Cross on summit of Carrauntoohil cut down with angle grinder (Warning: contains TLAs)

looksee

I don't think the whole Catholic/Christian/Atheist argument matters here. What matters is that a small group of people took it on themselves to remove a structure on private land just because they wanted to impose their views on other people. I think it is quite right to replace it, or the vandals have established that they can impose whatever they want by force.

They could have approached the issue by asking or local opinion, using planning laws or any other legal means. just chopping down something that annoys you is not acceptable.

Some vandals in Waterford decided for whatever reason to chop down a 'fairy tree' on the way up to Mahon Falls. Were they Christians objecting to a pagan symbol? Or were they just ignorant fools who did it because they could? Another tree was planted to replace it, and rightly so, but the original tree which was a local landmark (for the magic road) is gone. Just because somebody wanted to inflict their views on other people.

Pro Hoc Vice

kandoola wrote: »

Feel free to point out where ANY gay nurses are getting fired for being gay and where ANY child will not being allowed to go to school based on their religion.

If we can keep the examples to this century that would be good too.
And please post example of it actually happening instead of it could happen. Sure they good become astronauts and walk on the moon some day too, but its as unlikely.
And the people in those articles problems stem from bigotry, not religion. That can happen in any workplace / town / school in the world.
Thats a problem of society. They arent going to be fired for being gay.

But to go back to the topic. Im sure a cross on a hill isnt going to hurt gay nurses or teacher or even children going to school either.

So you believe it is ok to have a law that's tells a number of people in society that they can not be afforded the protection of the state in equality matters.

So you would support a law that tells a person you are inferior as long as we don't act on that law. It's not that any person is treated badly but that the organs of state say it's legal to do so.

If the law is never used why do we have it, just remove it problem solved.

But on the topic I think it was mindless vandalisim to knock it down and I'm not so happy with it being put up, not because it's a cross but because it has little merit as a piece of sculpture. I would be horrified if someone knocked down a Celtic cross but that metal monstroticity well it's not very tasteful but then can't accuse the people who put it up of having much taste.

katydid

Cabaal wrote: »

Ok so, but clearly these people identify themselves as Catholic on the census... Not Christian.
.

Because "Catholic" is a subset of Christian. They don't need to write down Christian as well.

katydid

kandoola wrote: »

My child is in a state funded school. There was no problem at all.

.

You're lucky. It's a problem for many people. Just because it wasn't a problem for you doesn't mean it's not for others. Every citizen of this state should have a right to education without, for example, having to have their children baptised in a faith they don't believe in.

katydid

kandoola wrote: »

Feel free to point out where ANY gay nurses are getting fired for being gay and where ANY child will not being allowed to go to school based on their religion.

.

No idea about the gay nurses, but there are families all over the country who have problems getting children into their local school if they are of a different faith or none. I for one know several people who have had issues with such things, and I'm only one person.

lazygal

The local cofi school has no mention of any children other than those of a faith in its 11 criteria. My children aren't allowed to attend as they don't fit into any criteria for enrolment in it

J Mysterio

Dades wrote: »

Because the church in this country does not.

The church does live and let live. They are hardly knocking on your doors like Jehovah's Witnesses or forcibly converting. Just because they are visible does not mean they are intolerant.

Anyway, the church's message is about love and respect, horrific actions in the past by members of the church does not change that.

Dades wrote: »

When the state ends forced indoctrination in our schools I'll happily hang up my atheist-online hat and get on with something else.

Come on, be honest with yourself - 'forced indoctrination'? That's just childish. There has been real indoctrination in the past i.e. Hitler Jugend and there is real.indoctrination now with groups like IS/ ISIS/ ISIL. To claim that there is forced indoctrination in our schools is laughable.

Choose another school if you feel your kid cant just ignore it. I went to a Catholic primary school and, aside from Communion time, there was very little catholic about it.

Dades wrote: »

Do you think it's right that non-believers have to pretend to be catholic to get into schools?

I don't believe they do have to. Have your kids go to another school if it keeps you awake at night. Most 'Catholic schools' are only religious in name these days. They certainly aren't like the old christian schools were the local 'brothers' acted like tyrants.

eviltwin

J Mysterio wrote: »

The church does live and let live. They are hardly knocking on your doors like Jehovah's Witnesses or forcibly converting. Just because they are visible does not mean they are intolerant.

Anyway, the church's message is about love and respect, horrific actions in the past by members of the church does not change that.



Come on, be honest with yourself - 'forced indoctrination'? That's just childish. There has been real indoctrination in the past i.e. Hitler Jugend and there is real.indoctrination now with groups like IS/ ISIS/ ISIL. To claim that there is forced indoctrination in our schools is laughable.

Choose another school if you feel your kid cant just ignore it. I went to a Catholic primary school and, aside from Communion time, there was very little catholic about it.



I don't believe they do have to. Have your kids go to another school if it keeps you awake at night. Most 'Catholic schools' are only religious in name these days. They certainly aren't like the old christian schools were the local 'brothers' acted like tyrants.

Do you have any idea how difficult it is to find alternatives to a Catholic education?

shruikan2553

J Mysterio wrote: »

The church does live and let live. They are hardly knocking on your doors like Jehovah's Witnesses or forcibly converting. Just because they are visible does not mean they are intolerant.

Anyway, the church's message is about love and respect, horrific actions in the past by members of the church does not change that.

They are quite fond of making sure everyones version of marriage is the Christian version with the law backing them up. Hardly live and let live.

J Mysterio wrote: »

Come on, be honest with yourself - 'forced indoctrination'? That's just childish. There has been real indoctrination in the past i.e. Hitler Jugend and there is real.indoctrination now with groups like IS/ ISIS/ ISIL. To claim that there is forced indoctrination in our schools is laughable.

Choose another school if you feel your kid cant just ignore it. I went to a Catholic primary school and, aside from Communion time, there was very little catholic about it.

I don't believe they do have to. Have your kids go to another school if it keeps you awake at night. Most 'Catholic schools' are only religious in name these days. They certainly aren't like the old christian schools were the local 'brothers' acted like tyrants.

Indoctrination is still indoctrination, just because some places were worse doesnt mean it doesnt exist.

Indoctrination is the process of inculcating ideas, attitudes, cognitive strategies or a professional methodology (see doctrine).[1] It is often distinguished from education by the fact that the indoctrinated person is expected not to question or critically examine the doctrine they have learned.[2] As such the term may be used pejoratively, often in the context of political opinions, theology, religious dogma or anti-religious convictions. The term is closely linked to socialization; in common discourse, indoctrination is often associated with negative connotations, while socialization refers to cultural or educational learning.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indoctrination

J Mysterio

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

So you believe it is ok to have a law that's tells a number of people in society that they can not be afforded the protection of the state in equality matters.

So you would support a law that tells a person you are inferior as long as we don't act on that law. It's not that any person is treated badly but that the organs of state say it's legal to do so.

If the law is never used why do we have it, just remove it problem solved.

You are using your wider argument to nitpick at the minutiae. The Pope has said that he thinks gays will go to heaven etc. They are modernising, but very slowly.

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

But on the topic I think it was mindless vandalisim to knock it down and I'm not so happy with it being put up, not because it's a cross but because it has little merit as a piece of sculpture. I would be horrified if someone knocked down a Celtic cross but that metal monstroticity well it's not very tasteful but then can't accuse the people who put it up of having much taste.

lol, so respecting monuments only applies if you think they are very nice aesthetically. Never mind other people.

J Mysterio

eviltwin wrote: »

Do you have any idea how difficult it is to find alternatives to a Catholic education?

I do appreciate your point.

I would like to.see.more secular schools but just because I feel that way does not give me licence to be intolerant to others, who are the vast majority.

J Mysterio

shruikan2553 wrote: »

They are quite fond of making sure everyones version of marriage is the Christian version with the law backing them up. Hardly live and let live.



Indoctrination is still indoctrination, just because some places were worse doesnt mean it doesnt exist.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indoctrination

You call it indoctrination in Irish schools, I do not.

Cabaal

J Mysterio wrote: »

I do appreciate your point.

I would like to.see.more secular schools........

You'd like to see more?

I'd like to see atleast one to begin with!

J Mysterio

Is there not any? I thought there was.

Seems to me some schools are more overtly religious than others.

Pherekydes

J Mysterio wrote: »

You call it indoctrination in Irish schools, I do not.

Children are learning the church doctrine. Ergo, it is indocrination.

expectationlost

looksee wrote: »

I don't think the whole Catholic/Christian/Atheist argument matters here. What matters is that a small group of people took it on themselves to remove a structure on private land just because they wanted to impose their views on other people. I think it is quite right to replace it, or the vandals have established that they can impose whatever they want by force.

you seem to have more information on this then the rest of us.

Cantremember

J Mysterio wrote: »

You are using your wider argument to nitpick at the minutiae. The Pope has said that he thinks gays will go to heaven etc. They are modernising, /QUOTE]

Have you any sense of how funny it is to see someone talking about heaven as if it was real?

J Mysterio

Pherekydes wrote: »

Children are learning the church doctrine. Ergo, it is indocrination.

Haha. I see what you did there.

J Mysterio

Cantremember wrote: »

J Mysterio wrote: »

You are using your wider argument to nitpick at the minutiae. The Pope has said that he thinks gays will go to heaven etc. They are modernising,

Have you any sense of how funny it is to see someone talking about heaven as if it was real?

Yeah, imagine the pope doing that. Forget comedy central, tune to EWTN, hours of.laughs for you.

Cabaal

J Mysterio wrote: »

The church does live and let live. They are hardly knocking on your doors like Jehovah's Witnesses or forcibly converting. Just because they are visible does not mean they are intolerant.

You know what, you're right.

The church is all about peace, love and acceptance.

Thats why they have no problem with marriage equality and they are currently making thousands of women into priests.... Oh wait...

The reality is the church is happy to see women as inferior to men, and they've been against any equality granted to gay and lesbians people of the decades.

Not to mention they wanted condoms banned in ireland, didn't matter if you were Catholic or not, they didn't want you getting them.

Live and let live my arse

eviltwin

J Mysterio wrote: »

I do appreciate your point.

I would like to.see.more secular schools but just because I feel that way does not give me licence to be intolerant to others, who are the vast majority.

How is wanting an education free of religion being intolerant?

eviltwin

J Mysterio wrote: »

You are using your wider argument to nitpick at the minutiae. The Pope has said that he thinks gays will go to heaven etc. They are modernising, but very slowly.



lol, so respecting monuments only applies if you think they are very nice aesthetically. Never mind other people.

Getting into heaven isn't much of a consolation when you are denied the right to marry your partner just because you are gay.

J Mysterio

Cabaal wrote: »

You know what, you're right.

The church is all about peace, love and acceptance.

Thats why they have no problem with marriage equality and they are currently making thousands of women into priests.... Oh wait...

The reality is the church is happy to see women as inferior to men, and they've been against any equality granted to gay and lesbians people of the decades.

Not to mention they wanted condoms banned in ireland, didn't matter if you were Catholic or not, they didn't want you getting them.

Live and let live my arse

Condoms are no longer an issue and I have just pointed out the church are beginning to modernise in relation to gay people. I believe the pope said something positive in relation to women priests too but not sure on the particulars.

Its obvious the church needs to modernise and it is still.archaic in many ways. Current pope does seem like a nice chap though.

Either way, im not here to defend the church and will desist from that now -.my point is that it seems crazy for atheists to be so vindictive and militant.

riffmongous

I thought this was a thread about Corrán Tuathail?

J Mysterio

eviltwin wrote: »

How is wanting an education free of religion being intolerant?

It doesnt. I was making a broader point in respect of the attitudes here to the destruction of the Carrantuohill cross.

Pro Hoc Vice

J Mysterio wrote: »

Condoms are no longer an issue and I have just pointed out the church are beginning to modernise in relation to gay people. I believe the pope said something positive in relation to women priests too but not sure on the particulars.

Its obvious the church needs to modernise and it is still.archaic in many ways. Current pope does seem like a nice chap though.

Either way, im not here to defend the church and will desist from that now -.my point is that it seems crazy for atheists to be so vindictive and militant.

How do we know it's arheists who did this.

J Mysterio

riffmongous wrote: »

I thought this was a thread about Corrán Tuathail?

It is but, as can be seen, the attitudes of many atheists to the destruction of the cross is a microcosm of the macro attitude towards the church - I think that is natural debate.

Turtwig

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

How do we know it's arheists who did this.

Faith. :pac:

Cabaal

J Mysterio wrote: »

Condoms are no longer an issue and I have just pointed out the church are beginning to modernise in relation to gay people. .

Condoms are no longer an issue?
Tell that to the countless people who have died from aids in Africa due to the Catholic churches official stance against any condom use.

As for gay people, the church is still fully against marriage equality. Any softening shown in the popes words were forced by the change in world view towards gay people..

The church did not lead this change, they were forced into this change because the alternative option is to be a bigoted organisation... Which of course they still are anyway so go figure.

Cabaal

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

How do we know it's arheists who did this.

Nobody does, it could just as likely have been a pissed of Catholic, protestant, Muslim, scientology, Mormon etc

Maybe it's just a local who had an axe to grind with one of the land owners or the local priest. Who knows.

Could have also been metal fatigue