Please Remove Incitement To Hatred From Site

Brown Bomber

I've been through the proper channels: reported post >>> contacted mods >>> contacted CMods >>> Told to come here.

I am going to be direct here because I am likely to be site banned and I have no interest in getting involved in drawn-out arguments, or any argument at all with people trying to convince me black is white when the reality is staring us all in the eyes.

This is a final attempt to end this amicably.

This is what happened:

I reported this post for incitement to hatred against a minority group in Ireland.

The whole post is overflowing with vitriol and hatred against Muslims but this excerpt is especially dangerous (my emphasis):

But they (ISIS) come from the same source as you (a Muslim), devotion to Allah, the Koran etc. They exist because you exist. By your unquestioning devotion to a book that contains such fascistic exhortations to impose islam with the sword, as has been quoted on this thread, you allow these murderers to exist. You are from the same philosophical family.

As should be made clear from the text he/she is pushing the false idea that ISIS and their catalogue of crimes against humanity "exist" because Muslims exist. Equating regular people in our society who are part of a minority group with sadists, rapists, torturers, beheaders and murderers is a clear case of inciting hatred against that group.

We live in times when a Muslim student can be brutally murdered, stabbed 16 times in a frenzy attack because she was wearing a hijab. Moreover, an Exeter University study has shown that committers of hate crimes against innocent Muslims have been inspired to do so through the media publishing the same anti-Muslim canards as the post I reported and which has been condoned by the site.

It was with this is mind that I concluded that if the site must insist on condoning hate speech that I will have to report to hotline.ie and let them deal with it.

Internet users should be aware however that it also deals with a wide range of other
illegal content to be found on the internet including:
• financial scams,
• “phishing”,
• incitement to violence,
• and the promotion of racial hatred.
Where content is deemed to be illegal Hotline will trace the source and jurisdiction of
the material. A detailed report is then prepared and forwarded to the appropriate legal
body in the relevant jurisdiction so that action can be taken.
Today I want to publicly call on any citizens who finds any trace of suspect activities
be it when browsing web pages, or on “file sharing”, web forums, chat rooms
newsgroups or whatever, to report it to Hotline.ie immediately.
http://www.hotline.ie/5threport/documents/5thRep-ministerSpeech.pdf

Types of illegal content that should be reported...

child pornography
child grooming activities
child sex tourism
child trafficking
Note: The main focus of the Hotline is content which may be illegal under the Irish Child Trafficking and Pornography Act (1998).Under this Act it is illegal for anyone to knowingly possess child pornography. It is also illegal to knowingly print, publish, import, export, manufacture or distribute child pornography. In this Act “child” means a person under the age of 17 years old.

racism and xenophobia
incitement to hatred
Note: In these cases the Hotline refers to the Irish Prohibition of Incitement to Hatred Act, 1989. Under this Act it is an offence for a person to distribute, publish, behave, display written material, words, behaviour, visual images or sounds if they are threatening, abusive or insulting and are intended or are likely to stir up hatred.
http://www.hotline.ie/whatyoucanreport.php

I am prepared to give you 24 hours to remove the hate speech, before I report it, the longer it remains the more damage is likely to do.

Thanks for your time.

One eyed Jack

A complaint about incitement to hatred against the Muslim community in Ireland, posted by a user calling themselves "Brown Bomber"...


Really?

Brown Bomber

One eyed Jack wrote: »

A complaint about incitement to hatred against the Muslim community in Ireland, posted by a user calling themselves "Brown Bomber"...


Really?

Ignore xenophobia with further xenophobia. Beautiful. Please don't waste my time any further.

El Guapo!

I'm just baffled as to why you insist on hanging around this site if you seem to hate it so much. You have a clear vendetta against the site and against the people who run it. Why not just close your account?

One eyed Jack

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Ignore xenophobia with further xenophobia. Beautiful. Please don't waste my time any further.

You're choosing to misrepresent my opinion there, and in doing so, trivialising the very real issue of xenophobia in this country, in pretty much the same way as you're misrepresenting that posters opinion to make a claim of incitement to hatred based on what you perceive to be a xenophobic comment. It's not, and all you're doing, like I said, is trivialising the very real issue of xenophobia.

I do hope you're not banned so that you can report back on how you got on, but IMO you're wasting people's time with this nonsense.

Brown Bomber

El Guapo! wrote: »

I'm just baffled as to why you insist on hanging around this site if you seem to hate it so much. You have a clear vendetta against the site and against the people who run it. Why not just close your account?

And I am baffled why the site would condone incitement to hatred; contrary to the laws of the land.

Under the Incitement to Hatred Act 1989, it is an offence, inter alia, to use words, publish or distribute written material, or broadcast any visual images or sounds which are threatening, abusive or insulting and are intended, or, having regard to all the circumstances, are likely to stir up hatred. The word “hatred” is defined as “hatred against a group of persons in the State or elsewhere on account of their race, colour, nationality, religion, ethnic or national origins, membership of the travelling community or sexual orientation”.

http://www.integration.ie/Website/omi/omiwebv6.nsf/page/AXBN-9B2LU91733429-en

Turtwig

The site DOES NOT condone incitement to hatred. Nor do the Mods or CMods.
The local forum mods took the opinion that the opinion expressed by that poster was not in any way in contravention of the local forum charter or site rules. I suspect the Cmods, admins and practically everyone else takes that opinion too.

Simply put you are applying meaning and intentions to a member's post that are not there.

Brown Bomber

One eyed Jack wrote: »

You're choosing to misrepresent my opinion there,

Doubt it. You wouldn't be the first here equate Brown (skinned) and Bomber (the anti-Muslim terrorist stereotype) and get Muslim. It's all good though, Muslims are the low hanging fruit, you can abuse them as much as you want and get away with it.

Dravokivich

Could you not just challenge the other person regarding how foolish their comment was? From what I see its arrogance and is displayed in many ways through out this website. I don't quite get where you get the incitement angle either from the snippet you quoted directly, its a stubborn ill informed opinion.

Brown Bomber

Turtwig wrote: »

The site DOES NOT condone incitement to hatred. Nor do the Mods or CMods.
The local forum mods took the opinion that the opinion expressed by that poster was not in any way in contravention of the local forum charter or site rules. I suspect the Cmods, admins and practically everyone else takes that opinion too.

Simply put you are applying meaning and intentions to a member's post that are not there.

Nothing personal against you but I will listen to you just once on how equating all Muslims, by virtue of being Muslim, with barbaric rapists and murderers is NOT incitement to hatred according the the act, when:

Under the Incitement to Hatred Act 1989, it is an offence, inter alia, to use words, ...which are threatening, abusive or insulting and are intended, or, having regard to all the circumstances, are likely to stir up hatred. The word “hatred” is defined as “hatred against a group of persons in the State or elsewhere on account ...religion

Turtwig

As I said to your in the PM.

Your logic flows as follows.
X was Y.
ergo, all Y are X.

The poster expressed his opinion that ISIS are muslims and share a common philosophical family. He's perfectly entitled to do that. Stating so, does not mean s/he is saying all Muslims are equivalent to ISIS in every single way. It's very clear from his/her posts on boards that he acknowledges that your average muslim is generally very different to a member of ISIS.

I'd also ask you to consider whether by your own criteria for incitement to hatred stating ISIS aren't muslims is inciting a group self identifying as 'Islamic' to hatred?

One eyed Jack

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Doubt it. You wouldn't be the first here equate Brown (skinned) and Bomber (the anti-Muslim terrorist stereotype) and get Muslim. It's all good though, Muslims are the low hanging fruit, you can abuse them as much as you want and get away with it.

Actually I find your efforts to point out xenophobia where it doesn't exist are doing far more damage to ethnic and religious relations in this country, and my sister who is a milky skinned, ginger haired convert to Islam would tend to agree with my opinion.

Your username is a far more obvious assumption of stereotypical xenophobia than the assumptions you make about that posters opinion being considered an example of xenophobia.

To extend your analogy - if Muslims are the low hanging fruit, you're using the olive branch to stir the manure that fertilises xenophobia.

How do you like them apples?

Brown Bomber

Dravokivich wrote: »

Could you not just challenge the other person regarding how foolish their comment was? From what I see its arrogance and is displayed in many ways through out this website. I don't quite get where you get the incitement angle either from the snippet you quoted directly, its a stubborn ill informed opinion.

I agree in the main. It is my understanding of the act that there is a prima facie case there, the experts can decide for themselves, it would be with regret that I reported my suspicion as I don't want to get anyone into trouble. Let me tell you, I volunteer part-time in a language school with immigrants and refugees and Muslims make up the majority of the students, I talk to them, get to know them, they are good poeple but they are getting a horrendous time because of this kind of ignorance. This kind of obsessive hatred and suspicion against Muslims has become the norm and is sadly socially acceptable, but not to me.

Boards is an influential mainstream site, it should not tolerate such hatred against minorities.

Brown Bomber

Turtwig wrote: »

As I said to your in the PM.

Your logic flows as follows.
X was Y.
ergo, all Y are X.

The poster expressed his opinion that ISIS are muslims and share a common philosophical family. He's perfectly entitled to do that. Stating so, does not mean s/he is saying all Muslims are equivalent to ISIS in every single way. It's very clear from his/her posts on boards that he acknowledges that your average muslim is generally very different to a member of ISIS.

I'd also ask you to consider whether by your own criteria for incitement to hatred stating ISIS aren't muslims is inciting a group self identifying as 'Islamic' to hatred?

OK, your response isn't good enough. You have completely ignored " you allow these murderers to exist.". You meaning me and every other Muslim. I'd like you to explain that with Xs and Ys.

Brown Bomber

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Actually I find your efforts to point out xenophobia where it doesn't exist are doing far more damage to ethnic and religious relations in this country, and my sister who is a milky skinned, ginger haired convert to Islam would tend to agree with my opinion.

Your username is a far more obvious assumption of stereotypical xenophobia than the assumptions you make about that posters opinion being considered an example of xenophobia.

To extend your analogy - if Muslims are the low hanging fruit, you're using the olive branch to stir the manure that fertilises xenophobia.

How do you like them apples?

RDM_83 again

One eyed Jack wrote: »

A complaint about incitement to hatred against the Muslim community in Ireland, posted by a user calling themselves "Brown Bomber"...


Really?

Its a boxing reference I presume

Its not incitement to hatred really though? Is it a lazy and mildly offensive argument yes,
Is it evidence of the massive hypocrisy of Boards users, yes since at least of 4 of those that thanked that post get extremely disgruntled if that exactly this argument is used to bash feminism. So thanks for the link

Personal advice to you, don't bother reading A&A, its moderation is more similar to pre 2010-2011 Boards than most other forums IMO and its not worth the hassle arguing about it, or if you do read it (because there is some good threads occasionally) just remember its more of a social/group type forum than strictly debate, I'd recommend you try Humanities or Anthropology TBH

Brown Bomber

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Its a boxing reference I presume

Its not incitement to hatred really though? Is it a lazy and mildly offensive argument yes,
Is it evidence of the massive hypocrisy of Boards users, yes since at least of 4 of those that thanked that post get extremely disgruntled if that exactly this argument is used to bash feminism. So thanks for the link

Personal advice to you, don't bother reading A&A, its moderation is more similar to pre 2010-2011 Boards than most other forums IMO and its not worth the hassle arguing about it, or if you do read it (because there is some good threads occasionally) just remember its more of a social/group type forum than strictly debate, I'd recommend you try Humanities or Anthropology TBH

Thanks for the tip, glad I could be of some use. Best all round if I closed my account I think. I would like to get this sorted one way or the other first though if I can.

Ken.

I don't like whats said in the muslim forum, guess what, I stay out of there.
I don't like whats said in the christianity forum, guess what, I stay out of there.
I don't like whats said in the conspircy forum, guess what, I stay out of there.
I don't like whats said in a good few forums, guess what, well I'm sure you can guess by now.

Turtwig

Brown Bomber wrote: »

OK, your response isn't good enough. You have completely ignored " you allow these murderers to exist.". You meaning me and every other Muslim. I'd like you to explain that with Xs and Ys.

That choice of wording wasn't great but that's why we don't use quotes to determine meaning (unless we're lazy ass journalists). Meaning comes from context. In the context of what was written in his entire post it's quite clear that you misunderstood the post and drew a false equivalence.

His/her point was in response to your post about ISIS not being muslim. He refuted that claim. Then expressed his opinion that the Koran is a potential source of malevolence. Again, an opinion he is entitled to expressed. Just as you are entitled to claim any ideology has potential for amorality e.g. atheism and Mao, Pol Pot.

Again, I find myself asking why isn't your claim that ISIS aren't muslims considered incitement to hatred?

Brown Bomber

Turtwig wrote: »

That choice of wording wasn't great but that's why we don't use quotes to determine meaning (unless we're lazy ass journalists). Meaning comes from context. In the context of what was written in his entire post it's quite clear that you misunderstood the post and drew a false equivalence.

His/her point was in response to your post about ISIS not being muslim. He refuted that claim. Then expressed his opinion that the Koran is a potential source of malevolence. Again, an opinion he is entitled to expressed. Just as you are entitled to claim any ideology has potential for amorality e.g. atheism and Mao, Pol Pot.

Again, I find myself asking why isn't your claim that ISIS aren't muslims considered incitement to hatred?

First of all, I never made that claim and don't know where you've got this false information from.

If you want context we can take the sentence in full:

By your unquestioning devotion to a book that contains such fascistic exhortations to impose islam with the sword, as has been quoted on this thread, you allow these murderers to exist.

"By your unquestioning devotion to a book that contains such fascistic exhortations to impose islam with the sword, as has been quoted on this thread" = By being Muslim

"you allow these murderers to exist." You (and every other Muslim) are no better and are essentially the same than these brutal murderers.

Therefore you and the rest of your murderous minority group deserve hate <<<< There is your incitement.

---

I didn't want to get involved in these kinds of arguments. I've said all I had to say, I am prepared to let the experts investigate and form their own independent conclusions, though I hope it doesn't come to that.

Turtwig

You quoted someone saying ISIS is not Islam. Islam is peace. Figson responded to that claim.

I apologise if you do not agree with that claim you quoted. I'd assumed that was why you quoted it. In any case whoever it was made by, figson responded to the claim that ISIS is not Islam. He's perfectly entitled to do so.

His quote could be put another way "If Islam didn't exist, would ISIS?". Again, an opinion he's entitled to express. In the same way folks are allowed to claim ISIS is not Islamic.

degrassinoel

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Best all round if I closed my account I think.

Hope that's sarcasm, i'd miss ye BB

One eyed Jack

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Mmmhmm, good luck explaining that to hotline.ie or whoever, when you tell them your own username is Brown Bomber and you'd like to make a complaint about incitement to hatred against Muslims on Boards.

Any chance of a sound cloud recording of the call, please?

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I didn't want to get involved in these kinds of arguments. I've said all I had to say, I am prepared to let the experts investigate and form their own independent conclusions, though I hope it doesn't come to that.

I don't believe you for a minute tbh. You're practically a regular in Feedback complaining about something or other in one specific forum that seems to be nothing more than pettiness on your behalf, and I personally think you've been shown an unusual amount of leniency for your frivolous complaints.

I can't honestly imagine how you think making blatant threats in an attempt to bring the site into disrepute could possibly be seen as you "hoping it doesn't come to that". I'm referring to your threat in the OP btw, this one -

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I am prepared to give you 24 hours to remove the hate speech, before I report it, the longer it remains the more damage is likely to do.

Thanks for your time.

Brown Bomber

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Mmmhmm, good luck explaining that to hotline.ie or whoever, when you tell them your own username is Brown Bomber and you'd like to make a complaint about incitement to hatred against Muslims on Boards.

Any chance of a sound cloud recording of the call, please?





I don't believe you for a minute tbh. You're practically a regular in Feedback complaining about something or other in one specific forum that seems to be nothing more than pettiness on your behalf, and I personally think you've been shown an unusual amount of leniency for your frivolous complaints.

I can't honestly imagine how you think making blatant threats in an attempt to bring the site into disrepute could possibly be seen as you "hoping it doesn't come to that". I'm referring to your threat in the OP btw, this one -

I only couldn't care less what your personal opinions of me are, and I am not sure what your problem is with people reporting suspected crimes.

There will be no call. You report from here:https://www.hotline.ie/makeareport.php and you needn't worry about the username I shall be using my real name.

Brown Bomber

:pac:

degrassinoel wrote: »

Hope that's sarcasm, i'd miss ye BB

No point flogging a dead horse, think I'll be pushed before I jump though, which is fine, prejudice against minorities is of far greater concern to me than access to a site that publishes these prejudices.

Probably be the kiss of death but now is a good opportunity for me to tell you that in my opinion you are hands down the best mod I've seen on boards, so keep on doing what you've been doing.

One eyed Jack

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I only couldn't care less what your personal opinions of me are, and I am not sure what your problem is with people reporting suspected crimes.

There will be no call. You report from here:https://www.hotline.ie/makeareport.php and you needn't worry about the username I shall be using my real name.

Just to make one thing crystal clear - I never expressed any judgment of you at all, I was referring to your posts, and based on your posts I gave my personal opinion that I don't believe your opinion is a true representation of the facts.

I have no issue at all with anyone reporting what they perceive to be a civil or criminal offence. I do have an issue however with people's time being taken up investigating trivial nonsense.

Other than your wasting people's time and your attempting to make an issue from nothing, I say fire ahead, and don't forget to report back!

robindch

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Equating regular people in our society who are part of a minority group with sadists, rapists, torturers, beheaders and murderers is a clear case of inciting hatred against that group.

To what Turtwig has already said -- which closes this issue for me -- I would add that the only angry fist-waving seems to be coming from your excellent self.

Everybody else seems quite unworried by the post so your belief that hatred is being incited, beyond you, is untrue.

degrassinoel

Look BB, hold off on doing anything rash - disregard the attacks you've read on this thread and i think you might find that the boards mods and Cmods and admins etc. are where i learned to mod from - they genuinely are decent people and do take feedback constructively.

I am not an authority on the actual issue and any contribution i add would be flawed by lack of knowledge on the subject, so i'll leave that to the people that do know.
However the demand in your post and 24 hour ultimatum of resolution might need to be presented less aggressively considering the nature of this specific forum on boards.ie.

You have every right to present evidence of a crime to the proper authorities and if you feel you should, you should.

Personally speaking, i've always thought you were a reasonable person and by that i mean willing to listen to reason as well as argue it.

So, i'll appeal to your reason - boards.ie wouldn't allow a crime of inciting hatred remain unchecked publicly on this site. The issue to me is a complex one due to it's wording and subject and the user may not have meant for it to sound as it may seem - give boards the benefit of the doubt and let them sort it out and get back to you on this thread. By giving them/us an ultimatum you're putting boards in a position where you account is at risk more than the actual issue is of being resolved.

Think it over anyway BB - would hate to see you gone

Laura Palmer

ken wrote: »

I don't like whats said in the muslim forum, guess what, I stay out of there.
I don't like whats said in the christianity forum, guess what, I stay out of there.
I don't like whats said in the conspircy forum, guess what, I stay out of there.
I don't like whats said in a good few forums, guess what, well I'm sure you can guess by now.

What if someone's interested in those topics though? "Stay out of there" is a cop-out IMO.

Turtwig

Brown Bomber wrote: »

:pac:

No point flogging a dead horse, think I'll be pushed before I jump though, which is fine, prejudice against minorities is of far greater concern to me than access to a site that publishes these prejudices.

Probably be the kiss of death but now is a good opportunity for me to tell you that in my opinion you are hands down the best mod I've seen on boards, so keep on doing what you've been doing.

Well I'm banning you from Christianity and Atheism and Agnosticism now. This is completely unrelated to my envy of the above post.

Brown Bomber

robindch wrote: »

To what Turtwig has already said -- which closes this issue for me -- I would add that the only angry fist-waving seems to be coming from your excellent self.

Everybody else seems quite unworried by the post so your belief that hatred is being incited outside the boundaries of your own conscience is quite clearly false.

I wouldn't expect anti-Muslim hate speech, or as you insist on calling them "islamics" to "worry" you as false, anti-Muslim statements such as "UK Muslims are more likely rape" go unpunished under your watch.

I don't think you are capable of an objective opinion on this. I trust that the legal experts who will be investigating the suspected incitement to hatred which you've ignored will be able to make an objective and informed decision one way or the other.