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silverharp

Nodin wrote: »

...I'll leave you the fact that about half French muslims are non-practicing. Have a think on that one.

sure but what does that mean? do they automatically move out of muslim areas and fully embrace western values etc ? and I am sure some % do. but I'd guess there is a lot of keeping the head down, having their kids still be immersed in islamic culture. What I could see happening in Germany is an influx of fanatics that start taking over Islamic culture and polarising it even more.
Western societies are about social mobility,anything that undermines that for large groups of people is a negative for that society.

recedite

Nodin wrote: »

None of that happened. The police chief resigned because he hadn't enough men on duty.

The first reports were on the second of january
http://www.rp-online.de/nrw/panorama/koeln-serienweise-uebergriffe-auf-frauen-am-bahnhof-aid-1.5665055

That article says "nearly 30" people were pickpocketed, and some were touched inappropriately, by a group of "2-20 men".
That is obviously grossly inaccurate, and does not really convey the meaning of what actually happened, or anything very extraordinary for a large city.

Irish times reports that

At a press conference, Cologne police chief Wolfgang Ebers acknowledged the January 1st police statement had been completely untrue. However, he denied his force was overwhelmed or that they had any knowledge of asylum seekers among the suspects.
He was soon contradicted in those claims – not by social media but by Germany’s mainstream media: Bild and Spiegel Online. On January 5th and 6th they published leaked reports from frustrated police officers on duty.
Those reports revealed the shocking chaos in Cologne that night, distressing details of attacks against women and police battles with the perpetrators, including many asylum seekers.

robindch

Nodin wrote: »

[...] bigotry [...]

silverharp wrote: »

[...] bigotry [...]

Folks - accusations of bigotry don't go down well regardless of who makes them - please drop the term and try something less likely to lead to a breach of the peace.

robindch

recedite wrote: »

It has gradually emerged that the German police and also the German mainstream media covered up the Cologne sexual assaults, specifically because the perpetrators were migrants from North Africa/Middle East.

It seems that the anti-immigrant group, Pegida, were one of the reasons that allegations of a cover-up became widespread:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/claim-of-media-cover-up-on-cologne-sex-attacks-is-nonsense-1.2492574

silverharp

robindch wrote: »

It seems that the anti-immigrant group, Pegida, were one of the reasons that allegations of a cover-up became widespread:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/claim-of-media-cover-up-on-cologne-sex-attacks-is-nonsense-1.2492574

And now pegida look like the good guys. The media have lost a lot of credibility over this and the general reporting style last year. It doesn't take a genius to work out that if you give up the centre ground the extremes will happily claim it.

Shrap

robindch wrote: »

It seems that the anti-immigrant group, Pegida, were one of the reasons that allegations of a cover-up became widespread:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/claim-of-media-cover-up-on-cologne-sex-attacks-is-nonsense-1.2492574

Interesting and not wholly unfamiliar. Cries of media bias and cover up are the go-to allegation for many folks who hold unpalatable views, if our resident fundie David Quinn is anything to go by. Guarantees airtime and clickbait.

JPNelsforearm

silverharp wrote: »

And now pegida look like the good guys. The media have lost a lot of credibility over this and the general reporting style last year. It doesn't take a genius to work out that if you give up the centre ground the extremes will happily claim it.

When breitbart are breaking stories before every major english language broadsheet, there is a problem. The budgets arent even comparable, it just plays into the theory that its not news they print, its an agenda.

Nodin

recedite wrote: »

That article says "nearly 30" people were pickpocketed, and some were touched inappropriately, by a group of "2-20 men".
That is obviously grossly inaccurate, and does not really convey the meaning of what actually happened, or anything very extraordinary for a large city.

Irish times reports that

Because it was published early on, before others came forward.

robindch

Shrap wrote: »

Cries of media bias and cover up are the go-to allegation [...]

Given the high number of media outlets, their varied ownerships and political, or apolotical, viewpoints, I'm not at all sure how a "media coverup" could realistically be organized, or take place, once it has.

Same for "media bias" at a global level - another high-temperature allegation which seems to become less and less real once one starts poking around.

PopePalpatine

robindch wrote: »

Given the high number of media outlets, their varied ownerships and political, or apolotical, viewpoints, I'm not at all sure how a "media coverup" could realistically take place.

Wasn't it Bild or some other German tabloid that broke the news of the NYE attacks, too, rather than social media? EDIT: Just seen recedite's link.

Nodin

silverharp wrote: »

sure but what does that mean? do they automatically move out of muslim areas and fully embrace western values etc ? and I am sure some % do. but I'd guess there is a lot of keeping the head down, having their kids still be immersed in islamic culture. What I could see happening in Germany is an influx of fanatics that start taking over Islamic culture and polarising it even more.
Western societies are about social mobility,anything that undermines that for large groups of people is a negative for that society.

"fanatics"? The last incident in Germany involved drunken young fellahs and thugs. It's not exactly in the Koran that.

JPNelsforearm

Nodin wrote: »

"fanatics"? The last incident in Germany involved drunken young fellahs and thugs. It's not exactly in the Koran that.

Ah yes, the old "unless its explicitly laid in the koran the mohammedans aren't to blame", no true followers of Islam, and all that.

Just drunken young fellows and thugs, we have a load of both in Ireland and doesnt the same thing happen with regularity.

silverharp

Nodin wrote: »

"fanatics"? The last incident in Germany involved drunken young fellahs and thugs. It's not exactly in the Koran that.

so far I have tried to keep the arguments to believers of the religion of peace. Should I now be concerned about the people you told werent believers in France....make up your mind dude? :pac:

Nodin

silverharp wrote: »

so far I have tried to keep the arguments to believers of the religion of peace. Should I now be concerned about the people you told werent believers in France....make up your mind dude? :pac:

Why would you be concerned about French citizens of one particular ethnic background and no religion?

JPNelsonforearm wrote:

Ah yes, the old "unless its explicitly laid in the koran the mohammedans
aren't to blame", no true followers of Islam, and all that.

Fairly sure getting drunk and robbing people is explicitly forbidden.

He referred to "fanatics". While I trust that their may well be some who embrace the European subculture of fanatical boozing I would bet that he in fact was referring to 'religious fanatics'. While these have been known to shoot, bomb and kill in a number of ways, hanging round a train station in Germany while drunk, mugging people, throwing fireworks and attacking women is not a behaviour associated with same.

You can't be going on about how we're going to be turned into a caliphate by hardline Sunnis one minute and then claiming acts of thuggery and drunkenness are carried out by people with the same beliefs the next. You might have to come to the conclusion that they aren't all the same, at some point.

silverharp

Nodin wrote: »

Why would you be concerned about French citizens of one particular ethnic background and no religion?

none if they have integrated

Nodin wrote: »

Fairly sure getting drunk and robbing people is explicitly forbidden.

He referred to "fanatics". While I trust that their may well be some who embrace the European subculture of fanatical boozing I would bet that he in fact was referring to 'religious fanatics'. While these have been known to shoot, bomb and kill in a number of ways, hanging round a train station in Germany while drunk, mugging people, throwing fireworks and attacking women is not a behaviour associated with same.

when I said "fanatics" it wasnt the sex pests and thugs on NYE , Im referring to religious extremists that will have an effect on the Islamic culture in Germany in particular. Imagine mosques in Germany suddenly having an influx of hot heads and people that hate the West and start preaching more separation and stricter interpretations of Islam. Suddenly moderate or even ex muslims will be forced to conform

A Primal Nut

Nodin wrote: »

Why would you be concerned about French citizens of one particular ethnic background and no religion?



Fairly sure getting drunk and robbing people is explicitly forbidden.

He referred to "fanatics". While I trust that their may well be some who embrace the European subculture of fanatical boozing I would bet that he in fact was referring to 'religious fanatics'. While these have been known to shoot, bomb and kill in a number of ways, hanging round a train station in Germany while drunk, mugging people, throwing fireworks and attacking women is not a behaviour associated with same.

You can't be going on about how we're going to be turned into a caliphate by hardline Sunnis one minute and then claiming acts of thuggery and drunkenness are carried out by people with the same beliefs the next. You might have to come to the conclusion that they aren't all the same, at some point.

Look at ISIS for example, fanatics in one sense, but still serial rapists when it suits them. It's certainly a complicated ideology.

recedite

A Primal Nut wrote: »

still serial rapists when it suits them. It's certainly a complicated ideology.

A previously unknown word has recently appeared in Europe; Taharrush

The Federal Criminal Police Office (BKA), the main investigative authority in Germany, said in a response to Welt newspaper it knows sexual harassment of women in public is widespread in Arab countries, and that this is exactly what happened on New Year’s Eve in Cologne. Collective harassment is translated as “taharrush gamea”

Always good to learn something new from another culture.

Nodin

silverharp wrote: »

none if they have integrated

....which doubtless requires yet another set of hoops they have to jump through.

silverharp

Nodin wrote: »

....which doubtless requires yet another set of hoops they have to jump through.

Not really but I saw a stat that 70% of Muslims in France observe Ramadan ? So while I'm sure some fake it and munch into bacon sarnies at home are most Muslims still basically surrounded and locked into the culture or if they have kids and one of the parents is a social Muslim will the other be devout so locking the next generation in.
I just see millions of devout Muslims coming into Europe in the next few years is just going to unwind any trend of atheism in French or other European Muslims.

Nodin

silverharp wrote: »

Not really but I saw a stat that 70% of Muslims in France observe Ramadan ? So while I'm sure some fake it and munch into bacon sarnies at home are most Muslims still basically surrounded and locked into the culture or if they have kids and one of the parents is a social Muslim will the other be devout so locking the next generation in.
.

Would you care to do out a list of things you'd like them to do to render them acceptable in your eyes?

silverharp

Nodin wrote: »

Would you care to do out a list of things you'd like them to do to render them acceptable in your eyes?

if you look at Britain , Muslims underperform Hindus and Sikes. I'd imagine if muslims became more secular they would become more ambitious for their kids, wouldnt pull the girls out of school willy nilly and encourage their girls to become more productive and have their own careers instead of indoctrinating them in a religion that seals them off from society. it would start to break down this parallel dysfunctional society they have.

recedite

Nodin wrote: »

Would you care to do out a list of things you'd like them to do..

You could start by looking at the German requirements;

If you would like to live in Germany, you should learn German.
...Also, you should know certain things about Germany, for example, about its history, culture and its legal system. You will learn all this on the integration course

So, learn the language, do the integration course, learn about rights and responsibilities (learn that women have the right to walk around without being accompanied by a male owner, and without being sexually harassed) do some vocational training, be a good citizen.

Or do you think it unfair to make them jump through all these hoops?
The other unspoken problem is, what to do when people fail these requirements, or just refuse to go along with them.

Nodin

recedite wrote: »

You could start by looking at the German requirements;
So, learn the language, do the integration course, learn about rights and responsibilities (learn that women have the right to walk around without being accompanied by a male owner, and without being sexually harassed) do some vocational training, be a good citizen.

Or do you think it unfair to make them jump through all these hoops?
The other unspoken problem is, what to do when people fail these requirements, or just refuse to go along with them.

Lovely stuff. Is that what you think the attitude of the average German muslim is?

The French seem to be doing ok in many regards.

Nodin

silverharp wrote: »

if you look at Britain , Muslims underperform Hindus and Sikes. I'd imagine if muslims became more secular they would become more ambitious for their kids, wouldnt pull the girls out of school willy nilly and encourage their girls to become more productive and have their own careers instead of indoctrinating them in a religion that seals them off from society. it would start to break down this parallel dysfunctional society they have.

Sorry, but have you established a link between - very specifically - religously observant British muslims and underachievement in academia?

silverharp

Nodin wrote: »

Sorry, but have you established a link between - very specifically - religously observant British muslims and underachievement in academia?

with their girls it has to be a factor, ill listen to arguments about how a mother to be who has been pulled out of school and married up will make a good parent in a modern society. :pac: and thats without some of the illegal stuff they get up to , see below

At the end of the day social mobility is important, that means girls should have their own careers, get married later and put their hypergamous instincts to good use. Forced and arranged marriage ought to end.




http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/mehdi-hasan/british-muslims-child-marriage_b_4310440.html

First, a bit of background. The legal age for marriage in Britain is 16. Yet, back in October, I watched ITV's Exposure documentary, 'Forced To Marry', in which two undercover reporters, posing as the mother and brother of a 14-year-old Muslim girl, called 56 mosques across Britain to ask whether they would perform the girl's marriage. Shamefully, imams at 18 of those 56 mosques - or one in three - agreed to do so.

The imam of a mosque in Manchester was secretly recorded as saying that performing such a marriage would "not be a problem". An imam in Birmingham, despite being told that the girl didn't want to get married, could be heard saying: "She's 14. By sharia, grace of God, she's legal to get married. Obviously Islam has made it easy for us... We're doing it because it's okay through Islam."

Let's be clear: two-thirds of the imams refused to perform such marriages, with many making it clear they "found the request abhorrent". But here's the issue: a third of them didn't. A third of those imams hid behind their - my! - religion: "We're doing it because it's okay through Islam." Frustratingly, many Muslim scholars and seminaries still cling to the view that adulthood, and the age of sexual consent, rests only on biological puberty: that is, 12 to 15 for boys and nine to 15 for girls.

Nodin

silverharp wrote: »

with their girls it has to be a factor, ...........

So you're retracting your more general comment "I'd imagine if muslims became more secular they would become more ambitious for their kids"?

silverharp

Nodin wrote: »

So you're retracting your more general comment "I'd imagine if muslims became more secular they would become more ambitious for their kids"?

no, if their future mothers are better educated they will raise their sons better. I simply focused on an angle that would make it difficult for you to say I am wrong without doing some mental gymnastics

Nodin

silverharp wrote: »

no, if their future mothers are better educated they will raise their sons better. I simply focused on an angle that would make it difficult for you to say I am wrong without doing some mental gymnastics

You mean you decided to address an actual issue within the muslim community without indulging in generalisations. Progress, I suppose.

silverharp

Nodin wrote: »

You mean you decided to address an actual issue within the muslim community without indulging in generalisations. Progress, I suppose.

Do your posts have to drip with patronising attempts at put downs? On this thread I have approached this from the perspective of what is holding them back as a group relative to other immigrant groups and it comes down to the adherence to a 7th century ideology which is full on patriarchy. The views you have will just isolate Muslims and ring fence their religious power within their own communities.

Nodin

silverharp wrote: »

....... On this thread I have approached this from the perspective of what is holding them back as a group relative to other immigrant groups and it comes down to the adherence to a 7th century ideology which is full on patriarchy. The views you have will just isolate Muslims and ring fence their religious power within their own communities.

All I've seen is generalisations, stereotypes and far more claim than substance. The post referring to females being withdrawn from school was one of the first to actually refer to a specific genuine issue. If you wish to discuss it further, please fire ahead.