Fully Baked Left Wing Vegan Cookies

MrPudding

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Yea and the connection between the original event/issue, and hijacking it as an attack on feminists - with this, and a lot of other reflexive attacks on feminism - always seem to have an air of underpants-gnome logic to it: "I spilt my coffee - ??? - bloody feminists!"

OK, perhaps I am simply not familiar enough with jackofalltrades, but I did not see his post as, necessarily anti-feminist. Is it not worth pointing out certain writers have been unusually quiet and reserved about this particular incident, or chain of incidents?

MrP

Nodin

MrPudding wrote: »

OK, if we leave agenda aside, how does one talk about things like those rape stats from Finland? Assuming they are correct, are they worth talking about?

Based on experience I'd say we'll be off Finland and skipping over to Sweden in no time at all.

They may or may not be correct, and given the difficulties regarding differing definitions, forms of recording and finding English language sources it could well probably prove almost impossible to tell. Were this an honest effort to discuss a problem it would be fine all the same, but here we've had a poster who has just pages previously outlined his racist views. As a result its safe to say engaging in discussion with them is not worth it.

MrPudding wrote: »

In what terms can we talk about what happened in Koln?

MrP

It's own terms, I'd imagine.

KomradeBishop

MrPudding wrote: »

OK, perhaps I am simply not familiar enough with jackofalltrades, but I did not see his post as, necessarily anti-feminist. Is it not worth pointing out certain writers have been unusually quiet and reserved about this particular incident, or chain of incidents?

MrP

I wasn't really referring to his post, just a lot of the knee-jerk anti-feminism that abounds in general - particularly with what started this discussion.

JPNelsforearm

MrPudding wrote: »

OK, if we leave agenda aside, how does one talk about things like those rape stats from Finland? Assuming they are correct, are they worth talking about? Can they be talked about without being accused of having another agenda, being anti-emigration or being racist?

In what terms can we talk about what happened in Koln?

MrP

According to a study done by Martti Lehti et al (2014), 28 percent of the suspects for crimes associated with rape were first generation immigrants . The number of crimes per immigrant who lives in Finland is almost eight times as high as that of native Finns when looking at rape related crimes. It was also stated that the immigrants originating from Africa and Middle East commit the highest levels of crimes, with the level being seventeen times as high as that of native Finns. The offenses committed by the immigrant groups most often target the natives of the area

Here is the study, its a pdf with graphs, go to page 23 and throw it all into google translate(well, cut and paste it in, in readable segments). Obviously google translate isnt perfect, but you get the picture, and numbers are numbers, so you get the figures. Go across pretty much all countries(with substantial immigrant presence) in Europe and its the same story.

http://www.optula.om.fi/material/attachments/optula/julkaisut/tutkimuksia-sarja/XZ5bk8f2H/265_Lehti_ym_2014.pdf

jackofalltrades

Nodin wrote: »

Well its more to point out that people are using the attacks to further their agenda, be it anti-feminist, anti-refugee or anti-muslim, and thus them giving out about others hijacking the event for their own purposes is a bit much.

Prove where I've used this incident to further any of the above?
It's nothing more than a slanderous claim.
One that you're obviously hoping I'm going to defend to suit your agenda.
Which is doing anything to stop people discussing opinions that don't suit your worldview, judging by your contributions to this thread.

Based on experience I'd say we'll be off Finland and skipping over to Sweden in no time at all.

They may or may not be correct, and given the difficulties regarding differing definitions, forms of recording and finding English language sources it could well probably prove almost impossible to tell. Were this an honest effort to discuss a problem it would be fine all the same, but here we've had a poster who has just pages previously outlined his racist views. As a result its safe to say engaging in discussion with them is not worth it.

Similar claims have been brought up before and proved in threads that you've have participated in.
I think you knew he could prove his point, which is why you're trying to encourage people to ignore this poster.

It's own terms, I'd imagine.

Nonsense, you're against people even discussing the articles in the News media about the event.

Links234

https://twitter.com/frankieboyle/status/685952569055776769

Nodin

jackofalltrades wrote: »

Prove where I've used this incident to further any of the above?
................

Back here, taken with your previous posts on feminism
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=98344678&postcount=790

Nothing has been "proved" re Sweden because it has a very different method of dealing with crimes of a sexual nature.

fisgon

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

Here is the study, its a pdf with graphs, go to page 23 and throw it all into google translate(well, cut and paste it in, in readable segments). Obviously google translate isnt perfect, but you get the picture, and numbers are numbers, so you get the figures. Go across pretty much all countries(with substantial immigrant presence) in Europe and its the same story.

http://www.optula.om.fi/material/attachments/optula/julkaisut/tutkimuksia-sarja/XZ5bk8f2H/265_Lehti_ym_2014.pdf

There is an English summary of this report at the end. It includes the following...
"The criminal involvement of immigrant groups, thus, varies considerably. There are groups with crime and victimization rates that are higher than the corresponding rate in the majority populations. Meanwhile, other immigrant groups manifest below average offending and victimization risks."

It also says that the majority of crime perpetrated by immigrants is within their own community, so immigrants are actually disproportionately victimized by crime.

Also, if there are certain immigrant groups that have higher crime rates, it is not exactly difficult to work out why. Immigrants and their children are generally not integrated into the native population, they are often economically disadvantaged, maybe don't speak the language, can be on the margins of society. And being on the margins and not being integrated is a recipe for social disadvantage, exclusion and possibly falling into crime.

It is an argument for better integration rather than against immigration. Also, as the summary shows, grouping people into "immigrants", as if they were all the same, is a gross simplification, and misses the point completely.

A Primal Nut

The argument falls down because it is only immigrants from certain places who are overrepresented and others from other places are under represented.

There are issues with how women are treated in Islam and how women are viewed by men in the middle east that conflict with western values. Nobody has been able to say why they think these issues will disappear when they move to Europe. Most peoples values in these issues are set when they were young and is influenced by their parents ...all the integration in the world is not going to change that.

MrPudding

A Primal Nut wrote: »

The argument falls down because it is only immigrants from certain places who are overrepresented and others from other places are under represented.

There are issues with how women are treated in Islam and how women are viewed by men in the middle east that conflict with western values. Nobody has been able to say why they think these issues will disappear when they move to Europe. Most peoples values in these issues are set when they were young and is influenced by their parents ...all the integration in the world is not going to change that.

Is there perhaps also a further issue in that integration can only happen when those concerned want to integrate? If a particular group of people don't actually want to integrate, even if the opportunity is there, then there will be no integration.

MrP

Nodin

A Primal Nut wrote: »

The argument falls down because it is only immigrants from certain places who are overrepresented and others from other places are under represented.

There are issues with how women are treated in Islam and how women are viewed by men in the middle east that conflict with western values. Nobody has been able to say why they think these issues will disappear when they move to Europe. Most peoples values in these issues are set when they were young and is influenced by their parents ...all the integration in the world is not going to change that.

You didn't read the report, did you?

A Primal Nut

I don't think there is any correlation between poverty and extremism. Most Europeans who went to fight for ISIS were from middle class backgrounds often from families who from the outside appeared to be well integrated into the community.

MrPudding wrote: »

Is there perhaps also a further issue in that integration can only happen when those concerned want to integrate? If a particular group of people don't actually want to integrate, even if the opportunity is there, then there will be no integration.

MrP

Its an issue but even those who are very well integrated can still have extremist beliefs:

http://mashable.com/2014/10/15/childhood-friend-isis-jihadist/

I don't think anyone would argue that Jewish or Christian extremists tend to be poor or badly integrated. Muslim extremists are no different.

Nodin wrote: »

You didn't read the report, did you?

Just the part from Fisgon about different immigrant groups having different crime rates. Also from the report:

The study concludes with a discussion of how integration policies can
help reduce the risk of criminal victimization and offending in immigrant
groups. The findings point towards the importance of social policy
measures that promote the employment, education, residential desegregation,
and language-skills trainings of immigrants. Furthermore, it
might be beneficial if youth policies and youth work provide and promote
structured leisure activities among immigrant youths.

Sounds like an uphill battle ahead. I guess we in Europe have to put up a lot more terrorist attacks, rape, sexual assaults etc until our governments get all the above right. Collateral damage I guess.

jackofalltrades

Nodin wrote: »

Back here, taken with your previous posts on feminism
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=98344678&postcount=790

That link doesn't prove anything.
There's nothing in that post attacking feminism.
And because it's an ideology criticising it is fine anyway.

Nothing has been "proved" re Sweden because it has a very different method of dealing with crimes of a sexual nature.

Yes it has several times, it's discussed here as well.
The study cited above also shows considerable similarities between violent crime rates by certain migrant groups in Norway, Sweden and Finland.

pH

MrPudding wrote: »

Is there perhaps also a further issue in that integration can only happen when those concerned want to integrate? If a particular group of people don't actually want to integrate, even if the opportunity is there, then there will be no integration.

MrP

You've made a couple of posts about integration, but one of the main issues here is that the concept of "multiculturalism" as opposed to integration seems to have taken hold here in Europe.

It seems from evidence that multiculturalism just doesn't work, even places like Canada where we've had a single country with two distinct cultures, yes there's no violence, but it does seem that the fault lines that divide the country along language lines are a detriment to the country. Same could be said of Belgium, where again the "multiple cultures" are not a blessing, and our own little island is certainly hasn't been a shining example of how 2 cultures living side by side can produce a harmonious whole.

It's difficult to find any real success stories for multiculturalism, as was seen say in Scotland, even after hundreds of years of shared history, and being very similar to the rest of the UK in terms of race and religion - Scots still felt "different" enough to come close to severing ties last year, and may very well do so in the near future.

In general countries only seem to pull together well when the population seems to identify with state first. Where you have sub populations who identify with some other aspect first (be it their religion / race / homeland / language / heritage or whatever) and see that as more important to them culturally than the state they live in it seems nothing - not even as in Scotland hundreds of years of shared history and culture makes them identify as primarily "British"

I don't have any easy answers for this, I don't think it's actually about race or religion primarily - look as Scotland (though it can be), but surely when you look at cultural tensions and the desire for self-governance (aka partition) that exist in the UK/Canada/Belgium for example - given these peoples have centuries of shared culture and really very similar in terms of other factors that cause divisions in populations, surely people can see how many are sceptical of any rosy pictures of multicultural futures.

But anyway we all know we can't even have a discussion about this before the usual muppets start calling people racists.

Nodin

A Primal Nut wrote: »

Just the part from Fisgon about different immigrant groups having different crime rates. ..................

Just the part that suits you, you mean.

A primal nut wrote:

I guess we in Europe have to put up a lot more terrorist attacks, rape,
sexual assaults etc until our governments get all the above right.

The report also says that offending rates are down to one percent in the second generation. Isn't that gas? Of course its hard to read and find, but that's one of the joys and reasons people like to link foreign language documents 261 pages long.

Nodin

jackofalltrades wrote: »

That link doesn't prove anything.
There's nothing in that post attacking feminism.
And because it's an ideology criticising it is fine anyway.
.

So you stated
"Here's another "Journalist" using the incident to push their own agenda.
Apparently the fact that the perpetrators are men is the most significant issue. "
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=98344678&postcount=790

...on a thread entitled "full baked left wing vegan cookies" in reply to a post about feminists in the Guardian by Ph but aren't actually having a go at feminists.

jackofalltrades wrote: »

And because it's an ideology criticising it is fine anyway
.

But you aren't attacking it, you're just attacking it. Right. With ye now.

recedite

It has gradually emerged that the German police and also the German mainstream media covered up the Cologne sexual assaults, specifically because the perpetrators were migrants from North Africa/Middle East.
It was the German women who empowered themselves by posting their accounts on Facebook and Twitter.
So much so, that the mainstream media were forced to acknowledge the crimes and the Chief of Police was forced to resign.

I say fair play to them. They have been raised in an egalitarian society and have grown up confident and well educated. These other brutes have just arrived into the country, and attempted to insert themselves one step above the ladies in what they believe to be the local social hierarchy.

The Guardian article seems to expect European women to feel sorry for these chaps, coming from "repressive regimes, where they may at least have enjoyed superiority over women". And just allow themselves to be molested and walked over. It is indeed a fine example of leftist loonery to think such a thing.

jackofalltrades

Nodin wrote: »

So you stated
"Here's another "Journalist" using the incident to push their own agenda.
Apparently the fact that the perpetrators are men is the most significant issue. "
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=98344678&postcount=790

...on a thread entitled "full baked left wing vegan cookies" in reply to a post about feminists in the Guardian by Ph but aren't actually having a go at feminists.

But you aren't attacking it, you're just attacking it. Right. With ye now.

So you still can't prove your point that I've attacked feminism.
Because if I had I'm guessing at the least I might have used the actual word.

Nodin

jackofalltrades wrote: »

So you still can't prove your point that I've attacked feminism.
Because if I had I'm guessing at the least I might have used the actual word.

...yep, just like when the cavalry attack, its not actually an attack unless you use the words "cavalry" and "attack". Otherwise its horse mounted hugging by default.

JPNelsforearm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HdwDTIQGNk

TYT, "alternative" media platform, rofl, hard hitting journalism guize

MrPudding

Just came across this, have not finished it yet, and might not get a chance to for a while, so I thought I would share it first. A Guardian article about those events...

[EDIT] It has my new favourite word. "Leftageddon".

MrP

recedite

MrPudding wrote: »

A Guardian article about those events...
MrP

It still ends in praise of Merkels policy to allow an unlimited number of completely unvetted migrants into the (formerly) borderless Schengen area of the EU.
Is this an unpology by the journalist as a supporter of the Merkel policy?

Men who have been raised to believe that only a worthless woman walks through the street alone – even when her head and body are covered – only come to an understanding that this is not the case through consistent intellectual effort. There’s no excuse for not making this effort. But the fact is this: some people will heavily resist it. That, too, is human.

Ah yeah, shur they're only human after all, who could blame them.
If you take this argument to its logical conclusion, the gates of every prison in Europe should be thrown open and the offenders let out.
Shur we'd all behave in the same way if we had their upbringing.
That may or may not be true, but it is irrelevant to the fact that ordinary people don't want them wandering the streets doing what they do.

recedite

What are the chances of these lads adopting the liberal and secular values of their destination countries through "consistent intellectual effort" ?
Would the next generation integrate, or would they become resentful?

Life in Ireland allows integration into a Muslim community in a western nation without having to fear the pressure to assimilate into Irish culture.

Thanks to state funded segregated religious schools etc.. Hijra

"Integrated" German Muslims think "integration" means avoiding the natives.

Lack of integration means brutish behaviours can continue into the next generation and beyond.

IMHO some people have come here and settled in well, predominantly those from similar cultural background such as Poland and other Baltic states, and even further afield such as Romania (but not so much the Roma) and from India. People from other cultures have had more of a problem, but they sometimes abandoned their old culture because they were so few in number.
At some point though, perhaps at 2-3% of the population, a critical mass develops which allows them to assert and maintain their own culture in a completely segregated little world of their own.

Nodin

recedite wrote: »

What are the chances of these lads adopting the liberal and secular values of their destination countries through "consistent intellectual effort" ?
Would the next generation integrate, or would they become resentful?
Thanks to state funded segregated religious schools etc.. Hijra

"Integrated" German Muslims think "integration" means avoiding the natives.

Lack of integration means brutish behaviours can continue into the next generation and beyond.

IMHO some people have come here and settled in well, predominantly those from similar cultural background such as Poland and other Baltic states, and even further afield such as Romania (but not so much the Roma) and from India. People from other cultures have had more of a problem, but they sometimes abandoned their old culture because they were so few in number.
At some point though, perhaps at 2-3% of the population, a critical mass develops which allows them to assert and maintain their own culture in a completely segregated little world of their own.

You know you could change a few bits of that and it would match the kind of thing formerly said about Jews and Catholics.

silverharp

Nodin wrote: »

You know you could change a few bits of that and it would match the kind of thing formerly said about Jews and Catholics.

That doesn't fly or isn't relevant as these views are against competing religions . today for instance while there might be a religious right in the US that sees Islam as a threat to christianity there are good secular reasons for not wanting to see a caste system develop in Europe . I travel a lot to Germany and there already is a soft caste system in place in terms of where people live or where they send their kids to school.

recedite

Its a question of how tolerant you want to be of intolerance.
The Christian Brothers became an anachronism in modern society, because their culture was too brutish and disciplinarian. They were fine when compared to the likes of Mussolini, Franco and Hitler but they did not fit in with the more liberal, lefty and secular world of post WW2 Europe. Ireland may have been a couple of decades behind, but the CB's could not have survived as an institution, unless they changed completely.
If it was a good thing to hound them out, then why would you want to import and implant an even more brutish culture?
I don't think Jews ever reached the critical mass in Ireland to set up sustainable segregated communities, and even if they had done so, their cultural values did not tend to clash with those of the society around them.

I realise Nodin that you have a crusade, a jihad even, going on against racism. Which is fine, and I respect that.
I'm differentiating between on the one hand, a person who is coming here from an Islamic country who is prepared to live by the principles and values that we have established (respect for women, equal right for gays, jews etc.)
And on the other hand, those who come here with no intention of integrating, but instead are intent on setting up separate communities comprised of self-contained housing, schools and religious centres, from where a different and incompatible set of values can be perpetuated and spread.

Nodin

silverharp wrote: »

That doesn't fly or isn't relevant as these views are against competing religions . today for instance while there might be a religious right in the US that sees Islam as a threat to christianity there are good secular reasons for not wanting to see a caste system develop in Europe . I travel a lot to Germany and there already is a soft caste system in place in terms of where people live or where they send their kids to school.

......so its ok if you come out with bigotry from a secular perspective......

silverharp

Nodin wrote: »

......so its ok if you come out with bigotry from a secular perspective......

I'll just interpret bigotry from you as not wanting to engage. Its not about bigotry its about seeing a group of people fail in the society they have moved too. The whole point of people migrating is to see their kids have more chances than they ever had, this is being undermined by being tied into Islam.

Nodin

silverharp wrote: »

I'll just interpret bigotry from you as not wanting to engage. Its not about bigotry its about seeing a group of people fail in the society they have moved too. The whole point of people migrating is to see their kids have more chances than they ever had, this is being undermined by being tied into Islam.

...I'll leave you the fact that about half French muslims are non-practicing. Have a think on that one.

Nodin

recedite wrote: »

It has gradually emerged that the German police and also the German mainstream media covered up the Cologne sexual assaults, specifically because the perpetrators were migrants from North Africa/Middle East.
It was the German women who empowered themselves by posting their accounts on Facebook and Twitter.
So much so, that the mainstream media were forced to acknowledge the crimes and the Chief of Police was forced to resign.
.

None of that happened. The police chief resigned because he hadn't enough men on duty.

The first reports were on the second of january
http://www.rp-online.de/nrw/panorama/koeln-serienweise-uebergriffe-auf-frauen-am-bahnhof-aid-1.5665055
first arrests on the third
http://www.rp-online.de/nrw/staedte/koeln/hauptbahnhof-koeln-uebergriffe-auf-frauen-polizei-nimmt-fuenf-maenner-fest-aid-1.5665287