Its elfansafety gone mad!

Harry Palmr

Just had a little exchange with Dizzyblonde on the cooking forum she told me off for seeking advice on cooking a sausage

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057056139&page=134 start at 4017

and pointed me at the warning about same here

Why does the cooking forum have such a warning when the DIY forum in Motoring does not. It would of course be evidently self-defeating to stop people discussing DIY fixing of cars on a DIY fixing of cars forum

Also what is the difference between food safety advice and discussing cooking technique? How one cooks a sausage could fall into either or both camps.

Maybe I should have phrased my question differently.

Finally why have any warnings at all, this is a message board which is a chat down the pub without the booze, I'd be interested to hear an admins view of liability.

seamus

In short - purporting to give anything which could be construed as medical or legal advice is illegal, and liability for poor advice may extend to things like advice on health & safety. There's also to a certain extent an element of protecting people from themselves - if you ask, "Is it safe to stick an iron nail into a plug socket", there is always one asshole who'll tell you to stick a nail into each hole to be sure, and there's always one idiot who'll take that advice at face value.

And theoretically when said idiot kills himself, boards.ie could be on the hook for permitted dangerous advice to be "published" on it.

In response to the "what's the difference" question, one is leaving the matter to personal discretion, the other is not. If you ask whether it's safe to cook a sausages in boiling water, and someone says yes or no, that's definitive.

If you ask whether it's a good idea, someone can tell you that it's tasty and delicious, but determining whether or not it's cooked properly is up to you.

Totally aside, you can cook anything using any method - provided that something is cooked fully through, it's safe to eat. Determining if it's been properly cooked through, is up to you.
Whether it will taste nice though, depends on how it's been cooked.

Tombi!

Let's say I tell you to reheat chicken for 2 minutes.
It's warm to hot. But not too hot.
You get sent to the hospital.
You then get to grab yourself a nice case of "Boards.ie had someone tell me to cook chicken for two minutes and it sent me to the hospital".

Or what Seamus said.

Oh and the above was an example

One eyed Jack

seamus wrote: »

In short - purporting to give anything which could be construed as medical or legal advice is illegal, and liability for poor advice may extend to things like advice on health & safety. There's also to a certain extent an element of protecting people from themselves - if you ask, "Is it safe to stick an iron nail into a plug socket", there is always one asshole who'll tell you to stick a nail into each hole to be sure, and there's always one idiot who'll take that advice at face value.

And theoretically when said idiot kills himself, boards.ie could be on the hook for permitted dangerous advice to be "published" on it.

This brings up an interesting point actually regarding something else that has become quite commonplace recently and that is around the whole issue of mental health and posters discussing their medications and giving other posters advice regarding their mental health.

I'm thinking of a recent thread in After Hours where posters were listing whatever medication they were on, and at times the discussion would wander into medical advice territory. It's happening more and more frequently on a couple of threads, and not just in After Hours but in a number of forums.

I know PI/RI are strictly moderated, as is Legal Discussion, but in other forums there does seem to be a great deal of leniency afforded in threads where advice could be interpreted as medical or legal advice.

I'm just wondering how enforceable is this when it's supposed to be a site-wide rule, yet depending on the forum, it's more of a judgment call. There doesn't seem to be any consistency across forums on what would be one of the most well known rules on Boards.

The Hill Billy

Let's not be disingenuous - You weren't 'told off' for asking how to cook a sausage. You were advised of the forum rules when you asked if you could expect to suffer from a stomach ailment because of the way you wished to cook something.

As for the potential liability for being given bad advice - see posts above. In F&D we go for a safe rather than sorry approach.

zombieHanalei

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Just had a little exchange with Dizzyblonde on the cooking forum she told me off for seeking advice on cooking a sausage

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057056139&page=134 start at 4017

and pointed me at the warning about same here

Why does the cooking forum have such a warning when the DIY forum in Motoring does not. It would of course be evidently self-defeating to stop people discussing DIY fixing of cars on a DIY fixing of cars forum

Also what is the difference between food safety advice and discussing cooking technique? How one cooks a sausage could fall into either or both camps.

Maybe I should have phrased my question differently.

Finally why have any warnings at all, this is a message board which is a chat down the pub without the booze, I'd be interested to hear an admins view of liability.

It's not though. Your chat down at the pub isn't published word for word for an audience of potentially millions to see, and if it were you'd probably be very careful about what you say.

I do think you have a point here though; from my reading I don't really feel you were asking a question from a H&S perspective, it looked more to be from a technique perspective. I think you should PM the mod about it, but to be fair you weren't warned, it was more a polite reminder of a charter rule.

Faith

zombieHanalei wrote: »

It's not though. Your chat down at the pub isn't published word for word for an audience of potentially millions to see, and if it were you'd probably be very careful about what you say.

Exactly. A reply isn't just for your eyes. It will appear on google searches for ever more. Untold numbers of people could see it and take bad advice at face value.

It's easier and safer for us to take a blanket approach, rather than individually snipping posts that contain bad advice. Plus, a person is rarely malicious in posting bad advice but they'll sure as hell get angry when their post is singled out. Just because Poster A has eaten raw minced beef every week for 40 years without getting sick, doesn't mean Posters B to Z will have the same experience.

We can't and won't take responsibility for people following bad advice and getting seriously ill.

In addition, when someone asks something like "My chicken is a day past its sell by date - is it safe to eat?", no-one on the internet can see it, smell it, touch it, or know what kind of conditions it was stored at. So it's not just a case of saying "Chance it, it'll probably be grand". For all you know, it's been stored in a too-warm fridge and has turned vaguely green at this stage.

Cookie_Monster

What is "food safety advice" though? Surely the dieting forum and recommended diets falls foul of this?

Tombi!

I figured it's questions about food preparation that might be a danger to your immediate health.
You could ask something like: is putting ketchup on chicken a good idea?
But you won't get to ask: is it okay to buy a roll with chicken on it and reheat it a few hours later?

But you could easily say something like: a source of good protein is skinless chicken.
So it's really asking for advice about diet and potential food preparation rather than direct instructions that could be a danger (ie, throw a bit of salad in their, sprinkle a bit of salt on, etc; this would be fine) but nothing like "wait exactly three minutes of defrosting and then you can eat".

The Hill Billy

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

What is "food safety advice" though? Surely the dieting forum and recommended diets falls foul of this?

That is for the Nutrition & Dieting mods to comment on really. This thread was specifically created in relation to Cooking & Recipes.

Faith

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

What is "food safety advice" though?

It's basically any question that either directly or indirectly asks if it's safe to prepare or consume food outside of normal guidelines. Following on from Brutal Deluxe's example, it could be "I got a roll from the deli and left it in my bag since this morning. Is it still okay to eat?" or "Will it be alright if I defrost chicken breasts on the counter while I'm at work?". If there's any doubt about the safety of the food at the point of consumption, then we don't allow it. Thankfully, there are very clear guidelines published on food safety, so it's quite obvious when something breaks the rules (e.g. the only 100% safe way to defrost meat is in a fridge; food bought from a deli counter should be consumed within a short time frame or else refrigerated).

Cookie_Monster

Not trying to provoke an argument, appreciate that it does make sense in a way to limit certain suggestions on prep and cooking but actually quite interested as to where the boundaries lie here, 'normal' in ireland doesn't mean normal or accepted elsewhere after all...

Faith wrote: »

Thankfully, there are very clear guidelines published on food safety, so it's quite obvious when something breaks the rules.

guidelines published by who?

Whats the guidelines on raw mince for example, I'm sure something like that split the consensus (or eggs) and are fine in some countries / cultures but I would reckon are frowned upon in Ireland historically.

The Hill Billy

The FSAI & Bord Bia sites are good places to start.

seamus

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

What is "food safety advice" though? Surely the dieting forum and recommended diets falls foul of this?

Well, not really, unless there's a safety aspect to it.
In that case, it's a call for those mods, but in general unless a diet is telling someone to eat something poisonous or not eat anything at all, then there's a fair chance that they're not going to come to any harm by following it. There's also the aspect of "it's not what you ask, it's how you ask it". That is, "Will I lose weight with this diet" versus "Is this diet safe"? People rarely ask the latter, so the rule doesn't really need to be looked at.

On the "not eating anything at all" diet, this is the primary reason why the food diary forum had to be closed. There were a few posters in there following diaries bordering on anorexic, a mars bar or two a day, etc, some really insane diets. And being encouraged on by other posters who didn't know any better.
There was an aspect from the admins of not morally being able to stand by and allow boards to enable that kind of self-abuse, but there was also a potential legal aspect to it where boards may have liability for the encouragement provided by others.

Dav

One eyed Jack wrote: »

This brings up an interesting point actually regarding something else that has become quite commonplace recently and that is around the whole issue of mental health and posters discussing their medications and giving other posters advice regarding their mental health.

I'm thinking of a recent thread in After Hours where posters were listing whatever medication they were on, and at times the discussion would wander into medical advice territory.

There should be absolutely zero discussion of anything of this sort. None.

"I'm on Lexapro 20mg and it's brilliant, you should get that" is against the rules.

"I'm on Lexapro 20mg and it's brilliant." is not medical advice, that's relaying personal experience.

It's good that others want to share ideas and help, but recommending a certain course of action over another in the case of a medical issue is not what we're here for, that's what GPs, psychologists, psychiatrists, and all the other mental health and medical professionals are for.

Now, of course, there's a line of common sense that needs to be kept in mind - telling someone who's showing signs of depression to go see a doctor is technically medical advice. Just like telling someone who's cut their finger to stick a plaster on it after washing it out is also medical advice. "Have a lemsip" when someone's got a cold is medical advice and barring a paracetamol allergy, is unlikely to cause someone harm, unless they're already taking paracetamol - and paracetamol overdosing has cold and flu like symptoms, so you get into a cycle of trying to take more to feel better and you end up destroying your liver.

If you're seeing people actively advising others on medication etc, that needs to be reported and if it's not being actioned, bump it to me and I'll make sure the mods are aware.

kneemos

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Just had a little exchange with Dizzyblonde on the cooking forum she told me off for seeking advice on cooking a sausage

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057056139&page=134 start at 4017

and pointed me at the warning about same here

Why does the cooking forum have such a warning when the DIY forum in Motoring does not. It would of course be evidently self-defeating to stop people discussing DIY fixing of cars on a DIY fixing of cars forum

Also what is the difference between food safety advice and discussing cooking technique? How one cooks a sausage could fall into either or both camps.

Maybe I should have phrased my question differently.

Finally why have any warnings at all, this is a message board which is a chat down the pub without the booze, I'd be interested to hear an admins view of liability.

Looked like a cooking suggestion to me.
Don't know where the food safety angle came in.
Would it be OK to ask is it OK to fry sausages?

Faith

kneemos wrote: »

Looked like a cooking suggestion to me.
Don't know where the food safety angle came in.
Would it be OK to ask is it OK to fry sausages?

If the question is "Is frying sausages a good cooking method?", then that's fine.

If the question is "Is frying sausages safe, or will it make me sick?", then that's food safety territory.

kneemos

Faith wrote: »

If the question is "Is frying sausages a good cooking method?", then that's fine.

If the question is "Is frying sausages safe, or will it make me sick?", then that's food safety territory.

He asked was it possible to boil sausages,which it is.

Having called him out on it a mod and a category mod proceed to tell him it is indeed possible and very delicious.

Go figure.

Faith

He asked if it was possible, or if it would make him sick. The query straddled the line, and that's why a polite note not to ask for further food safety advice was put in the thread, rather than locking/deleting as we'd normally do.

The Hill Billy

kneemos wrote: »

He asked was it possible to boil sausages,which it is.

Having called him out on it a mod and a category mod proceed to tell him it is indeed possible and very delicious.

Go figure.

He wasn't 'called out' on it. He wasn't subject to a mod action. He was given a heads-up. You'd swear he was attacked by a baying mob of mods with Mjölnir-grade banhammers. A bit of perspective, please...

Harry Palmr

Yep my jokey mention of deli (Delhi) belly was what did for me.

kneemos

The Hill Billy wrote: »

He wasn't 'called out' on it. He wasn't subject to a mod action. He was given a heads-up. You'd swear he was attacked by a baying mob of mods with Mjölnir-grade banhammers. A bit of perspective, please...

What was the "heads up for"or shouldn't we ask questions?

Tom Dunne

kneemos wrote: »

What was the "heads up for"or shouldn't we ask questions?

Seriously buddy, let it go.

It's these kind of pedantic arguments that suck the joy out of a discussion forum. So do us all a favour and drop it.

Faith

kneemos wrote: »

What was the "heads up for"or shouldn't we ask questions?

I don't know how many more times, in how many more ways, we can explain that. Do you really not get it or are you just trolling? Even the OP himself has explained it to you.

MissFlitworth

I would probably come across as someone who knows a lot about food and people who saw a post from me telling them that something was safe to eat would probably listen to me. However. Once upon a recent time I genuinely thought that throwing hot rice in the fridge and warming up a portion when I wanted it or eating the now cold bacteria-mush in rice salad, was safe and grand to do. And I told people (not here thanks be to..)that they should go ahead and do it and got into a fight with someone who told me I was wrong. I was *fully* convinced it was ok, I was authoritive-verging-on-patronising. I used a rolleyes. I could have made people really sick. (luckily a person with some cop on that I worked with gave me a ding around the ear and made me stop)

People like me circa 2007 are the reason we can't have anyone give any food safety advice in Food & Drink and why myself and the rest of the mods full on lep on any mention of it, even if it seems a bit jokey. Some of it's right, some of it's wrong and the people who shout the loudest, appear to know what they are on about and are the most insistent aren't always right. It's a pity that it has to be like this but I completely disagree that it's health and safety gone mad. Seriously, I've seen the effects of eating badly handled, fridge rice and it ain't pretty!

The Hill Billy

kneemos wrote: »

What was the "heads up for"or shouldn't we ask questions?

This was covered in previous posts in this thread. If you have difficulty understanding the flow of the thread, please drop me a PM & I will explain as best I can what has already been discussed.