False advertising for Schnauzer pups

tony54

I travelled from Dublin to Cork on Sept 21st to pick up a Miniature Schnauzer puppy which was advertised as registered. I paid €600.........very expensive for a Miniature Schnauzer. I was told that the registration papers would follow and I left my details. To date I have not received the papers and after several texts and calls, and getting Donedeal to intervene, the seller has admitted that the pups are NOT registered.Any have a similar experience or even advice as to what my next course of action might be?
Copy of original ad below. Thanks, Tony
Details

Wonderful pepper / salt puppy available for sale. Left 1 boy & 1 girl. 12weeks. 5 generations of pedigree Champion Bloodlines. The parents are show dogs. Mother exported from Russia, father from Latvia. Very good movement, excellent arsh coat, great temperament. Non-shed, hypo allergenic, easy to keep coat make, them ideal family pets.The best companion for any age. Schnauzers are highly intelligent which makes them very easy to train. Fully vaccinated , eye test, Microchipped , wormed,IKC reg. Puppies are already paper trained. Small deposit will secure pup, ready to go. phone number <snip> ( after 4 pm) <snip> (text any time)

cocker5

tony54 wrote: »

I travelled from Dublin to Cork on Sept 21st to pick up a Miniature Schnauzer puppy which was advertised as registered. I paid €600.........very expensive for a Miniature Schnauzer. I was told that the registration papers would follow and I left my details. To date I have not received the papers and after several texts and calls, and getting Donedeal to intervene, the seller has admitted that the pups are NOT registered.Any have a similar experience or even advice as to what my next course of action might be?
Copy of original ad below. Thanks, Tony
Details

Wonderful pepper / salt puppy available for sale. Left 1 boy & 1 girl. 12weeks. 5 generations of pedigree Champion Bloodlines. The parents are show dogs. Mother exported from Russia, father from Latvia. Very good movement, excellent arsh coat, great temperament. Non-shed, hypo allergenic, easy to keep coat make, them ideal family pets.The best companion for any age. Schnauzers are highly intelligent which makes them very easy to train. Fully vaccinated , eye test, Microchipped , wormed,IKC reg. Puppies are already paper trained. Small deposit will secure pup, ready to go. phone number <snip> ( after 4 pm) <snip> (text any time)

Unfortunately OP there's nothing you can do, your another victim of the backyard / puppy farmers that done deal is full of!

Do you mind if I ask why did you buy from dondeal and not a reputable breeder in the first place?

All you have to do is Google how dreadful dondeal - adverts - etc are!

Nothing you can do, the breeder must register pups etc.

Learn your lesson and move on I'm afraid!

DBB

I'm not going to wax lyrical about the perils of buying on Dondeal, as there's so much already available to read about it.
OP, if your pup had the lineage claimed by the breeder, €600 would be about the lower end of what you'd expect to pay.
But it is a lot to pay for an unregistered puppy, you were stung, big time.
However, I'm not so sure that you have no recourse. If the shyster you bought the pup from won't reimburse you to reflect that you bought an unregistered pup (I suppose one would expect to pay somewhere around the €300 mark), it might be an option for you to go to the Small Claims Court. Have a goosey at their website, and the good people on our Legal Discussion forum may be able to advise too, although they cannot give specific legal advice.

Link to small claims court:
http://www.courts.ie/Courts.ie/library3.nsf/pagecurrent/781D7D5227918A618025715C004CAEF3?opendocument

braddun

small claims court

andreac

What's the reason why they won't register them?

DBB

andreac wrote: »

What's the reason why they won't register them?

I wondered that too... OP if the parents are registered, then the pups could still be reg'd by the breeder... But I'm wondering if it's that one or both parents aren't actually registered at all.
Andreac, as a matter of interest, is there extra paperwork or expense to register pups with the IKC that are the offspring of parents from different country's kennel clubs?

andreac

Em. I can't think what's involved but I think once both parents are registered in their original country then they can be registered by obtaining an export pedigree or something.

Not 100% but there shouldn't be an issue registering pups but there might be an extra cost to do something with the parents so maybe they don't want to do that as it's another cost.

ACD

As far as I know, the mother has to be IKC registered in order for the pups to get papers, I don't think they could register an offspring of a bitch that is registered in another country. If she was registered in her original country, you can apply for an export pedigree as Andreac said and then have her transferred to IKC. But I'd assume it would have to be done before the litter was born, but I could be wrong. The transfer is not that expensive, the export pedigree was 40 Euro (from Czech rep.) and the IKC reg 25 Euro if I remember correctly.

aaakev

braddun wrote: »

small claims court

Small claims court is for bringing a case against a business, not a private individual selling pups on done deal

ferretone

aaakev wrote: »

Small claims court is for bringing a case against a business, not a private individual selling pups on done deal

But surely the individual was selling them "in the course of business" ie. to earn money from them? How exactly does this make any difference if they aren't a registered business? I can't find anywhere that it says they have to be.

In fact, this clause "In making a claim you must be sure of the name and address of the person or company against whom you want to make a claim," seems definitely to imply that it can be invoked against an individual too. Just querying whether you have further professional information which would counter this?

hfallada

Maybe the dogs were registered as you can only register 3 letters with the IKC per Bitch AFAIK. The breeder may have already gotten 3 litters from her.

Nody

ferretone wrote: »

But surely the individual was selling them "in the course of business" ie. to earn money from them? How exactly does this make any difference if they aren't a registered business? I can't find anywhere that it says they have to be.

In fact, this clause "In making a claim you must be sure of the name and address of the person or company against whom you want to make a claim," seems definitely to imply that it can be invoked against an individual too. Just querying whether you have further professional information which would counter this?

Sorry but private sale is private; if I sell a phone I'm doing it to make a profit but that does not make me a business as far as SCC is concerned. The claims SCC allow are:

(a) a claim for goods or services bought for private use from someone selling them in the course of a business (consumer claims)

(b) a claim for goods or services bought for business use from someone selling them in the course of a business (business claims)

(c) a claim for minor damage to property (but excluding personal injuries)

(d) a claim for the non-return of a rent deposit for certain kinds of rented properties. For example, a holiday home or a room / flat in a premises where the owner also lives provided that a claim does not exceed €2,000.

C and D relates to claiming from a person and not a company; hence the wording you read. The only way you can get it to be a business would be to show a long history of selling pups and even that would be hard to prove that it was done for profit.

Dozen Wicked Words

Off topic possibly but these sellers should presumably be declaring the sales to revenue? Perhaps a mention to the seller you may just forward his name to the tax man. Or would that be going too far?

Puppy farms are an abomination, those that run them have no shame.

DBB

To those of you who understand these things better than I, if the SCC isn't an option, is buying from an individual (non-business) always case of caveat emptor? Or in this case has the op any recourse under consumer legislation due to them having some proof that the seller misled them deliberately?

salamanca22

DBB wrote: »

To those of you who understand these things better than I, if the SCC isn't an option, is buying from an individual (non-business) always case of caveat emptor? Or in this case has the op any recourse under consumer legislation due to them having some proof that the seller misled them deliberately?

Usually, yes it is always caveat emptor except in cases where the consumer is deliberately misled like in this cause. The usual name for it is fraud

Fraud is a deception deliberately practiced in order to secure unfair or unlawful gain
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraud

DBB

salamanca22 wrote: »

Usually, yes it is always caveat emptor except in cases where the consumer is deliberately misled like in this cause. The usual name for it is fraud

Fraud is a deception deliberately practiced in order to secure unfair or unlawful gain
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraud

Thank you
I assume, even though the op has a case, that they're looking at what could be a pricey civil action? Though one would assume they'd have costs awarded in their favour, it's still pricey compared to the loss incurred... And awarding of costs can go in odd directions sometimes?

salamanca22

DBB wrote: »

Thank you
I assume, even though the op has a case, that they're looking at what could be a pricey civil action? Though one would assume they'd have costs awarded in their favour, it's still pricey compared to the loss incurred... And awarding of costs can go in odd directions sometimes?

Fraud is actually a criminal offence and if the OP would like to make a statement to the gardai then they may very well investigate.

Say the breeder sold an average litter of about 6 puppies under the same false pretenses as the one sold to the op. Now say that the puppies are monetarily only worth 50% without the papers (Horrible thing to say about a puppy, I know) that is €300 euro * 6 = 1800 euro. A considerable amount to defraud people by and the gardai would be very interested to hear about it.

Here is the branch of the gardai that deal with fraud.
http://www.garda.ie/Controller.aspx?Page=29

The op can take civil action against the seller too but not in small claims court and yes, at considerable expense.

Nody

salamanca22 wrote: »

Fraud is actually a criminal offence and if the OP would like to make a statement to the gardai then they may very well investigate.

Say the breeder sold an average litter of about 6 puppies under the same false pretenses as the one sold to the op. Now say that the puppies are monetarily only worth 50% without the papers (Horrible thing to say about a puppy, I know) that is €300 euro * 6 = 1800 euro. A considerable amount to defraud people by and the gardai would be very interested to hear about it.

Here is the branch of the gardai that deal with fraud.
http://www.garda.ie/Controller.aspx?Page=29

Honestly I doubt they would give a damn; there are plenty of examples with clear cut 100% fraud cases with car sales (i.e. paying in 5k to get a car delivered that never arrives) and once they taken the details down nothing else happens. The only reason they would care is if they are out to nail said person and this adds to the evidence but low level fraud as this is pretty much ignored.

The op can take civil action against the seller too but not in small claims court and yes, at considerable expense.

Not only that even if they do get a judgement against the person good luck getting it enforced in general.

cocker5

Im going to be honest and say the Guards have enough to be doing at the moment than investigating this type of thing. I mean come on. It’s hardly important, crimes like rape, murder etc. that where their time should be spent not on mickey mouse things like this.
He probably should have paid €300 / €350 for the pup taking into consideration it’s a non reg but he paid €600, yes it’s not right but its buyer beware.

It’s no different from buying say like a bike from Adverts saying in good working order then a week later the wheel s falls off…. your placing your trust in the seller and a lot of the times you shouldn’t, im not saying it’s right or anything but its reality.

The OP didn’t do his / her research, unfortunate he got stung, its crap I agree but in my opinion not much recourse etc. He purchased from a dodgy website from a not so nice person… it happens EVERY day of the week, a lot of people are NOT honest and other just gullible.

IF he went through the correct channels ie IKC, got a breeder from their website and THEN the breeder didn’t register the pups after claiming they were then that would be a different kettle of fish.

salamanca22

cocker5 wrote: »

Im going to be honest and say the Guards have enough to be doing at the moment than investigating this type of thing. I mean come on. It’s hardly important, crimes like rape, murder etc. that where their time should be spent not on mickey mouse things like this.
He probably should have paid €300 / €350 for the pup taking into consideration it’s a non reg but he paid €600, yes it’s not right but its buyer beware.

It’s no different from buying say like a bike from Adverts saying in good working order then a week later the wheel s falls off…. your placing your trust in the seller and a lot of the times you shouldn’t, im not saying it’s right or anything but its reality.

The OP didn’t do his / her research, unfortunate he got stung, its crap I agree but in my opinion not much recourse etc. He purchased from a dodgy website from a not so nice person… it happens EVERY day of the week, a lot of people are NOT honest and other just gullible.

IF he went through the correct channels ie IKC, got a breeder from their website and THEN the breeder didn’t register the pups after claiming they were then that would be a different kettle of fish.

Trivialising white/blue collar crime is not the way to go and only leads to facilitating this type of scumbaggery.

The department that deals with fraud is not the same department that would deal with rape or murder so there is no "time wasted" as you put it.

Fraud was committed. It is a crime and should be reported. It is then up to the gardai on what to do from there.

cocker5

salamanca22 wrote: »

Trivialising white/blue collar crime is not the way to go and only leads to facilitating this type of scumbaggery.

The department that deals with fraud is not the same department that would deal with rape or murder so there is no "time wasted" as you put it.

Fraud was committed. It is a crime and should be reported. It is then up to the gardai on what to do from there.

I never meant to trivialise fraud or the current situation, the area of dog breeding is not regulated so very hard to investigated is all I am saying. it’s his word against the breeders – how can he prove he actually paid €600 unless it was a cheque?
the breeder could say he only paid €300 cash and was verbally told the pups couldn’t be registered – that’s my point it’s not black and white it’s a grey area – that’s all

Also on a side note maybe the fact that breeder gets cash for the pups should also be reported to the revenue? Im sure its undeclared income they would love to know about all the additional income.

All I am saying is IMO the OP bought foolishly from a dodgy website and unfortunately got stung – not nice at all

daUbiq

I'd recommend the revenue route - he's making profit and not paying tax on it - this person f**cked you over. 600 euros is a lot of money... or <snip>! Karma's a bitch.

DaUbiq, whilst I know your post was tongue-in-cheek, advocating violence towards man or beast is not permitted in this forum, even in jest.
Thanks,
DBB

tk123

cocker5 wrote: »

All I am saying is IMO the OP bought foolishly from a dodgy website and unfortunately got stung – not nice at all[/FONT]

There's a garda initiative for online buying/scams/fraud atm so the are taking it seriously. Granted it's a pup and not and ipad but in this case they're the same price. The interview I heard on the radio said to report it so I would..

http://gometro.ie/2014/11/crimestoppers-urge-public-to-be-wary-of-online-christmas-fraud/

Mr_Red

OP

Did you actually see the papers from the parents of the pup?

as they are show dogs, the would both have papers with there show dog names

Ashbx

I will admit I got my first dog on done deal but refused to take the dog until I met both parents. I emailed a few people who wouldn't oblige so they were immediately disregarded.

I got to go to the house of people selling the pups where I got my dog. Met the other puppies and parents. The family told me the story of how the dogs ended up pregnant. I wasn't looking for a show dog or anything like that so I didn't need to have champ parents etc. I went back and contacted them three days later and told them I would take the dog...I felt I could make the decision for myself then.

My rule of thumb for donedeal is NEVER to give a deposit in advance and if they are charging a fair bit for the dog, and is not a reputable dealer...something is definitely fishy here. Another thing is if they are very eager to get rid of the dog, its defo dodgy too! I think reputable breeders really take a pride in their litter and their breed and do not want to give the dog to anyone. I think a breeder should be just as curious as a potential buyer is and is asking equally as many questions!

I don't know what you can do about the situation. I think it could be a case of lesson learned here!

tony54

Yes indeed I think I have to put it down to experience! I did drive to Cork(from Dublin) and saw the puppies and what i hope was their parents. The seller is a true con artist. I do love the dog, she is great. Im just going to have to let go of it. thanks to people for reading, twas good to share!