anti water protest on saturday @2pm

washman3

afro man wrote: »

vkid
good post ... i was a labour voter for many a year :mad: but never again I think we should call Sinn Fien's bluff and if they get voted in to power and don't deliver on promises then they are finished for future elections

Thankfully, Labour will be consigned to the dustbin of History very soon, joining the PDs and Greens. This country never needs to see, nor indeed deserves, the likes of these charletens again. Labour will win only 2 seats or 3 max next time round or maybe none at all. Then the likes of Burton and Kelly will automatically join whatever new party Lucinda Creighton comes up with.
I agree that we should call SFs bluff. If there's one thing these protest marches have showed is that we no longer need to wait for a General Election to get rid of a Government that has betrayed its people.
Maybe, just maybe they would make the hard calls this present Government were afraid to make..!!

Cookiemunster

jonski wrote: »

100,000 live in Limerick , what percentage of that are the bill payer ? and what percentage of that are actually people who would go out and march ? , I agree with you the 6000 isn't massive but , it is massive for a protest march in Limerick . I can't remember the last time I saw this many people protesting about anything .

As for the media's reporting of the figures , I think you can work that one out for yourself if you give it a bit of thought and you will be all the wiser for it , a hint is , it's to do with who owns it and who controls it

On the bolded bit. I know people who marched with their other halfs and kids. Even if there was 6000 there, there wasn't 6000 bill payers.

Who owns and controls the media? Well UTV own 95fm who reported 3000 marchers. The Leader until recently was also owned by a UK company Johnston Press. It is now part of the Iconic Newspapers group which while based in Ireland is owned by British man Malcolm Denmark. I don't see any agenda. Not every media source in this country is controled by Denis O'Brien.

Cookiemunster

washman3 wrote: »

Thankfully, Labour will be consigned to the dustbin of History very soon, joining the PDs and Greens. This country never needs to see, nor indeed deserves, the likes of these charletens again. Labour will win only 2 seats or 3 max next time round or maybe none at all. Then the likes of Burton and Kelly will automatically join whatever new party Lucinda Creighton comes up with.
I agree that we should call SFs bluff. If there's one thing these protest marches have showed is that we no longer need to wait for a General Election to get rid of a Government that has betrayed its people.
Maybe, just maybe they would make the hard calls this present Government were afraid to make..!!

What? They last time I checked the current government was still in power. And it will be until a general election is called.

washman3

washman3 wrote: »

Thankfully, Labour will be consigned to the dustbin of History very soon, joining the PDs and Greens. This country never needs to see, nor indeed deserves, the likes of these charletens again. Labour will win only 2 seats or 3 max next time round or maybe none at all. Then the likes of Burton and Kelly will automatically join whatever new party Lucinda Creighton comes up with.
I agree that we should call SFs bluff. If there's one thing these protest marches have showed is that we no longer need to wait for a General Election to get rid of a Government that has betrayed its people.
Maybe, just maybe they would make the hard calls this present Government were afraid to make..!!

How do you propose this without a General Election? Are you waiting for AAAs Revolution? What would that give us? A dictatorship. Whatever you think of FG/Lab, we've come a long way the last few years. I hope to Christ whoever gets in next doesn't waste it all.

jonski

Cookiemunster wrote: »

On the bolded bit. I know people who marched with their other halfs and kids. Even if there was 6000 there, there wasn't 6000 bill payers.

Who owns and controls the media? Well UTV own 95fm who reported 3000 marchers. The Leader until recently was also owned by a UK company Johnston Press. It is now part of the Iconic Newspapers group which while based in Ireland is owned by British man Malcolm Denmark. I don't see any agenda. Not every media source in this country is controled by Denis O'Brien.

Both fair points and even if I was a bit surprised to see everyone come up with the same figure I don't know of any reason for either of those two to manipulate them . Also , I don't know the actual figure myself and was only estimating going on the last march , to me the initial amount at city hall seemed smaller but the march itself seemed bigger .

washman3

Cookiemunster wrote: »

What? They last time I checked the current government was still in power. And it will be until a general election is called.

The point being that if we are unhappy with a government, people power will force them to call an election before their term is up, as will happen with this Government sometime next year IMO.
If SF enter power, people power will force them to perform or get the f##k out.
The days for bluffing and underperforming in Government will be history.
Think you understand my point full well but prefer to nit-pick.
Sigh of an institutionalised public servant maybe...;)

washman3

Deleted User wrote: »

How do you propose this without a General Election? Are you waiting for AAAs Revolution? What would that give us? A dictatorship. Whatever you think of FG/Lab, WE'VE come a long way the last few years. I hope to Christ whoever gets in next doesn't waste it all.

You need to define who the WE are..!!
Do you mean those in the comfort zone who have remained untouched by austerity.? Retired public servants who pension is more that what their replacements are paid.? Farmers who get 'entitlements' for SFA.? Private school fees for the children of the elite being massively subsidised by the taxpayer.? tax avoidance schemes for the same elite.? The list goes on.!

Any miniscule improvement we're seeing at the moment is by accident rather than by design, ie the trickle down effect of borrowed billions, rolled onto the previous billions.
Try telling the old woman whose blind pension was cut by €9 a week that 'we've come along way' or the 30+ people that spent the weekend on a trolley in Limerick Regional Hospital.

Cookiemunster

washman3 wrote: »

The point being that if we are unhappy with a government, people power will force them to call an election before their term is up, as will happen with this Government sometime next year IMO.
If SF enter power, people power will force them to perform or get the f##k out.
The days for bluffing and underperforming in Government will be history.
Think you understand my point full well but prefer to nit-pick.
Sigh of an institutionalised public servant maybe...

Again. What??? How does pointing out that you made an incorrect statement suddenly mean I'm a public servant? Do you honestly believe that public servants are happy with the government?

If you think that these protests are going to force a general election before the next budget, then you're mistaken. The only way this government will fall is if Labour pull out and they're not going to do that any time soon.

And for the record, I've never worked anywhere other than private industry.

phog

washman3 wrote: »

Thankfully, Labour will be consigned to the dustbin of History very soon, joining the PDs and Greens. This country never needs to see, nor indeed deserves, the likes of these charletens again. Labour will win only 2 seats or 3 max next time round or maybe none at all. Then the likes of Burton and Kelly will automatically join whatever new party Lucinda Creighton comes up with.
I agree that we should call SFs bluff. If there's one thing these protest marches have showed is that we no longer need to wait for a General Election to get rid of a Government that has betrayed its people.
Maybe, just maybe they would make the hard calls this present Government were afraid to make..!!

Can you explain how? Please.

Cookiemunster

washman3 wrote: »

You need to define who the WE are..!!
Do you mean those in the comfort zone who have remained untouched by austerity.? Retired public servants who pension is more that what their replacements are paid.? Farmers who get 'entitlements' for SFA.? Private school fees for the children of the elite being massively subsidised by the taxpayer.? tax avoidance schemes for the same elite.? The list goes on.!

Any miniscule improvement we're seeing at the moment is by accident rather than by design, ie the trickle down effect of borrowed billions, rolled onto the previous billions.
Try telling the old woman whose blind pension was cut by €9 a week that 'we've come along way' or the 30+ people that spent the weekend on a trolley in Limerick Regional Hospital.

How would you have plugged the €20Bn gap in the €70Bn budget that would still have been there even if the bond holders were burnt? Unpalatable choices had to be made. Nobody was going to be happy with the outcome. And remember that the top 24% of earners in this country already pay 80% of the total tax take, while the top 1% pay 21%.

Insect Overlord

washman3 wrote: »

The point being that if we are unhappy with a government, people power will force them to call an election before their term is up, as will happen with this Government sometime next year IMO.
If SF enter power, people power will force them to perform or get the f##k out.
The days for bluffing and underperforming in Government will be history.

That's a naive, idealistic point if I ever saw one. I'd be very, very surprised if anything like it happened in the next few years.

Mc Love

The funny thing is people think FG are the bad guys because they brought in taxes and cutbacks to try and recover the irish economy, yet people are baying for their blood.

If you've studied economics at any level, you'll know that there is a history of prosperous times followed by times of hardship and back to prosperous times again, it's a cycle. It just so happens FG are in the hard times part of the cycle and the irish people are ready to give power to some other party to do what exactly? What are people expecting SF or whoever else that comes into power do?
Stay the course, back the current government who are doing a tough job at pointing the county back in the right direction. They took over a sinking ship, plugged the holes and are starting to make this sinking ship float again.

Nothing good will be achieved by having another party come in and take over

vkid

Mc Love wrote: »

The funny thing is people think FG are the bad guys because they brought in taxes and cutbacks to try and recover the irish economy, yet people are baying for their blood.

If you've studied economics at any level, you'll know that there is a history of prosperous times followed by times of hardship and back to prosperous times again, it's a cycle. It just so happens FG are in the hard times part of the cycle and the irish people are ready to give power to some other party to do what exactly? What are people expecting SF or whoever else that comes into power do?
Stay the course, back the current government who are doing a tough job at pointing the county back in the right direction. They took over a sinking ship, plugged the holes and are starting to make this sinking ship float again.

Nothing good will be achieved by having another party come in and take over

See, the main problem I have with all that is, that FG promised a new way of doing things, a fairer way..new politics, reform etc etc. And they just haven't done any of it. They have been the same shleveen, gombeen, parish pumpers as FF before them. I voted for them, as did many based on the promise of something better and they have failed miserably in that regard.

Not many people expected the recovery or the road to recovery, to be a bed of roses..i know i didn't. I'm not even against the principle of water charges...however...
FG have made a complete hames of IW for example, and serious questions remain unanswered( and unasked by the media) about how certain companies were awarded contracts relating to Irish Water.
They have pushed their own people into places they have no business being, on to state boards all over the place, similarly the judiciary.
The way their appointed Ceann Comhairle behaves in the Dail is a joke...nothing more.
The way Phil Hogan, James Reilly, Shatter and others have behaved has been utterly shameful and the response from the rest of FG relating to those stories has been nothing short of disgraceful...usual party before everything else stuff.
and above all the behaviour of Enda Kenny, who will barely do an interview
Then the auction politics kicked off by FG in the last week is another indicator that absolutely nothing has changed...same old same old...just different people at the helm..

So Sorry if I don't buy the "great bunch of lads, doing the hard work to get the country back on tracks...t'was the other crowd wot did it." spiel... It just doesn't wash.

FG and Labour had a golden opportunity to do things differently, but sadly they chose to have their turn instead

washman3

Mc Love wrote: »

The funny thing is people think FG are the bad guys because they brought in taxes and cutbacks to try and recover the irish economy, yet people are baying for their blood.

If you've studied economics at any level, you'll know that there is a history of prosperous times followed by times of hardship and back to prosperous times again, it's a cycle. It just so happens FG are in the hard times part of the cycle and the irish people are ready to give power to some other party to do what exactly? What are people expecting SF or whoever else that comes into power do?
Stay the course, back the current government who are doing a tough job at pointing the county back in the right direction. They took over a sinking ship, plugged the holes and are starting to make this sinking ship float again.

Nothing good will be achieved by having another party come in and take over

Nobody could argue that they inherited an almighty mess on a scale virtually unseen anywhere in the world. The problem is the choices they made, the people they hit hardest, the people that remain unscathed. That's the issue. The swaggering arrogance of their TDs, which has now also rubbed off on their Labour counterparts. Attitudes like that clown Coonan from Tipp describing Protesters as similar to ISIS.
Feeding the people crumbs from borrowed billions is hardly 'pointing the country back in the right direction'

893bet

afro man wrote: »

so what is your alternative ? FF /FG again ?

Yes.

I think they have done a reasonable job of an impossibile task.

washman3

893bet wrote: »

Yes.

I think they have done a reasonable job of an impossibile task.

I honestly don't know whether to laugh or cry....:o

893bet

I don't know whether to laugh or cry at the fact most think Sinn Fein will be any different in government than the current government.

Sinn Fein pursue austerity and cut backs on the north and apparently are against this in the south.

washman3

So you would actually vote to put FF back in power..?? well Jesus wept..!!
These guys should never be allowed anywhere near a nations economy again.
At least I can see your point with FG, even though I don't agree with it.
Would you consider voting for a Reform Alliance let by somebody like Shane Ross with the likes of Stephen Donnelly,Peter Matthews and Roisin Shorthall on board. I certainly would. The only problem I would have is the inclusion of Lucinda Creighton, who was part of the rotten establishment that cheer-led austerity.

893bet

I want a FG lead government. With anyone but Sinn Fein. Would hate FF but would take them above SF.

Not a particular fan of any of the independent either or any parties they are trying to form.

Cookiemunster

washman3 wrote: »

So you would actually vote to put FF back in power..?? well Jesus wept..!!
These guys should never be allowed anywhere near a nations economy again.
At least I can see your point with FG, even though I don't agree with it.
Would you consider voting for a Reform Alliance let by somebody like Shane Ross with the likes of Stephen Donnelly,Peter Matthews and Roisin Shorthall on board. I certainly would. The only problem I would have is the inclusion of Lucinda Creighton, who was part of the rotten establishment that cheer-led austerity.

The Reform Alliance are not a party. They're a collection of independants. No coalition formed by the SF / Reform Alliance / other independants will last 6 months.

As for the the "rotten establishment that cheer-led austerity" comment. Please tell me how any government would have filled the €20bn gap in our €70bn budget with out resorting to austerity measures? And remember that €20bn gap appeared before an single cent was given over to bail out the banks. We still haven't filled that gap and we still had a deficit of €6bn last year. Thanks to this governments policies we're able to borrow that money at historically low interest rates.

phog

washman3 wrote: »

Thankfully, Labour will be consigned to the dustbin of History very soon, joining the PDs and Greens. This country never needs to see, nor indeed deserves, the likes of these charletens again. Labour will win only 2 seats or 3 max next time round or maybe none at all. Then the likes of Burton and Kelly will automatically join whatever new party Lucinda Creighton comes up with.
I agree that we should call SFs bluff. If there's one thing these protest marches have showed is that we no longer need to wait for a General Election to get rid of a Government that has betrayed its people.
Maybe, just maybe they would make the hard calls this present Government were afraid to make..!!

How do you think this might happen? Military coup?

washman3

phog wrote: »

How do you think this might happen? Military coup?

nobody suggesting military coup, we don't really have a 'military' anyway.
My point is, which you very well know but chose to nit-pick in typical smart-alec fashion, is that people power through protest can force a Government to call an election before the scheduled 5 year term of office. I'm of the opinion that this will happen next year. Maybe the Labour party will capitulate just like the Greens did which would result in them suffering the same fate,consigned to history, but with the elder members riding into the sunset with pensions that would envy filmstars.
The likes of Burton and Kelly would possibly join the Blueshirts to ensure their snouts would remain firmly in the trough.

Beaver1

I think there will be an election in May or June just after the mass non payment of this water tax.

Cookiemunster

Beaver1 wrote: »

I think there will be an election in May or June just after the mass non payment of this water tax.

I don't and I doubt the non payment will be as big as you believe.

Beaver1

Cookiemunster wrote: »

I don't and I doubt the non payment will be as big as you believe.

I doubt the figure they said have paid is actually as big as they believe either. plus it doesn't really matter to me Ill never pay it again as I'm paying it already

phog

washman3 wrote: »

nobody suggesting military coup, we don't really have a 'military' anyway.
My point is, which you very well know but chose to nit-pick in typical smart-alec fashion, is that people power through protest can force a Government to call an election before the scheduled 5 year term of office. I'm of the opinion that this will happen next year. Maybe the Labour party will capitulate just like the Greens did which would result in them suffering the same fate,consigned to history, but with the elder members riding into the sunset with pensions that would envy filmstars.
The likes of Burton and Kelly would possibly join the Blueshirts to ensure their snouts would remain firmly in the trough.

I wasn't being smart, it was a genuine question. The people have no power in dissolving the Dail.
The government can stick together as long as they have a majority. In fact the longer they stick together the better chance they have of seeing this country return to some decent growth in employment and disposable income.

I'm also of the view that FG, Labour and FF will do everything in their power to ensure SF will not be in government for the centenary of the Easter Rising.

BTW, talking of people power, how many of the electorate stayed at home from these Anti- Water Charges rallies?

washman3

phog wrote: »

I wasn't being smart, it was a genuine question. The people have no power in dissolving the Dail.
The government can stick together as long as they have a majority. In fact the longer they stick together the better chance they have of seeing this country return to some decent growth in employment and disposable income.

I'm also of the view that FG, Labour and FF will do everything in their power to ensure SF will not be in government for the centenary of the Easter Rising.

BTW, talking of people power, how many of the electorate stayed at home from these Anti- Water Charges rallies?

The Greens capitulated in the last Government, but agreed to stay on 'for the good of the country' They duly got what they deserved at election time.
Disposable income will only improve when the disgraceful USC is removed.
At the end of this year I will have paid a total of €25,000 to it despite the fact that I 'didn't party'.
FF/FG/LAB will unquestionably do whatever it takes to keep SF out of Government, not just for 2016, but forever. Which just proves the point that they're all cut from the same cloth. The old saying applies: power doesn't corrupt but the fear of losing it certainly does.
True, the % that stayed at home from the protest massively outweighs those who attended, but that is not the point. These protests are a totally new departure, 150-200k on Dublin's main thoroughfare is huge, as opposed to the few dozen headbangers that previously supported other issues. Just look at how the Government capitulated when the 'Grey Vote' took to the streets a few years ago. This has been noted.!!
Incidentally, if you are watching Prime Time on RTE1 just now you will see Dr.Ed Walshe pontificating on our education system. This guy is retired President of UL and get a pension of €93,000 per year. Would he ever want to see anything other than a FF/FG led Government. You can bet your bottom dollar that he wouldn't.
Highly unlikely that we will ever see him protesting either.;)

Cookiemunster

washman3 wrote: »

True, the % that stayed at home from the protest massively outweighs those who attended, but that is not the point. These protests are a totally new departure, 150-200k on Dublin's main thoroughfare is huge, as opposed to the few dozen headbangers that previously supported other issues. Just look at how the Government capitulated when the 'Grey Vote' took to the streets a few years ago.

The huge protests are not a new departure at all.

February 2009 100,000 protest against the pension levy.
November 2010 100,000 march in anti austerity protest.
February 2013 60,000 March in Dublin against bank debt, 110,000 nationwide.

They haven't however gotten rid of austerity, the pension levy or the bank debt.

washman3

Cookiemunster wrote: »

The huge protests are not a new departure at all.

February 2009 100,000 protest against the pension levy.
November 2010 100,000 march in anti austerity protest.
February 2013 60,000 March in Dublin against bank debt, 110,000 nationwide.

They haven't however gotten rid of austerity, the pension levy or the bank debt.

Anything post 2008 is a new departure. 100,000 is a huge amount for a nation with a population such as ours.
Are you honestly happy that the pension levy is in place? and that austerity is a 'good idea' or that tens of billions of other peoples debt is placed on the shoulders of the Irish taxpayer. If you are there is little or no hope for this country.!!

Cookiemunster

washman3 wrote: »

Anything post 2008 is a new departure. 100,000 is a huge amount for a nation with a population such as ours.
Are you honestly happy that the pension levy is in place? and that austerity is a 'good idea' or that tens of billions of other peoples debt is placed on the shoulders of the Irish taxpayer. If you are there is little or no hope for this country.!!

No I'm not happy. I am however realistic. For the 3rd time I'll ask you how you think the €20bn deficit in the €70bn budget was going to be plugged without savage cutbacks across board along with increase in taxes? Remembering that the €20bn shortfall was in the day to day budget for running the country before a cent was put into the banks.
The current govenment have actually done a very well with the hand they were dealt. Maybe the could have done better, but there is no way the pie in the sky policies of SF and the far left would have gotten us out of the mess.