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JPNelsforearm

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Just to call out 'nonsense' on the above, I went looking at Guardian articles about those attacks, and found this feminist writer in the Guardian, Gaby Hinsliff - who has written plenty of feminist articles - writing about the attacks:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/08/cologne-attacks-hard-questions-new-years-eve

Yes, because that is a sane article

"For xenophobes and racists, or merely anyone opposed to immigration, this story is Christmas come a week late."

Yes, everyone who is opposed to mass immigration is a xenophobe racist, and a mass rape is "Christmas time" for them...seriously, thats an insane statement.

"Rightwing politicians are salivating at this juicy new angle of attack on Angela Merkel’s “open door” refugee policy – although German authorities say the perpetrators’ origins are unknown and there’s no evidence linking recently arrived refugees to the attacks. Just watch the misogynistic dinosaurs defending young women’s right to party, now that it’s a legitimate way of attacking immigration. How long before Nigel Farage, recently reduced to grabbing headlines by suggesting someone might have murderously sabotaged his Volvo, takes up a story that seems tailor-made for the year of a likely EU referendum?"

Wrong, there is plenty of evidence, eight arrests(out of the thousand strong crew) so far have been refugees, why here a tale of two girl raped by four Syrian refugees, obviously a lie though right?http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/12088341/Two-teenage-girls-gang-raped-by-four-Syrian-nationals-in-southern-Germany.html

Yes, have a crack at Farage and the EU referendum, he'll be totally tasteless and make an issue out of it, not at all like Im doing right now..

"Quite rightly, we argue that punishing millions of refugees for the actions of a few criminals of unknown origin"

Again the unknown origin... top class journalism right there.

"Liberals shouldn’t be afraid to ask hard questions. Young German women thankfully enjoy historically unprecedented economic and sexual freedom, with their expensive smartphones and their right to celebrate New Year’s Eve however they want. The same isn’t always true of young male migrants exchanging life under repressive regimes, where they may at least have enjoyed superiority over women, for scraping by at the bottom of Europe’s social and economic food chain. It is not madness to ask if this has anything to do with attacks that render confident, seemingly lucky young women humiliated and powerless. But even if it does, the answer wouldn’t be to halt immigration"

LOL, she actually blames the victims, damn those loose German women flaunting their smartphones in front of poor migrants(who arent migrants, we dont know who they are remember) and then says, stopping mass immigration wont stop it, only obviously it will as none of these chaps would have been in Germany....



"Lets not shy away" she began, before spending the entire article doing just that, lets talk about the "right wing" and their "xenophobia",not the actual rapes or sexual assault.. And we cant stop mass immigration, the backgrounds of the attackers are unknown, it was only a mugging, was it really sexual assault?"

Yeah top class journo, really dealt with the issue.

Nodin

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

...........


Yes, everyone who is opposed to mass immigration is a xenophobe racist, and a mass rape is "Christmas time" for them...seriously, thats an insane statement.
.

That isn't what they stated though

"For xenophobes and racists, or merely anyone opposed to immigration, this story is Christmas come a week late."

....seeing as you posted the actual statement, its a bit mad you could come to your reading of it.

KomradeBishop

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

Yes, because that is a sane article
...

I'm not going to debate the article with you - since the mere existence of the article (regardless of my or your opinion of it) debunks your post, I don't need to.

JPNelsforearm

Nodin wrote: »

That isn't what they stated though

"For xenophobes and racists, or merely anyone opposed to immigration, this story is Christmas come a week late."

....seeing as you posted the actual statement, its a bit mad you could come to your reading of it.

Cmon, shes conflating racism and xenophobia with anyone opposed to immigration, and then suggesting that the rape and sexual assault of women is a positive them in their minds. She doesnt have to open with that statement


Seriously, how can you defend that statement.

JPNelsforearm

KomradeBishop wrote: »

I'm not going to debate the article with you - since the mere existence of the article (regardless of my or your opinion of it) debunks your post, I don't need to.

Read my post again, I specifically pointed to the feminism portal on the guardian, because they had heaps of articles on the rape that wasnt in the Rolling stone, rape culture etc yet not a single one for a real mass rape and sexual assault. Its fully baked left wing as the title of the thread suggests.

I know the guardian belatedly has put up articles on Cologne about seven days after it happened...

I mean, they had an article on a cricketer asking a reporter out on a date on the day it happened...

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/commentisfree+world/feminism

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/05/chris-gayle-if-mel-mclaughlin-had-bright-red-cheeks-she-wasnt-blushing-she-was-angry

Seems women being raped isnt considered a feminist issue when the rapers are not the usual punching bag of college age white males..

The Randy Riverbeast

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

Cmon, shes conflating racism and xenophobia with anyone opposed to immigration, and then suggesting that the rape and sexual assault of women is a positive them in their minds. She doesnt have to open with that statement


Seriously, how can you defend that statement.

The opposing immigration crowd does include racists, can hardly want to treat immigrants in one manner due to some of them causing problems and yet want a free pass when some member of your own group cause problems.

The sooner this victim complex is dropped and people move away from the racists the better.

KomradeBishop

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

Read my post again, I specifically pointed to the feminism portal on the guardian, because they had heaps of articles on the rape that wasnt in the Rolling stone, rape culture etc yet not a single one for a real mass rape and sexual assault. Its fully baked left wing as the title of the thread suggests.

I know the guardian belatedly has put up articles on Cologne about seven days after it happened...

I mean, they had an article on a cricketer asking a reporter out on a date on the day it happened...

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/commentisfree+world/feminism

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/05/chris-gayle-if-mel-mclaughlin-had-bright-red-cheeks-she-wasnt-blushing-she-was-angry

Seems women being raped isnt considered a feminist issue when the rapers are not the usual punching bag of college age white males..

You've got a feminist Guardian writer, who contributes to the feminist portal, writing an article about Cologne - and you're trying to claim 'bias' just because she didn't label the article with the 'feminist' keyword.

Back when Greece was imploding economically last year, the Guardian would regularly forget to tag their Greece live-blogs as being in the Greece category - this isn't some ridiculous feminist conspiracy-of-silence.

All news media are said to have not reported on this until January 5th - which is the day the Guardian first reported on it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Year's_Eve_sexual_assaults_in_Germany#Media
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/05/germany-crisis-cologne-new-years-eve-sex-attacks

You're just completely making stuff up from nothing, to hysterically attack feminism...it kind of beggars belief that you're even trying to make such a sub-atomically-thin connection like this.

JPNelsforearm

How am I "hysterically attacking feminism", this is the biggest women's issue story of the year and the guardian feminists, who can write all manner of nonsense for weeks on end under the "feminism" banner,cannot muster a single article on the issue(or literally a single article if we count the one above)? How many articles did the Rolling stone non rape generate? How many rape culture articles are there? Here you have rape culture in action, write about it. Its completely a fair point to make.

jackofalltrades

pH wrote: »

Ahh, but they don't want to talk about it:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/08/cologne-attacks-hard-questions-new-years-eve

It's some pile of drivel alright, using all the fallacious reasoning she can to avoid talking about the incident.
Looks like people really took to the comments section and Twitter to really tell her how they feel about her article.

Here's another "Journalist" using the incident to push their own agenda.
Apparently the fact that the perpetrators are men is the most significant issue. :rolleyes:
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/we-should-look-to-the-gender-of-the-cologne-attackers-not-their-race-a6801281.html#commentsDiv

KomradeBishop wrote: »

All news media are said to have not reported on this until January 5th - which is the day the Guardian first reported on it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Year's_Eve_sexual_assaults_in_Germany#Media
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/05/germany-crisis-cologne-new-years-eve-sex-attacks

You sure about that?

KomradeBishop

jackofalltrades wrote: »

You sure about that?

No actually, looks like I misread that - there was some reporting of it, and from what I can see by a Google search limited within dates from 30th Dec to Jan 3rd/4th, it didn't seem to be very widely reported in many newspapers.

Can't really single out the Guardian on that - for whatever reason, it's a news story that took a long time to get out properly.

Nodin

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

Cmon, shes conflating racism and xenophobia with anyone opposed to immigration,.

Had she wanted to do that she would have used the word "and" rather than "or". I am confused as to why you object to the supposed conflation anyway. I'd only be offended if I thought I was included in the part with the racists, whereas, well............

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

and then suggesting that the rape and sexual assault of women is a positive them in their minds. She doesnt have to open with that statement
.

What?

Nodin

jackofalltrades wrote: »

It's some pile of drivel alright, using all the fallacious reasoning she can to avoid talking about the incident.
Looks like people really took to the comments section and Twitter to really tell her how they feel about her article.

Here's another "Journalist" using the incident to push their own agenda.
Apparently the fact that the perpetrators are men is the most significant issue. :rolleyes:
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/we-should-look-to-the-gender-of-the-cologne-attackers-not-their-race-a6801281.html#commentsDiv


You sure about that?

Aha.

Ahahahaha.

*ahem

Shrap

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

How am I "hysterically attacking feminism", this is the biggest women's issue story of the year and the guardian feminists, who can write all manner of nonsense for weeks on end under the "feminism" banner,cannot muster a single article on the issue(or literally a single article if we count the one above)? How many articles did the Rolling stone non rape generate? How many rape culture articles are there? Here you have rape culture in action, write about it. Its completely a fair point to make.

How are systemic mass sexual assaults and violence just a "women's issue story" exactly? I would have thought that although the victims of this extreme harassment are exclusively women, the "story" is more about an organised attack on the heart of our culture of equality. As such, why are you pointing the finger exclusively at "guardian feminists" for insufficient reporting? Surely male reporters could come in for as much stick here. Or perhaps you have a bee in your bonnet :rolleyes:

MrPudding

Shrap wrote: »

How are systemic mass sexual assaults and violence just a "women's issue story" exactly? I would have thought that although the victims of this extreme harassment are exclusively women, the "story" is more about an organised attack on the heart of our culture of equality. As such, why are you pointing the finger exclusively at "guardian feminists" for insufficient reporting? Surely male reporters could come in for as much stick here. Or perhaps you have a bee in your bonnet :rolleyes:

In fairness, I would guess that if male reporters made too much of it they would likely be told to check their privilege and then receive a torrent of abuse.

MrP

JPNelsforearm

Shrap wrote: »

How are systemic mass sexual assaults and violence just a "women's issue story" exactly? I would have thought that although the victims of this extreme harassment are exclusively women, the "story" is more about an organised attack on the heart of our culture of equality. As such, why are you pointing the finger exclusively at "guardian feminists" for insufficient reporting? Surely male reporters could come in for as much stick here. Or perhaps you have a bee in your bonnet :rolleyes:

Its moreso the case that a newspaper with a section that always reports on "rape culture" and any harassment, sexual or otherwise from a feminist perspective has declined to do so under that banner. Any major rape story has been covered, this hasnt, obviously because it concerns immigrants and Islam.

And yes, its is a womens issue, along with being a law and order and immigration issue. The latter perspectives are being covered in Guardian, that was not what my post was about, its the hypocrisy, google the Guardians hysterical coverage of the Rolling Stone fake rape in the feminist section. They covered it extensively from a feminist perspective.

Shrap

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

Its moreso the case that a newspaper with a section that always reports on "rape culture" and any harassment, sexual or otherwise from a feminist perspective has declined to do so under that banner. Any major rape story has been covered, this hasnt, obviously because it concerns immigrants and Islam.

And yes, its is a womens issue, along with being a law and order and immigration issue. The latter perspectives are being covered in Guardian, that was not what my post was about, its the hypocrisy, google the Guardians hysterical coverage of the Rolling Stone fake rape in the feminist section. They covered it extensively from a feminist perspective.

I take your point about the Guardian's hypocrisy tbf. However, no, this is not a women's issue. This is a cultural, policing and legal issue. Just because the victims of this issue are women, it does not follow that this is just a women's issue, any more than it follows that its just a men's issue because all the perpetrators are men.

JPNelsforearm

Nodin wrote: »

What?

She is implying that hundreds of women being raped is "christmas", viewed as a good thing, by people who are anti immigration.. Because a sane person would welcome that happening just so they can slightly more facts on their side.....

"The mass rape is Christmas for feminists who like to talk about rape culture"

Its a weird way of phrasing that you wouldnt use unless you want to put "the opposition" in an negative light, which was clearly her intent, given the laughable slant to her article. Standard lefty fears of the imaginary right wing etc, barely discussing the issue or immigration.

Shrap

MrPudding wrote: »

In fairness, I would guess that if mail reporters made too much of it they would likely be told to check their privilege and then receive a torrent of abuse.

MrP

Mail reporters (male and female) should always check their privilege, in fairness. And frequently deserve a torrent of abuse.

MrPudding

Shrap wrote: »

Mail reporters (male and female) should always check their privilege, in fairness. And frequently deserve a torrent of abuse.

I meant male... But I would agree that Mail reporters, in general, deserve any abuse they get.

MrP

Shrap

MrPudding wrote: »

I meant male...

MrP

Ooh Well then I don't agree with you.

JPNelsforearm

Shrap wrote: »

I take your point about the Guardian's hypocrisy tbf. However, no, this is not a women's issue. This is a cultural, policing and legal issue. Just because the victims of this issue are women, it does not follow that this is just a women's issue, any more than it follows that its just a men's issue because all the perpetrators are men.

I dont think I said it was just/only a womans issue, if I did, I didnt mean that.Its obviously a cultural/policing/legal/immigration etc issue, Im not pigeonholing it, people can write from whatever perspectice they want.

My point was simply, as I outlined above, a newspaper section that concerns itself with rape/rape culture and has explicitly made it a feminist issue, is selectively ignoring a massive example of rape culture in action after writing about it for years... Thats it, as I said in my OP, cognitive dissonance.

Nodin

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

She is implying that hundreds of women being raped is "christmas", viewed as a good thing, by people who are anti immigration..
.

No, shes essentially saying it means they've now mud to sling at immigrants which was unexpected. You really are scraping the bottom now.

Shrap

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

I dont think I said it was just/only a womans issue, if I did, I didnt mean that.Its obviously a cultural/policing/legal/immigration etc issue, Im not pigeonholing it, people can write from whatever perspectice they want.

Well, my perspective is that it is not a women's issue at all, any more than it is a men's issue. I see no reason to describe it thus.

My point was simply, as I outlined above, a newspaper section that concerns itself with rape/rape culture and has explicitly made it a feminist issue, is selectively ignoring a massive example of rape culture in action after writing about it for years... Thats it, as I said in my OP, cognitive dissonance.

And I take this point. However, seeing as it is not IMO a women's issue perhaps they're getting it right at last, although their failure to report on it as a feminist issue can be called hypocritical in the light of their usual reporting.

JPNelsforearm

Nodin wrote: »

No, shes essentially saying it means they've now mud to sling at immigrants which was unexpected. You really are scraping the bottom now.

No, because one just has to look at rape stats across Europe to find "mud", take Finland, 3% of the population are responsible for about thirty percent of rapes, guess the make up of that three percent... This didnt need to happen for people to have "ammunition" to use against proponents of mass immigration, we already know the facts.

Mass rape/sexual assault isnt "christmas", its a horrible way to phrase something and you know it.

Nodin

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

No, because one just has to look at rape stats across Europe to find "mud", take Finland, 3% of the population are responsible for about thirty percent of rapes, guess the make up of that three percent... This didnt need to happen for people to have "ammunition" to use against proponents of mass immigration, we already know the facts.

Mass rape/sexual assault isnt "christmas", its a horrible way to phrase something and you know it.

No agenda there, no sir.....

MrPudding

Nodin wrote: »

No agenda there, no sir.....

No agenda where?

MrP

jackofalltrades

Nodin wrote: »

Aha.

Ahahahaha.

*ahem

Nodin wrote: »

No agenda there, no sir.....

Is this your newest style of Ad Hominem attack?
Just accuse someone of having an agenda, like that's supposed to be a rebuttal to their arguments or something.

Nodin

jackofalltrades wrote: »

Is this your newest style of Ad Hominem attack?
Just accuse someone of having an agenda, like that's supposed to be a rebuttal to their arguments or something.

Well its more to point out that people are using the attacks to further their agenda, be it anti-feminist, anti-refugee or anti-muslim, and thus them giving out about others hijacking the event for their own purposes is a bit much.

KomradeBishop

Yea and the connection between the original event/issue, and hijacking it as an attack on feminists - with this, and a lot of other reflexive attacks on feminism - always seem to have an air of underpants-gnome logic to it: "I spilt my coffee - ??? - bloody feminists!"

MrPudding

Nodin wrote: »

Well its more to point out that people are using the attacks to further their agenda, be it anti-feminist, anti-refugee or anti-muslim, and thus them giving out about others hijacking the event for their own purposes is a bit much.

OK, if we leave agenda aside, how does one talk about things like those rape stats from Finland? Assuming they are correct, are they worth talking about? Can they be talked about without being accused of having another agenda, being anti-emigration or being racist?

In what terms can we talk about what happened in Koln?

MrP