the faithful because it simply evokes a phrase beloved of so many liberals: "Not in my name." After all, Atheist Ireland doesn't represent atheists in Ireland, they simply represent their members, and like all successful lobby groups, people often get the impression that they speak for all of their 'community'. They don't.

There are many atheists who could not give two ****s if a cross was in a hospital or not. Their priority is getting access to quality health care. The HSE has bigger problems than a cross hanging over the front door. Just because people here might be vocal about it, doesn't mean that there is even a majority atheist view point like this, never mind a broad consensus.

Peregrinus

recedite wrote: »

Depends what you mean by ownership, but it is true that you can only "own" property with the permission of the state (formerly "the crown")

I don't think it is, really. Property is a social construct; you only have property rights in relation to something if society generally thinks you do, and the extent of your property rights is what people generally think it is. That social assent is expressed through the state. I suppose in that sense you can say that people can only own property with the "permission" of the state, but by the same reasoning you could say that people can only have a name with the "permission" of the state, they can only marry with the "permission" of the state, they can only get a university degree or a professional qualification with the "permission" of the state, etc.

I think what you mean is that property is a social construct. That's true. But, then, so is religion. That doesn't mean that either of them are easily shifted!

recedite wrote: »

Permission can be withdrawn at any time as this guy discovered, and even full freehold "ownership" rights are qualified, ie subject to planning laws etc. and do not extend to mining or mineral rights.

It's not true that permission can be "withdrawn at any time". Property rights are constitutionally guaranteed, rebember. (Incidentally, it's the Consitution that's the foundation of property rights in Ireland, not the State's role as successor to the Crown.) While compulsory purchase procedures (which is what happened in the case you link to) are possible, they are limited by the constitutional provisions and they involve payment of compensation. The upper slopes of Carrauntoohill could be compulsorily purchase if the statutory grounds for compulsory purchase are satisfied (I haven't looked into whether they are or not) and if the state is prepared to pay the compensation that would be assessed.

Shrap

jank wrote: »

Their priority is getting access to quality health care.

Exactly. Not health care limited by the Catholic ethos. Unless you've been living in a cave with no media access, you may have noticed how this has held back adequate health care in this country.

I've grown up atheist in Ireland (second generation, actually) and I can safely tell you that to ME (never mind Ian O'D or AI) the cross symbolises the ways that my own human rights and those of my children can be adversely effected by public services like the HSE and the education system in my own country. Don't you dare belittle that experience of religion in Ireland and write it off as "not getting over myself".

PopePalpatine

swampgas wrote: »

Look at the uppity atheists, with their different opinions, daring to contradict us!

I very much doubt that Michael Nugent (or any other atheists really) think that the local residents should be denied the right to an opinion. In fact Cora seems to be arguing against AI expressing an opinion themselves, which is ironic.

Cora seems to be saying that disagreeing with someone's opinion is somehow denying their right to an opinion. Maybe it's denying them a right to an uncontested opinion, which is what they are used to and want to maintain perhaps - but too bad, the days when everybody kept their heads down when they were told what to do and think by the "moral majority" are long gone.

I got to the fourth paragraph of her drivel before giving up. It's like some bull**** you'd expect one of the theocrats from t'udder forum (I'm referring in particular to one who got his arse handed to him by Bannasidhe, and who seems to have few other ways of communicating apart from sneering) - it's little more than "might makes right, now get to the back of the bus you heathen".

jank

Shrap wrote: »

Exactly. Not health care limited by the Catholic ethos. Unless you've been living in a cave with no media access, you may have noticed how this has held back adequate health care in this country.

Are you seriously suggesting the state of health care in Ireland is primarily due to its past Catholic Ethos? I would suggest you drop the rose tinted glasses and point the fingers at the HSE, squabbling middle management, lack of leadership, the centralisation disaster, Unions, political interference and public sector resistance to reform. You can blame the RCC for a lot of things, but the current health system in 2014 is not one of them. Removing a cross off the front door will not fix the health system over night.

Shrap wrote: »

I've grown up atheist in Ireland (second generation, actually) and I can safely tell you that to ME (never mind Ian O'D or AI) the cross symbolises the ways that my own human rights and those of my children can be adversely effected by public services like the HSE and the education system in my own country. Don't you dare belittle that experience of religion in Ireland and write it off as "not getting over myself" .

As I said you are entitled to your opinion but I am perfectly entitled to tell you my opinion of that in return which would align closely to what Ian Doherty says in his last sentence.

I would wager that if you polled the Irish people tomorrow about health service 'secularisation' would not even be in the top 25.

lazybones32

Cabaal wrote: »

You realise that if a land owner did have the law technically behind them and they denied access then they'd be total outcry and it would likely end up going to court for such a important access right.

Dogs is one thing, stopping all access is another

They do have the Law behind them. That's why I wrote about the old head of Kinsale and Natl. Parks being the only places in the State where there is freedom to roam.
A Mayo farmer/landowner has blocked off access to uggool beach and even walked free from assaulting a hiker who was trespassing on 'his' beach. Google it.

Shrap

jank wrote: »

Are you seriously suggesting the state of health care in Ireland is primarily due to its past Catholic Ethos?

No, that's you suggesting that, and you that's straw-manning away happily. We were talking about the symbolism of the cross, remember? And I had explained what it symbolises to me. End of derail, from my keyboard anyway.

magicbastarder

lazybones32 wrote: »

I wrote about the old head of Kinsale and Natl. Parks being the only places in the State where there is freedom to roam.

there isn't access to the old head of kinsale - unless you're playing golf.

swampgas

Shrap wrote: »

Exactly. Not health care limited by the Catholic ethos. Unless you've been living in a cave with no media access, you may have noticed how this has held back adequate health care in this country.

I've grown up atheist in Ireland (second generation, actually) and I can safely tell you that to ME (never mind Ian O'D or AI) the cross symbolises the ways that my own human rights and those of my children can be adversely effected by public services like the HSE and the education system in my own country. Don't you dare belittle that experience of religion in Ireland and write it off as "not getting over myself".

Exactly - and every time someone tries to raise public awareness of the fact that not everybody in the country is Catholic, or Christian, often the reaction is "get over yourselves - it shouldn't bother you". It really is the case that people like Cora Sherlock just want atheists to shut up and be silent, so they can continue their religious discrimination in peace.

jank

Shrap wrote: »

No, that's you suggesting that, and you that's straw-manning away happily. We were talking about the symbolism of the cross, remember? And I had explained what it symbolises to me. End of derail, from my keyboard anyway.

Then perhaps you should amend your post as this is what you are clearly inferring.

Shrap wrote: »

Exactly. Not health care limited by the Catholic ethos. Unless you've been living in a cave with no media access, you may have noticed how this has held back adequate health care in this country.

You built your own scarecrow there I am afraid.

jank

swampgas wrote: »

Exactly - and every time someone tries to raise public awareness of the fact that not everybody in the country is Catholic, or Christian, often the reaction is "get over yourselves - it shouldn't bother you". It really is the case that people like Cora Sherlock just want atheists to shut up and be silent, so they can continue their religious discrimination in peace.

It seems other Atheists would be of that opinion as well. Everyone has the right to be outraged, nobody has the right to make you give a $hit.

swampgas

robindch wrote: »

And a guy named Ian O'Doherty at the indo is similarly moved to invect.

Quoth Ian O'Doherty:

That's unlikely to be the end of the matter, which has now become a public issue. Instead, it's merely the latest in a long line of ridiculous and some might say, vexatious, complaints by atheists here and abroad who seem to delight in taking offence. These seasonal arguments, usually about the horrors of seeing a nativity scene in a public space and just as silly as the objections to the Carrauntoohil cross, simply reinforce the idea that all atheists are dour, pursed-lipped commissars determined to rip any sign of religion from the public psyche.

A cross on a mountain is (clearly) something many Irish people see as perfectly normal, simply because being Catholic and having Catholic symbols is seen to be perfectly normal. However there is an unspoken assumption that such Catholic symbols must be tolerated by everyone regardless of their own religious views.

If the cross is a symbol of anything here, it is a symbol of the stubborn unwillingness of many Irish people to concede that there are plenty of non-Catholics living in Ireland and that they have rights too.

In fact the more that people like Ian O'Doherty insist that it's a non-issue, the more I am inclined to think that it is an issue - precisely because so many people can't even see that religious tolerance / lack of secularism is a significant issue in this country.

swampgas

jank wrote: »

It seems other Atheists would be of that opinion as well. Everyone has the right to be outraged, nobody has the right to make you give a $hit.

Well, people can't be forced to shut up and be silent either. Obviously nobody can be forced to have their opinions changed, but until they are actually aware that some people have an issue, how on earth do we move forward?

Should equal rights activists in other spheres (race or gender say) just shut up as well? Or should they attempt to make their case as best they can when issues arise? Even if many people think they are being ridiculous at the time?

It's not so much that I'm annoyed at a cross on a hill, I'm annoyed that so many people think I should not be allowed to disagree with a cross on a hill. Because that's an issue of my rights, and not simply a matter of "giving s $hit", as you put it.

lazygal

http://corasherlock.com/the-question-of-force-in-the-abortion-debate/

Cora has an equally inane piece on how women in Ireland not having the choice of abortion available to them isn't forcing them to remain pregnant. No siree.

expectationlost

Video of the Carrauntoohil Cross being cut down sent to journalists http://www.thejournal.ie/carrauntoohil-cross-3-1810988-Dec2014/

oh dear

Username32

swampgas wrote: »

Well, people can't be forced to shut up and be silent either. Obviously nobody can be forced to have their opinions changed, but until they are actually aware that some people have an issue, how on earth do we move forward?

Should equal rights activists in other spheres (race or gender say) just shut up as well? Or should they attempt to make their case as best they can when issues arise? Even if many people think they are being ridiculous at the time?

It's not so much that I'm annoyed at a cross on a hill, I'm annoyed that so many people think I should not be allowed to disagree with a cross on a hill. Because that's an issue of my rights, and not simply a matter of "giving s $hit", as you put it.

Oh come on now your not seriously equating the struggle for rights for gay people and gender equality with a mindless objection to a cross on a hill.

That's the kind of "only atheist in the village" nit picking that annoys me about so call spokes people for atheism.

We are living I'm a post Catholic church dominated ireland. Could some atheists start to understand that.

I am an atheist, let the cross stay where it is, I'm not in the slightest bit offended by it. Or the grottos holy wells cribs or any other relic on Catholic Ireland.

I happen to like the crib at Christmas and yea even in a hospital, as when I lived in the UK I liked the Hindu festival my neighbors celebrated.

So spokes people for atheism - can you make clear you dont speak for all atheists.

Ian o Doherty has got it right on this one and that's saying something.

PopePalpatine

The Christian Right is going to get even more prickish.