Notice today of over 20% increase in rent?!

D12resident

Sala wrote: »

I can't add to the advice on the thread but was just about to post that these threads are becoming increasingly common. Our went up 6% last year which was fine but I just heard from our departing neighbours their landlord is going to advertise their apartment at over 50% more than what we are paying for our :eek:

I'd think that is fair. As mentioned in my previous post, open market prices should be whatever the landlord wants. But for year-on-year rent reviews there should be a rule added that a maximum increase of over 10-15% is not allowed (unless in the case of exceptional circumstances) to the current 'shouldn't exceed market value' situation.

I know this leaves it open to a huge amount of interpretation, but that would be for the more intelligent people to close any loopholes.

The Spider

D12resident wrote: »

Valid point but hasn't really added anything to your argument. I don't mean to nitpick, but before you edited your post you showed a search on daft.ie to back up your point of current rents in Ranelagh, but the rents for the properties matched closely enough to the rise in inflation, with apartments shown now for up to €2,800 a month for a 2-bed. I believe that the official figure is that rents are about 10% lower currently than they were at their 2007 peak. So that is the current situation for comparison I use. But correct me if I'm wrong.

Rathmines/Ranelagh have always been like that as they are a sought after area, but I am in Drimnagh because I can't afford those crazy prices. I can't recall what rents were like here over ten years ago, all I know is that the landlord (who isn't a person, it's a foreign investor who recently bought most of the complex a month ago) is trying to push an increase of 3 times the rate of inflation. Even the PRTB rent index shows the increase we're being asked for as completely out of line with local increases. I agree it's a Capitalist society and all that, but there is a difference between asking for a fair increase to a loyal tenant, and pure greed that will force us out of our home.

I don't mean to make it sound like a sob story. I am not raising a family and if needs be would move if required. But in general terms of fairness, to all of a sudden push a rise of hundreds of euros a month, which is not relative to an actual cost incurred by the landord, seems a little unfair. I am all for a landlord charging whatever he can on the open market, but there should be something in place to protect incumbent tenants. Something as simple as a maximum year-on-year increase. I'm not asking for another quango to be set up to manage rents or anything! How is someone meant to budget when a landlord can pick a number out of the air every year.

Or maybe I'll just start looking at apartments in communist China if I want a truly fair system .

That's all about right, I took the link out because I saw the weekly ask, which is crazy, and I can't see anybody paying that.

However my point stands that rents now are still cheaper than 12 years ago, sounds like bad luck that your apartments have been bought by a foreign investor who wants to maximise returns.

I think most smaller landlord will live and let live as long as the rent is paid. But again it depends on their mortgage they could have accepted lower rent that wouldn't cover the mortgage years ago because of over supply.

Now it's the opposite and they can get the amount needed to cover their costs.

jmayo

hfallada wrote: »

If there was rent control in Ireland, supply be far smaller. Not a single economist believes rent control is beneficial in the long term. It only further reduces supply, as its not as profitable to be a LL. LLs also have no incentive to make repairs/renovations as it will not result in higher rents. The higher rents will result in more building(as its happening in Dublin at the moment). In the long run rents may fall, as supply increases

OP we live in a capitalist country. If you think you can find cheaper elsewhere, move out.

Why does this post remind me of the argument bankers gave about too much regulations or the argument(s) that high ranking public servants/private sector ceos have to be paid massive amounts (more than comaprable in other countries) otherwise we get eejits doing the jobs. :rolleyes:

In an ideal scenario there wouldn't be a need for rent control, there wouldn't be a need for any controls in anything.
But the world isn't ideal and we now have a situation where rents can be jumped by massive amounts just because the market is currently setup that way.
There is report which now claims people are spending 40% of net income on accommodation. I actually don't know how valid the report is since there are questions on it's methodology-sample base.

The "market" and the capitalism argument has been shown up to be self serving and is not always in society's benefit in the long term.

To harp back to the often trotted out, but very correct mantra.
If we lived in a truly capitalist country then we (the citizens/taxpayers) would not have bailed out ineptly, nay fraudently, run banks or betting greedly developers.

It's marvellous how many capitalists turn socialists when it suits.

As for OP's problem, I think the best thing is for the residents to stick together and try and fight for a compromise solution.
There is power in numbers.

MrDerp

@D12 resident, is this Lansdowne Gate we're talking about?

Great complex, lived there in 2007-2008.

What's the rent like now? We paid 1425 for a 2 bed at the time, on the second floor. The rental market was similar then to now in Dublin, I think.

mountsky

I empathise,its a fair shock to get,but,with all due respect, there's very little regulation in place ,people can do what they like when there's no one to stop them!

D12resident

MrDerp wrote: »

@D12 resident, is this Lansdowne Gate we're talking about?

Great complex, lived there in 2007-2008.

What's the rent like now? We paid 1425 for a 2 bed at the time, on the second floor. The rental market was similar then to now in Dublin, I think.

It is, and it sounds indeed like you were paying closer to peak prices as we are getting to now. They are now asking for rents of €1350 for 2-beds, and €1600 for 3-beds. However I found this very interesting; I think it's their marketing material for the new investor, on a site called orangecollection(dot)ie (Can't post links sorry).

"Rental levels currently average €900 pm, €1,075 pm & €1,305 pm for one, two & three-bedroom apartments respectively.

However, rental levels of the most recently agreed units average approximately €1,100 pm, €1,200 pm & €1,550 pm for one, two & three-bedroom apartments respectively."

borderlinemeath

mountsky wrote: »

I empathise,its a fair shock to get,but,with all due respect, there's very little regulation in place ,people can do what they like when there's no one to stop them!

Just as tenants demanded rent reductions when there was an abundance of properties to let. Or when rent allowances were reduced by local authorities and recipients were told to demand their landlord take the hit. Little regulation works both ways, it just depends on the market forces at play.

I do feel bad for renters who are at the mercy of the current market, but it was the same for some landlords who couldn't pay their mortgages when they couldn't get anywhere near enough rent for their properties. My friend is in a similar situation, his apartment is let but not even covering the mortgage, let alone the tax obligations. He was burned before with a bad tenant so is so wary of putting up the rent after 3 years of a good tenant on the same rent.

Michael D Not Higgins

D12resident wrote: »

It is, and it sounds indeed like you were paying closer to peak prices as we are getting to now. They are now asking for rents of €1350 for 2-beds, and €1600 for 3-beds. However I found this very interesting; I think it's their marketing material for the new investor, on a site called orangecollection(dot)ie (Can't post links sorry).

"Rental levels currently average €900 pm, €1,075 pm & €1,305 pm for one, two & three-bedroom apartments respectively.

However, rental levels of the most recently agreed units average approximately €1,100 pm, €1,200 pm & €1,550 pm for one, two & three-bedroom apartments respectively."

I'd look at an appeal to the PRTB. 1350 seems high for a two bed, 1200 is more the norm in Dublin. I think part of the problem is that there's not much comparable places to rent in the area and if they can control the asking price for vacant places in the same development, they control the market rate for all the currently occupied places too.

It seems unfair in this case but the law defines the market rate as what someone else is willing to pay and if they can demonstrate that with their current vacancies, that's the market rate unfortunately.

This is part of the reason the government are looking to set rental increases in line with the inflation rate. That does two things. It keeps the rent at a level the renter can afford and it discourages some international investers as they will be less enticed into the market.

MrDerp

D12resident wrote: »

It is, and it sounds indeed like you were paying closer to peak prices as we are getting to now. They are now asking for rents of €1350 for 2-beds, and €1600 for 3-beds. However I found this very interesting; I think it's their marketing material for the new investor, on a site called orangecollection(dot)ie (Can't post links sorry).

"Rental levels currently average €900 pm, €1,075 pm & €1,305 pm for one, two & three-bedroom apartments respectively.

However, rental levels of the most recently agreed units average approximately €1,100 pm, €1,200 pm & €1,550 pm for one, two & three-bedroom apartments respectively."

That's worrying. That was the absolute peak in our renting experience too. It was when I first moved to Dublin and I could barely get an appointment in D4/D6 or other areas. In the end we spotted Lansdowne Gate on daft, checked it out, and we moved into one of the first blocks. It was very expensive at the time and next door there were 2 polish couples, one with a small child, in a 2 bed apartment.

By the time we moved out the following year, rents had eased, there were still blocks coming on stream, and we moved into town for not much more rent (the Gasworks). The following year (October 2009) the market was on the floor and we rented a 2bed house in Raheny for 1100 per month, which the landlady very kindly never raised in the 4 years we were there.

It sounds like it's absolutely mad again. In 2009 there was a pressure release valve of all the finished apartments coming on stream in Dublin. If everything is full now I'm not sure where the release valve will come from, and we might hit a new peak.

One things for sure, there'll be a lot more of the couples sharing a 2bed scenario.

As for the increase, it sounds like the new owner is trying to create the market, not follow it, and you really should band together. If even one or two parties accept the new rent, I'd worry that it'll be registered and they'll have it as their reference point, even if that's not in the spirit of the law

lima

The Spider wrote: »

That's all about right, I took the link out because I saw the weekly ask, which is crazy, and I can't see anybody paying that.

However my point stands that rents now are still cheaper than 12 years ago, sounds like bad luck that your apartments have been bought by a foreign investor who wants to maximise returns.

I think most smaller landlord will live and let live as long as the rent is paid. But again it depends on their mortgage they could have accepted lower rent that wouldn't cover the mortgage years ago because of over supply.

Now it's the opposite and they can get the amount needed to cover their costs.

I would agree with Spider that rents are quite cheap now. When I lived in London 1br apts were about gbp1400pcm and I heard they are now going for more like gbp1600pcm

I pay e1100pcm for a 1br and I split this with my other half, which is basically a steal for me as I got a e20k pay rise to come back to Dublin!!

mollser

23%? While this won't make it any easier to digest, it sounds to me like the new landlord has to charge VAT on the rents, probably too ensure they can recover vat incurred on acquiring the building.

It just seems coincidental that is the same rate.

Or maybe they just overpaid and ate now gouging the tenants!

kenmccarthy

20% increase??????? If my LL even had a dream about that kinda hike I'd have to pack bags-simple as that,20%~~~~~off the scale!!

D12resident

MrDerp wrote: »

That's worrying. That was the absolute peak in our renting experience too. It was when I first moved to Dublin and I could barely get an appointment in D4/D6 or other areas. In the end we spotted Lansdowne Gate on daft, checked it out, and we moved into one of the first blocks. It was very expensive at the time and next door there were 2 polish couples, one with a small child, in a 2 bed apartment.

By the time we moved out the following year, rents had eased, there were still blocks coming on stream, and we moved into town for not much more rent (the Gasworks). The following year (October 2009) the market was on the floor and we rented a 2bed house in Raheny for 1100 per month, which the landlady very kindly never raised in the 4 years we were there.

It sounds like it's absolutely mad again. In 2009 there was a pressure release valve of all the finished apartments coming on stream in Dublin. If everything is full now I'm not sure where the release valve will come from, and we might hit a new peak.

One things for sure, there'll be a lot more of the couples sharing a 2bed scenario.

As for the increase, it sounds like the new owner is trying to create the market, not follow it, and you really should band together. If even one or two parties accept the new rent, I'd worry that it'll be registered and they'll have it as their reference point, even if that's not in the spirit of the law

This was a great reply. The fact that they are creating the market is exactly it! I've actually sent an e-mail to a local TD and got a very quick response. Said that this new company were recognised as 'profit maximisinng vultures'. I think that about sums it up nicely for me!
I'm not usually the kind of person to start a mass protest against things like this but setting up a residents association is looking like the way to go. Even got offered the use of this TD's office for meetings, printing etc!

The Spider

kenmccarthy wrote: »

20% increase??????? If my LL even had a dream about that kinda hike I'd have to pack bags-simple as that,20%~~~~~off the scale!!

Where would you go if him raising the rent by 20% and the rent was still lower than market rates?

D12resident

The Spider wrote: »

Where would you go if him raising the rent by 20% and the rent was still lower than market rates?

Good question, can I ask what your attitude to this would be?

Personally I think that no matter who the landlord is, they should recognise that a 20% rise is crazy as rent is already such a huge outgoing every month. But markets do experience bubbles like what seems to be happening now. A 10% increase is even steep for God sake, but that is what the increases are based on the market right now, not 20%. If possibly the 10% figure was quoted in a rent review I could see where they were coming from because it's based on actual facts.

Something else I forgot to mention in my original post is that these are not even fully furnished apartments (i.e. no plates, cutlery, etc came with the apartment), which is unusual and needs to be considered when comparing prices against the market in my particular case.

Tarzana2

D12resident wrote: »

]Even the PRTB rent index shows the increase we're being asked for as completely out of line with local increases.

Then take it to the PTRB. You have a good chance of a ruling going in your favour if this is the case.

The Spider

D12resident wrote: »

Good question, can I ask what your attitude to this would be?

Personally I think that no matter who the landlord is, they should recognise that a 20% rise is crazy as rent is already such a huge outgoing every month. But markets do experience bubbles like what seems to be happening now. A 10% increase is even steep for God sake, but that is what the increases are based on the market right now, not 20%. If possibly the 10% figure was quoted in a rent review I could see where they were coming from because it's based on actual facts.

Something else I forgot to mention in my original post is that these are not even fully furnished apartments (i.e. no plates, cutlery, etc came with the apartment), which is unusual and needs to be considered when comparing prices against the market in my particular case.

Having been on both sides of the fence, we have an apartment rented out, and as far as we're concerned the rent will stay as is until the tenants decide to move out, they're good and don't bother us, they're saving for a house and the mortgage is covered so we're happy, no intention of just being assholes about it.

However I rented for years and had that situation where the rent was just raised for the sake of it a few times, generally took a look around realised that we couldn't do better and paid the increase.

However I also rented one place in 2005 that didn't have an increase when the landlord could have easily asked for one, I could've got a decrease when the market collapsed but didn't ask for one, karma and all that.

Beaner1

The PRTB index is your friend.

Whatever happens make sure to block any viewings of the house till you've left which should guarantee they have a void period of some duration. If landlords want to chase decent tenants out with ridiculous rent increases ever 12 months then they should be ready for a hit voids, agency fees and PRTB registrations.

D12resident

Beaner1 wrote: »

The PRTB index is your friend.

Whatever happens make sure to block any viewings of the house till you've left which should guarantee they have a void period of some duration. If landlords want to chase decent tenants out with ridiculous rent increases ever 12 months then they should be ready for a hit voids, agency fees and PRTB registrations.

The PRTB index is definitely a point I'm going to raise seeing as it shows less than what we're paying at the moment!

Beaner1

D12resident wrote: »

The PRTB index is definitely a point I'm going to raise seeing as it shows less than what we're paying at the moment!

It's best to use the percentage change for your property type, in your area since you started renting. How can they top an index of actual market rents? A few daft ads or an index of hundreds?

borderlinemeath

Beaner1 wrote: »

The PRTB index is your friend.

Whatever happens make sure to block any viewings of the house till you've left which should guarantee they have a void period of some duration. If landlords want to chase decent tenants out with ridiculous rent increases ever 12 months then they should be ready for a hit voids, agency fees and PRTB registrations.

That's a great way to get a good reference from the estate agency/landlord :rolleyes:. Good references are all the more important when tenants have to compete with multiple viewings and people offering on the spot deposits and excellent references.

The_Morrigan

D12resident wrote: »

The PRTB index is definitely a point I'm going to raise seeing as it shows less than what we're paying at the moment!

Be mindful that this data is not current - think the latest is Q2 2014, we're in Q4 now with a lot of activity since the last data was compiled and published.

Arbiter of Good Taste

borderlinemeath wrote: »

That's a great way to get a good reference from the estate agency/landlord :rolleyes:. Good references are all the more important when tenants have to compete with multiple viewings and people offering on the spot deposits and excellent references.

And considering it is now a landlords market. The "void" period isn't going to be very long anyway. Assuming market value is, indeed, 20% more than what the OP is paying, I don't see what the LL has to lose just on the basis of the numbers.

MouseTail

D12resident wrote: »

This was a great reply. The fact that they are creating the market is exactly it! I've actually sent an e-mail to a local TD and got a very quick response. Said that this new company were recognised as 'profit maximisinng vultures'. I think that about sums it up nicely for me!
I'm not usually the kind of person to start a mass protest against things like this but setting up a residents association is looking like the way to go. Even got offered the use of this TD's office for meetings, printing etc!

I think tenants joining together forming associations could be quite powerful. As we get more professionalised landlords, who will not behave the way Spider outlined ( my mortgage is covered, they are good tenants, leave rent as it is) profit will be the primary driver, and a counter grouping with political clout could have the power to stand against them.

ceadaoin.

lima wrote: »

I would agree with Spider that rents are quite cheap now. When I lived in London 1br apts were about gbp1400pcm and I heard they are now going for more like gbp1600pcm

I pay e1100pcm for a 1br and I split this with my other half, which is basically a steal for me as I got a e20k pay rise to come back to Dublin!!

The price of rent in London doesn't really have anything to do with Dublin though. Or did you just want to mention that you got a 20k pay rise?

lima

ceadaoin. wrote: »

The price of rent in London doesn't really have anything to do with Dublin though. Or did you just want to mention that you got a 20k pay rise?

My point is that irish think they are hard done by, when in fact they don't compared to their nearest neighbors who have to pay more rent, council tax and water charges.

Point about raise is that I had to pay more with less salary in London and I didn't feel hard done by.

Beaner1

lima wrote: »

My point is that irish think they are hard done by, when in fact they don't compared to their nearest neighbors who have to pay more rent, council tax and water charges.

Point about raise is that I had to pay more with less salary in London and I didn't feel hard done by.

You are comparing it to London which has one of the toughest rental markets in the world. Dublin is a backwater in world terms.

Michael D Not Higgins

Comparisons with London are meaningless to be honest.

Average two bed prices per month
Dublin €1100-1200
Birmingham €867
Edinburgh €1074
Manchester €913
Liverpool €651
Sheffield €758
Glasgow €728
Newcastle €765
Nottingham €772
London €3300 no comparison

Sh1tbag OToole

Isnt it mighty to see all these LL getting paid an extra 20% for doing nothing

The_Morrigan

Sh1tbag OToole wrote: »

Isnt it mighty to see all these LL getting paid an extra 20% for doing nothing

I'd appreciate if you could keep your posts constructive, posts that create a 'them vs us' discussion are against the charter.