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Lurkio

Lurkio wrote: »

Pointing out the large hole in the far rights plot is akin to doing the same to a religious persons beliefs - as they aren't based on fact but emotion and faith, it doesn't affect them at all.

The exact same logic applies to both wings (this thread concerns the radical left, though the linked video is of course the radical right.).

The radical religious right appealed to authority to avoid facing up to rational debate. The radical left is appearing to appeal to 'comfort' in order to avoid facing up to rational debate.

Censoring views is not a pragmatic solution, showing them up for what they really are does indeed work wonders!

The "free market of ideas" is where ideas should live and die, Darwinian esque. Contrived 'markets' and 'safe spaces' are antithetical to this.

silverharp

Deleted User wrote: »

The radical religious right appealed to authority to avoid facing up to rational debate. The radical left is appearing to appeal to 'comfort' in order to avoid facing up to rational debate.

very nice summary

Lurkio

Deleted User wrote: »

The exact same logic applies to both wings (this thread concerns the radical left, though the linked video is of course the radical right.).

The radical religious right appealed to authority to avoid facing up to rational debate. The radical left is appearing to appeal to 'comfort' in order to avoid facing up to rational debate.

Censoring views is not a pragmatic solution, showing them up for what they really are does indeed work wonders!

The "free market of ideas" is where ideas should live and die, Darwinian esque. Contrived 'markets' and 'safe spaces' are antithetical to this.

But you can't show them up to people who "reason" that, which is my point. It's like water off a ducks back.

Lurkio

Deleted User wrote: »

The exact same logic applies to both wings (this thread concerns the radical left, though the linked video is of course the radical right.).

The radical religious right appealed to authority to avoid facing up to rational debate. The radical left is appearing to appeal to 'comfort' in order to avoid facing up to rational debate.

Censoring views is not a pragmatic solution, showing them up for what they really are does indeed work wonders!

The "free market of ideas" is where ideas should live and die, Darwinian esque. Contrived 'markets' and 'safe spaces' are antithetical to this.

But you can't show them up to people who "reason" that way, which is my point. It's like water off a ducks back.

Lurkio

Lurkio wrote: »

But you can't show them up to people who "reason" that way, which is my point. It's like water off a ducks back.

So what?

Does that mean that 'we' should give up trying to defeat their nonsense?

oldrnwiser posted an enormously detailed comment on JC's creationist thread which finished with him stating that he would have almost no confidence that what he was saying would be taken on board by JC himself, but that it was for the benefit of others who might be seeking answers and therefore what he was saying might still be of value to say.

I think that's a fairly appropriate comment to refer back to when discussing the idea of defeating nonsense that radical elements of society attempt to pervade. You might not convince the zealot, but you might convince or assist those seeking answers.

orubiru

Deleted User wrote: »

So what?

Does that mean that 'we' should give up trying to defeat their nonsense?

oldrnwiser posted an enormously detailed comment on JC's creationist thread which finished with him stating that he would have almost no confidence that what he was saying would be taken on board by JC himself, but that it was for the benefit of others who might be seeking answers and therefore what he was saying might still be of value to say.

I think that's a fairly appropriate comment to refer back to when discussing the idea of defeating nonsense that radical elements of society attempt to pervade. You might not convince the zealot, but you might convince or assist those seeking answers.

This is a really important point.

Maybe you can never sway those who are deeply entrenched but others will be watching the conversation and as long as you are fair, rational and honest there's a good chance that others will stop and think before "drinking the kool-aid".

silverharp

wont somebody thinks of the Lesbians? :rolleyes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmSVj4q3QaE

PopePalpatine

silverharp wrote: »

It seems to be more the SJW tactics of getting things shut down and phoning in bomb threats. Oddly enough I only stumbled over this whole area because of it. by and large you don't hear non feminists trying to no platform feminists etc. Even in the world of Youtube its guys like Thunderf00t that has to put up with SJW's trying to get him fired whereas I don't see a similar reaction to the lacy Greens of youtube. Much better to let them do their thing and refute it

Personally, as long as Thunderf00t is not creating a hostile work environment for his colleagues, regardless of their gender, then I agree that's a sh*tty move by the radfems.

As for why I brought up doxxing, I don't suppose you've heard of Register-Her?

JPNelsforearm

silverharp wrote: »

wont somebody thinks of the Lesbians? :rolleyes:

Cant be real

The Black Oil

Bill Maher's pretty sick of the 'check your white male privilege', brigade too.

Perverse narcissism is about right.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLD2xzAX8Aw

JPNelsforearm

Crowd of anti Trump "protesters" attack lone man walking to the Trump convention, the mean words the Trump man says, they are practically violence..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I68rqO9Y7v0

This thread should be renamed the degenerate left, because that is what they represent, a regression away from liberalism to barbarity.

silverharp

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Personally, as long as Thunderf00t is not creating a hostile work environment for his colleagues, regardless of their gender, then I agree that's a sh*tty move by the radfems.

As for why I brought up doxxing, I don't suppose you've heard of Register-Her?

no I hadnt but I see your post as an attempt to make a very small counter example equivalent to the general tendency of online feminists to go after men for often times just saying words. how many women who appeared on that site who seemed to have been in the public eye lost their jobs? or ended up in court even?

silverharp

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

Cant be real

there seems to be a demand for this type of manufactured outrage, according to the link "thousands" of lgbt folks were annoyed when a lesbian character was killed of in The 100. I'd assume the actual lgbt community have better thing to be doing andits the Tumblr loons that are annoyed


http://www.inquisitr.com/2897567/could-lexas-death-on-the-100-be-viewed-positively-by-the-lgbt-community/

PopePalpatine

silverharp wrote: »

no I hadnt but I see your post as an attempt to make a very small counter example equivalent to the general tendency of online feminists to go after men for often times just saying words. how many women who appeared on that site who seemed to have been in the public eye lost their jobs? or ended up in court even?

What a convenient qualifier, it's like neckbeards facilitating & partaking in stalking doesn't matter. :rolleyes:

stunmer

.....

silverharp

this made me chuckle

http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2016/05/06/meet_can_you_not_the_pac_dedicated_to_dissuading_straight_white_men_from.html

If you’re a straight white man who’s into progressive politics and you think you could really make a positive impact on this crazy world by running for Congress or your state legislature, Jack Teter and Kyle Huelsman have a novel idea for you: Don’t.

Teter and Huelsman, two Denver-based white men, are the founders of a new PAC dedicated to dissuading overconfident, underqualified straight white guys from clogging up the Democratic primaries and crowding out the women and people of color who’d be better for the job. The PAC is called Can You Not, and its site is a gold mine of delicious portmanteaux and tongue-in-cheek bons mots, plus one arresting photo of Ruth Bader Ginsburg (who once said there will be enough women on the Supreme Court “when there are nine”). The site boasts of (fake) alumni of the Can You Not program—young, all-American white guys from private East Coast colleges whose qualifications include “class president,” “Eagle Scout,” and “Americorps ’08-’10”—who decided not to run for office after all.

But be not fooled: This PAC is no joke. The founders registered Can You Not in Colorado last month and have started accepting donations, which will go to nonwhite, nonmale, and nonstraight candidates chosen by an advisory board of other nonwhite, nonmale, and nonstraight people.

robindch

Yours truly is in South Africa at the moment and on this morning's radio news, there was a long item about "rape culture" in all of South Africa's universities. Things kicked off last month when activists released a list of alleged rapists onto social media. The list promptly went viral and resulted in protests which caused Rhodes University to suspend all academic activity.

https://www.enca.com/south-africa/fed-rhodes-university-students-name-and-shame-rapists
http://mg.co.za/article/2016-04-20-rhodes-university-shut-down-as-anti-rape-protests-continue

In response, Rhodes U appointed a feminist and a lawyer to chair a committee to deal with the issue:

https://www.ru.ac.za/latestnews/rhodesuniversitycondemnsrapeandsexualviolence.html

Item (3) of the suggested terms of reference for the committee could have come from any feminist text:

The Committee wrote:

Recommend ways in which issues related to sexual violence, rape culture, and hetero-patriarchal gendered norms can be embedded in the curriculum and other activities in the university (e.g. Orientation week, residences, work with trade unions) in a sustained manner, and in a way that emphasises the prevention sexual violence and its locatedness within gendered power relations.

Lurkio

robindch wrote: »

Yours truly is in South Africa at the moment and on this morning's radio news, there was a long item about "rape culture" in all of South Africa's universities. Things kicked off last month when activists released a list of alleged rapists onto social media. The list promptly went viral and resulted in protests which caused Rhodes University to suspend all academic activity.

https://www.enca.com/south-africa/fed-rhodes-university-students-name-and-shame-rapists
http://mg.co.za/article/2016-04-20-rhodes-university-shut-down-as-anti-rape-protests-continue

In response, Rhodes U appointed a feminist and a lawyer to chair a committee to deal with the issue:

https://www.ru.ac.za/latestnews/rhodesuniversitycondemnsrapeandsexualviolence.html

Item (3) of the suggested terms of reference for the committee could have come from any feminist text:

Unfortunately my English is only honours leaving cert level and not up to that sort of thing at all at all. I would have expected far more grounded talk in South Africa, it has to be said, for obvious reasons.

silverharp

there was a storm over comments a white Judge said in SA recently. However as I gather rape is off the charts there , its not a totally unfounded assessment looking in


http://uk.businessinsider.com/white-south-african-judge-said-rape-is-a-part-of-black-culture-2016-5?r=US&IR=T

A racist Facebook conversation South African High Court Judge Mabel Jansen had last year with social rights activist Gillian Schutte was publicly posted by Schutte on Saturday, according to the Independent, and has led to a complaint being filed to South Africa's Judicial Service Commission.

In the Facebook exchange, Jansen said that rape is a part of black culture. "In their culture a woman is there to pleasure them," Jansen wrote. "Gang rapes of baby, daughter and mother is a pleasurable pastime," she added. She also said that she still has yet "to meet a black girl who was not raped at about 12."



Schutte's reasoning for posting the conversation is to show how systemic racism still is in a "post-liberation South Africa," which stems from "colonial tropes" that "undermine black movements and individuals who pose a threat to the status quo ... to the detriment of women who are victims of rape," according to her post.

On Sunday, Jansen defended herself on Twitter, saying that what she "stated confidentially to somebody in a position to help has been taken completely out of context and referred to specific court cases."

But Schutte said in her Facebook post it was an "inboxed version" of what Jansen already said in a public Facebook discussion.

Lurkio

silverharp wrote: »

there was a storm over comments a white Judge said in SA recently. However as I gather rape is off the charts there , its not a totally unfounded assessment looking in


http://uk.businessinsider.com/white-south-african-judge-said-rape-is-a-part-of-black-culture-2016-5?r=US&IR=T

It is, tbh, because you can find similar attitudes in other parts of the globe where there is no "black"/African population. Guatemala is the one that always springs to mind.

Christy42

silverharp wrote: »

there was a storm over comments a white Judge said in SA recently. However as I gather rape is off the charts there , its not a totally unfounded assessment looking in


http://uk.businessinsider.com/white-south-african-judge-said-rape-is-a-part-of-black-culture-2016-5?r=US&IR=T

Christ that judge is off her rocker. Seems to entirely dismiss any black victim of rape.
That is all types of horrifying.

JPNelsforearm

Christy42 wrote: »

Christ that judge is off her rocker. Seems to entirely dismiss any black victim of rape.
That is all types of horrifying.

You didnt get that at all... She doesnt dismiss anyone. You do know a large subsection of black SA has an ingrained and systemic rape culture, that is what the judge was pointing out, imagine your day job consisting of a steady stream of raped children..... with no end in sight and the numbers always increasing.

Here is a good summation of the entire thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDGvR00JMYc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFPVtB0lelc

Also

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4SS8uyhQnY

Lurkio

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

You didnt get that at all... She doesnt dismiss anyone. You do know a large subsection of black SA has an ingrained and systemic rape culture, that is what the judge was pointing out, imagine your day job consisting of a steady stream of raped children..... with no end in sight and the numbers always increasing.

If somebody mentioned rape culture in another context you'd amongst the first complaining.

robindch

silverharp wrote: »

there was a storm over comments a white Judge said in SA recently.

Yes, that was last week Far as I remember, she resigned or went on gardening leave. It's not news this week anyway.

silverharp wrote: »

However as I gather rape is off the charts there

Violence in general is off the charts, but I don't think that introducing the whole kit and kaboodle of abstracted feminist "rape culture" terminology is going to lessen violence against women - and especially, uploading unproven allegations of rape to social media websites and inflaming what is a combustible atmosphere.

On the contrary, it needs well-grounded education, economic equality, economic opportunity, good politicians, honest police and fair courts and frankly, it's struggling to find them.

JPNelsforearm

Lurkio wrote: »

If somebody mentioned rape culture in another context you'd amongst the first complaining.

Seriously? A bare glance at the respective figures, culture, general treatment of women, anything, then compare them to the "rape culture" ****e in the west, chalk and cheese. There is rape culture in the world, only its not in university campus's, its primarily in third world countries(aside from when we import it) and perpetrated by 3rd world cultures.

Lurkio

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

Seriously? A bare glance at the respective figures, culture, general treatment of women, anything, then compare them to the "rape culture" ****e in the west, chalk and cheese. There is rape culture in the world, only its not in university campus's, its primarily in third world countries(aside from when we import it) and perpetrated by 3rd world cultures.

Gas. Trying to cover xenophobia by trying to sound progressive yet posting borderline and actual racist videos - one an hour and a half long - is a balancing act you won't pull off.

JPNelsforearm

Lurkio wrote: »

Gas. Trying to cover xenophobia by trying to sound progressive yet posting borderline and actual racist videos - one an hour and a half long - is a balancing act you won't pull off.

Facts are racist, reality is racist na na na na na na *fingers in ears*. Nothing in those videos was incorrect.

Do you ever get sick of buying into an ideology that forces you to deny fact so you wont fall out with the comrades?

"trying to sound progressive"

I have not, and will never try to "sound progressive". Rape is bad, fake rape is bad also. "Shocker as person values truth and liberty at the expense of political correctness, in the current year of all years".

robindch

Lurkio wrote: »

Gas. Trying to cover xenophobia by trying to sound progressive yet posting borderline and actual racist videos - one an hour and a half long - is a balancing act you won't pull off.

JPNelsforearm wrote: »

Nothing in those videos was incorrect.

Might be an idea for both sides to (a) tone down the rhetoric and (b) JPNelsforearm - summarize those videos as I don't think anybody's going to spend 90 minutes watching them - I watched 90 seconds, skipped a few minutes, and didn't see much beyond a guy playing a musical instrument from the now-defunct state of Tanganyika.

KomradeBishop

^^ Ya that's a pet peeve of mine, I always label this as "Argument by YouTube", and refuse to engage with it - it's a special type of argument, which while not strictly fallacious, is as good as fallacious (especially seeing as the video itself almost always is), as the aim is to dump such a huge amount of propagandised video content on you, as to make it completely impractical for you to rebut it - then the person can derail the entire debate into whinging about you not watching a 90 minute long video, to avoid conceding anything.

It's something you see all the time from the mens rights posters - should be stamped down on more across boards, in the same way as link-dumping without providing your own opinion (and/or summarization) is.

JPNelsforearm

I dont mean to conduct argument by youtube, but when someone has done all your research and summed up the situation nicely...

The first two videos sum up the entire incident and the liberal reaction to it(as represented by "The Young Turks", the third is a summation of the situation in SA and includes all the data on rape in that country and the general direction in which the country is heading.