Bicycle deaths double

Qualitymark

a148pro wrote: »

From my reading of the post the cyclist moved to the right side of the lane and stopped, dismounted in order to cross the opposite lane where traffic was moving in the opposite direction.

I signalled to go right and moved to the right around here 53.329589, -6.248866. At this point there was a) a one-way street I couldn't turn into, and b) just ahead of that a traffic island. The street was free of traffic, apart from the taxi driving in the inside lane, which had already passed me.

The taxi driver assumed that I was turning in to go a) the wrong way up the one-way street. It was on that basis that he leaned his body out of his window facing backwards and screamed and waved at me. I'll leave it to your judgment exactly who was the dangerous road user here.

If a taxi driver finds moving to the right to dismount and cross at a traffic island - clearly signalled, at a careful speed, on a virtually empty road - a scarily unexpected manoeuvre, he really shouldn't be driving professionally.

Velotogo

Not sure if it's the cold weather but I've noticed a lot impatient and downright negligent behaviour from cyclists this week. I work in south County Dublin and the number of people breaking lights and taking chances at busy intersections along the N11 corridor in the mornings has been very noticeable.

These clowns aren't helping the image and reputation of cyclists amongst the non-cycling population.

Steo M

I drive a car, use a motorbike for work, cycle to keep fit & have been doing this for the last 30 years so I've seen the good & bad Irish road users over the years.

Personally I think cyclists should be subject to some sort of compulsory training like motorists & the minimal they should know are the rules of the road.

Cyclists can do a lot to save themselves from injury or getting killed by being aware of their surroundings, riding in a sensible manner, obeying the rules of the road, wearing helmets, having working lights on their bikes & be highly visible at all times.

If I drove my motorbike with no lights, didn't wear a crash helmet & broke every red light I came to, I'd be prosecuted, lose my license, have to pay a hefty fine & could end up in jail.

beauf

What % of accidents are caused by all of that.

Steo M

beauf wrote: »

What % of accidents are caused by all of that.

Don't understand cryptic messages, what exactly are you asking?

Beasty

Steo M wrote: »

Personally I think cyclists should be subject to some sort of compulsory training like motorists & the minimal they should know are the rules of the road.

And with one fell swoop you have put kids off for life. A lot of those who probably could pass such a "test" would probably not be bothered. If they don't start young they may never take up cycling at all.

Steo M

Beasty wrote: »

And with one fell swoop you have put kids off for life. A lot of those who probably could pass such a "test" would probably not be bothered. If they don't start young they may never take up cycling at all.

I don't know if you're trying to be a smart ass but at least read my reply properly if you're going to make sarcastic comments. Did I mention a test, I said 'get trained'??

As for kids taking up cycling, why shouldn't they be given some sort of training regarding road safety? This could easily be done in school whether it's learning to be a pedestrian or a cyclist. Being safe on the road applies to them like it does to everyone else. If they're thought this valuable lesson at a young age, they will know how to be careful road users as they get older.

If you do have kids, I'm sure you wouldn't let them out on the road on their own without the basic skills of getting from A to B safely.

desertcircus

Steo M wrote: »

I drive a car, use a motorbike for work, cycle to keep fit & have been doing this for the last 30 years so I've seen the good & bad Irish road users over the years.

Personally I think cyclists should be subject to some sort of compulsory training like motorists & the minimal they should know are the rules of the road.

Cyclists can do a lot to save themselves from injury or getting killed by being aware of their surroundings, riding in a sensible manner, obeying the rules of the road, wearing helmets, having working lights on their bikes & be highly visible at all times.

If I drove my motorbike with no lights, didn't wear a crash helmet & broke every red light I came to, I'd be prosecuted, lose my license, have to pay a hefty fine & could end up in jail.

Cycling really isn't that dangerous. There's no body of evidence that compulsory training would make cycling any safer - in fact, if compulsory training reduces the number of cyclists on the road, then it could make cycling more dangerous by reducing drivers' exposure to cyclists and making them less aware of cyclists in general. It's also worth noting that even without any compulsory training, cyclists are far less likely to die on the road than motorcyclists. Riding a bicycle simply isn't very dangerous.

Saipanne

Not right to just blame motorists. We all know that many cyclists simply ignore traffic lights. As do pedestrians/motorists. This type of behaviour can lead to accidents.

Velotogo

Beasty wrote: »

And with one fell swoop you have put kids off for life. A lot of those who probably could pass such a "test" would probably not be bothered. If they don't start young they may never take up cycling at all.

Surely something could be arranged between the Department of Education, Department of Environment and Cycling Ireland to put together a course to teach transition year students the basics of road behaviour on a bike. Maybe they could get the Irish pro cyclists on-board to make it a bit more appealing.

I agree though, make it fun first and perhaps introduce a few light-hearted but serious message video pieces in primary school.

Tenzor07

Velotogo wrote: »

Surely something could be arranged between the Department of Education, Department of Environment and Cycling Ireland to put together a course to teach transition year students the basics of road behaviour on a bike. Maybe they could get the Irish pro cyclists on-board to make it a bit more appealing.I agree though, make it fun first and perhaps introduce a few light-hearted but serious message video pieces in primary school.

Only road education I've heard of is "Drivers Ed" class for secondary schools..hopefully it will teach young drivers awareness and respect for those small soft squishy things on two wheels?

Steo M

desertcircus wrote: »

Cycling really isn't that dangerous. There's no body of evidence that compulsory training would make cycling any safer - in fact, if compulsory training reduces the number of cyclists on the road, then it could make cycling more dangerous by reducing drivers' exposure to cyclists and making them less aware of cyclists in general. It's also worth noting that even without any compulsory training, cyclists are far less likely to die on the road than motorcyclists. Riding a bicycle simply isn't very dangerous.

If cycling is not dangerous, then why are there so many injuries & deaths of cyclists?Compulsory training wouldn't reduce the amount of cyclists, the same as the driving test doesn't stop people learning how to drive motorbikes & cars.
Cyclists are in control of a machine on a public roads & if given the basic tools to know how to use the road properly will keep them safer & naturally there will be fewer deaths.

desertcircus

Total cyclist deaths in Ireland average out at less than ten a year. That's compared to a total of almost 200 deaths per year on Irish roads.

We're going to have to disagree on whether compulsory training would reduce overall numbers of cyclists: it's literally unbelievable to me that a country could significantly raise the barrier for cycling and see absolutely no drop in the number of people cycling. With fewer people cycling (which I'm absolutely convinced would happen, just as Australia's compulsory helmet laws mean bikesharing schemes are ten times quieter than other countries') people become less used to driving in the presence of cyclists and more likely to engage in driving behaviour that endangers cyclists.

Lastly: of the eleven deaths of cyclists this year, how many were attributed to unsafe road use by the cyclists themselves? It's impossible to make a recommendation for cyclist safety without knowing the answer to that. If cyclists were entirely at fault in all eleven, then there's a pretty strong case for pushing better cyclist education, but if all eleven were the result of errors by drivers that led to cyclist deaths, then spending money on educating cyclists is a terrible misuse of money that should have been put to use educating drivers.

Seaswimmer

Steo M wrote: »

I don't know if you're trying to be a smart ass but at least read my reply properly if you're going to make sarcastic comments. Did I mention a test, I said 'get trained'??

As for kids taking up cycling, why shouldn't they be given some sort of training regarding road safety? This could easily be done in school whether it's learning to be a pedestrian or a cyclist. Being safe on the road applies to them like it does to everyone else. If they're thought this valuable lesson at a young age, they will know how to be careful road users as they get older.

If you do have kids, I'm sure you wouldn't let them out on the road on their own without the basic skills of getting from A to B safely.

Why does it always come back to this or that should be done in school? Considering its impossible to cover the present curriculum (especially in primary) this is never going to happen. The responsibility should lie with the parents.

I accept that maybe in transition year there may be more free time but at that age unfortunately we have missed the boat and kids are more interested in learning to drive.

galwaycyclist

Beasty wrote: »

And with one fell swoop you have put kids off for life. A lot of those who probably could pass such a "test" would probably not be bothered. If they don't start young they may never take up cycling at all.

Uh no. Doing cycle training and a cycling test in school is a fundamental part of childhood and the cycling culture in countries like the Netherlands, Denmark, Germany and Austria.

For the purpose of google try search terms like Verkeersexamen, , Cyklistprøven, Radfahrprüfung
They have been part of the mix in the Netherlands and Denmark since the 1940s.

https://www.sikkertrafik.dk/Skole/F%C3%A6rdselskontaktl%C3%A6rer/Nyheder-til-faerdselskontaktlaerere/Cp-70-aars-jubilaeum.aspx

http://vvn.nl/wat-we-doen/op-de-basisschool/vvn-verkeersexamen

Kids see them as a "right of passage" as a sign of becoming part of the grown ups.
In Austria children between 9 and 11 must do a test if they want to cycle to school by themselves.

Edit: Link to German cycle test site
http://www.kl-verlag.de/radfahr-pruefung.html

Austria (note the test is conducted by the police)

http://www.jugendrotkreuz.at/index.php?1572

Would you like to live in a country where the police are involved in cycle training? How do you think that might change their attitude to cycling accidents?

Beasty

Steo M wrote: »

I don't know if you're trying to be a smart ass but at least read my reply properly if you're going to make sarcastic comments. Did I mention a test, I said 'get trained'??

There was certainly no sarcasm intended - I was simply pointing out a basic defect with your proposal. However you were the the one stating that cyclists "should know are the rules of the road" - how can you get their attention in any "training" and confirm they "know" the RoTR if you don't test it

Now if you do want a sarcastic reply, why not extend the principles to pedestrians as more are involved in fatal road accidents than cyclists (a factor of > 3:1 this year)?

Beasty

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Uh no. Doing cycle training and a cycling test in school is a fundamental part of childhood and the cycling culture in countries like the Netherlands, Denmark, Germany and Austria.

Just to be clear I am not againsrt cycle training per se, particularly for kids. I am though definitely against compulsion which I think will seriously reduce cycle use and possibly create additional problems including the practicalities or otherwise of enforcement

Making cycle training part of the school curriculem is certainly something I would have no issue with personally but agian the practicalities need to be considered. For example who will pay for this and what about the potential impact on academic studies? I could not see something like this gathering any momentum given the current economic climate and the fact that parents typically (and quite rightly in my view) have much more of a focus on academic achievement, which will normally have a much more important impact on their kids futures

galwaycyclist

Beasty wrote: »

Just to be clear I am not againsrt cycle training per se, particularly for kids. I am though definitely against compulsion which I think will seriously reduce cycle use and possibly create additional problems including the practicalities or otherwise of enforcement

Making cycle training part of the school curriculem is certainly something I would have no issue with personally but agian the practicalities need to be considered. For example who will pay for this and what about the potential impact on academic studies? I could not see something like this gathering any momentum given the current economic climate and the fact that parents typically (and quite rightly in my view) have much more of a focus on academic achievement, which will normally have a much more important impact on their kids futures

Yes there is a wider question to be asked in this country about the purpose of school. Is it to prepare people for college or for life?

On phone so considered discussion will have to wait.

Just pointing out that other countries manage to do child cycle training on a mass basis and done so for decades.

Macy0161

Steo M wrote: »

If cycling is not dangerous, then why are there so many injuries & deaths of cyclists?Compulsory training wouldn't reduce the amount of cyclists, the same as the driving test doesn't stop people learning how to drive motorbikes & cars.

Is 11 out of 180 a lot? Most road deaths are people in/ on motorised vehicles that are driven by people who've had the compulsory training.

Compulsory training doesn't change road user behaviour, enforcement does. Every cyclists knows they should stop at red lights, but the same as the motorised vehicles that go through reds, if there's not enforcement they chance their arm.

For what its worth, I did do cycle training when I was in primary school. I went to school in Britain, and my school did the ROSPA Cycling Proficiency course. I think it was a couple of hours a session over a couple of sessions - was back in the 80's, so its a bit hazy. That's before the days of hi-viz/ helmet obsession we have now - it was pure road craft/ positioning and awareness of what's around you.

And that'd be my worry of a modern course - road safety advice around cycling all seems to be about the cyclist and being in danger. Not enough focus on other road users giving adequate space, understanding why a cyclist might "take the lane" etc. Any courses should also focus on that, as presumably most will also become drivers as well.

It still shouldn't be compulsory to use the roads though. Where does that stop - compulsory for pedestrians too?

Qualitymark

Cycle training in school would certainly be a good thing; however, in my experience it consists of cycling around the yard while being told about lane discipline, signals, etc. For it to work properly it would have to include a cycle club where kids go out on proper cycles taking a couple of hours. And also mending your bike, for that matter.

CramCycle

Seaswimmer wrote: »

Why does it always come back to this or that should be done in school? Considering its impossible to cover the present curriculum (especially in primary) this is never going to happen. The responsibility should lie with the parents.

I find that hard to believe considering how basic primary education is in Ireland compared to many other equivalent countries.

Seaswimmer

CramCycle wrote: »

I find that hard to believe considering how basic primary education is in Ireland compared to many other equivalent countries.

The primary curriculum in Ireland is largely aspirational. It is impossible to cover it all so in my experience teachers concentrate on the "3R's" which is why perhaps it is considered basic.

You may be shocked to learn that PE is only granted 1 hour per week and religious education 2.5 hours per week.

A quick reversal there and there would be an opportunity for some cycle training.

http://www.ncca.ie/en/Curriculum_and_Assessment/Early_Childhood_and_Primary_Education/Primary-Education/Primary_School_Curriculum/Primary_Curriculum_Intro.pdf

See page 70 if you want to see how your kids spend their days..

BostonB

Steo M wrote: »

Don't understand cryptic messages, what exactly are you asking?

I'm asking do you know what the statistics are in relation to the main causes of cycling accidents and deaths? Might that not be a better indication of where action is needed (of it is indeed needed). Where did you get your list of suggestions from.

CramCycle

Aspirational or not the simple fact is that it is behind the curve and while our secondary schools have in the past made up for this, I always feel that national school in Ireland has the issue of either the curriculum or the teachers have no faith in the capabilities of Irish youth.

Hell, my NS didn't even do the times tables until 3rd or 4th class, I learned them in Senior infants in England. This said our secondary schools were far superior considering their start. They also forced religious ceremonies and training to outside of school hours, maybe that is the difference.

8 years of Irish and only about 5 of 30 had any level that would be barely respectable and one of them only moved to Ireland in 4th class.

Point being that the expected level of education for someone getting out of national school is so low I find it hard to believe there is no spare time for road safety classes.

CramCycle

Rant over BTW

EAD

Transition year programme? To teach computers we have computer rooms. Would schools be expected to provide bikes? Would teachers be expected to bring groups of students out on public roads? Who are these teachers in every school who are qualified to lead group rides? Nice idea but nowhere near what could be done in the current systems. Many students don't do TY either so you'd miss a chunk of the population.
On a positive note many schools do have TY Road Safety courses which touch on issues regarding all road users.

Hmmzis

Seaswimmer wrote: »

PE is only granted 1 hour per week and religious education 2.5 hours per week.

Wow, that might explain some of the health problems of the population. Certainly that religios nonsene could be replaced with gym classes and basic ethics and also some rules of the road sessions now and then.

Mercian Pro

BostonB wrote: »

I'm asking do you know what the statistics are in relation to the main causes of cycling accidents and deaths? Might that not be a better indication of where action is needed (of it is indeed needed).

Good question. Does anyone know if any research has been done on this? Given the relatively low number of deaths (thankfully), there is probably a lot more to be learned from an analysis of serious accidents. This assumes that some investigation is carried out and records are kept if someone is hospitalised following a cycling accident. In my own case, the Gardai arrived at the scene and took statements but I have no idea if they brought a prosecution or if any records exist of the event.

monument

The RSA are to publish a new report on cycling collision stats sometime in the near future.

There's some independent work on building a database on the same.

monument

This attack on cynicism applies to more than just the quote I've posted...

EAD wrote: »

Transition year programme? To teach computers we have computer rooms. Would schools be expected to provide bikes? Would teachers be expected to bring groups of students out on public roads? Who are these teachers in every school who are qualified to lead group rides? Nice idea but nowhere near what could be done in the current systems. Many students don't do TY either so you'd miss a chunk of the population.
On a positive note many schools do have TY Road Safety courses which touch on issues regarding all road users.

Sorry but there's the Green Schools programme and councils and individual schools already involved with providing cycling training to primary schools.

Extending this to secondly schools is not rocket science.

Trainers are currently trained to the UK standard and an Irish standard is being developed.