Formula 1 2015: General Discussion Thread

Zcott

Yep, but the battle between the two should be a good fight. And the real stories this year will be Ferrari vs Williams, and McLaren.

jayo26

Zcott wrote: »

Yep, but the battle between the two should be a good fight. And the real stories this year will be Ferrari vs Williams, and McLaren.

I agree I found last year very exciting so many little battles within teams. The obvious one hammilton and rosberg then Williams and ferrari and also ricardo against vettle. I think kimi might be up for the fight this year and all the new kids look quick obviously it will be battle between the mercs up front but hopefully it be as fun as last year.

PopePalpatine

Well, that was a bit of a damp squib of a race. I only started watching from lap 4 on the Sky F1 replay, so I didn't see the screw-up from Red Bull and McLaren.

Seannew1

As far as Australian grand prix goes, that was by far one of the worst ones I've seen by some margin, really disappointing race. Disappointed by Red Bull's pace and Rosberg's pace over the weekend. Also, felt sorry for Button too. A driver of his talent should not get excited on the radio when his team informs him points are on the cards when there are so many cars dropping out. Oh well, onwards and upwards to the next race!

tripperman

did anyone else listen to JB this weekend and get reminded of the horror cars honda gave him in 07 and 08?

smellslikeshoes

Just too many guys missing today that are important to the show. Alonso, Bottas and Magnussen weren't racing and Button might aswell have not been there with what pace he had.

Last year I think we got lucky at the amount of times the Mercs were fighting or a Merc was coming through the field. This year I think we are going to have to rely on the fighting from 3-10 much more, hopefully Mclaren can get themselves sorted because having guys like Button and Alonso at the back on their own is going to really take from the show.

Myrddin

smellslikeshoes wrote: »

hopefully Mclaren can get themselves sorted because having guys like Button and Alonso at the back on their own is going to really take from the show.

Agreed, I fear this season is a complete write off though for McLaren...they've so much to do from what we seen today. I thought Button showed his usual class in the exchange he had with Perez, but it's such a waste to have those guys fighting over last place.

I read something there about Horner saying the FIA should step in and take steps to slow down the Mercs. It's a funny sport, I have many, many memories of Vettel planting the throttle when the lights went out & fading off into the sunset at >1 second a lap.

lee_baby_simms

I fear this season is a write off for fans. Can't even get through the highlights. Awful.

Myrddin

lee_baby_simms wrote: »

I fear this season is a write off for fans. Can't even get through the highlights. Awful.

We'll see, it's still premature & today's race was somewhat of an anomaly with only 11 finishers. The Williams & Ferrari battle will be an interesting one, the Saubers are ones to watch, the two new boys at TR are ones to watch...there's still hope for a decent season. It's undoubtedly a Merc title though, but that's not stale for me yet especially after 4 years of Red Bull trophies.

Frank Bullitt

I agree with some in here that it is still early days, but it doesn't bode well for the season ahead.

I am not really interested in the battle for the best of the rest, teams just aren't pushing at all. If those Mercs pushed to the max for the full race, they would have easily lapped the lot.

I think the FIA need to look at the current set up with rules on testing and engine limits. One aspect of F1 that somewhat helped was the noise, and thats gone now, long gone. You don't have drivers pushing their cars properly anymore because they need to conserve their units for the season, so you end up with a discount form of racing, this is supposed to be the pinnacle of motorsport.

I love F1, have done for the best part of 20 years now, but its tougher to justify watching it now. I would have to do what a lot of you guys did this weekend and get up in the middle of the night to watch the European races because I'm in Vancouver, if this race is anything to go by, ill stay in bed. F1 can't rely on the die hard fans, it needs to attract the casual fan to get the audience numbers up, and this type of racing isn't of interest to the layman, lack of noise, 2 cars disappearing into the distance, and then fuel saving and conservative racing.

F1 has almost been sterilized in its current form, this idea that it needs to be relative to street cars. Don't make me laugh! The only cars on the road with current forms of F1 tech are the McLaren P1, the LaFerrari and the Porsche 918. Each cost the same, or more than a house and are ultra exclusive. Trying to make F1 relative to road cars is like playing Premiership football matches on the street or in your local park.

Seannew1

One slight positive out of today was that it looks like Rosberg has really upped his game over the winter on becoming more economic with his fuel consumption, hopefully it gives him some impetus to beat Hamilton more often this year. I get annoyed with f1 these days and how it has become more technical and less emphasis on old school driving but as Hamilton demonstrated last year, fuel economy is pretty important these days.

HighLine

Agree entirely with Gintonious's post above.

Ghost Train

I'll give it a few races before I write the season off, Sauber and Ferrari do seem to be going in the right direction and the race wasn't helped losing Bottas and the 2 Lotus and a redbull and a honda and the 2 Manors, 1/3 of the field

I would have liked to see some strategy though, fuel saving and tires don't seem to matter much

hopefully the engine evolution will resolve itself sooner rather than later to get some competition at the front of the field

Frank Bullitt

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Its simple really, give them more fuel. Its not rocket science, the drivers want to go flat out so let them.

But they have to conserve engines, so going flat out puts more strain on the units as a whole. Running flat out runs the risk of a failure and thus a penalty.

Sitec

That was a weird race. I thought Button was a bit of a fool with Perez, should have let him through. That could have been a lot worse.

Jordan 199

Red Bull Racing facing an uncertain future.

Frank Bullitt

Jordan 191 wrote: »

Red Bull Racing facing an uncertain future.

Not surprising really, and it says something when a company like Red Bull, who has a long relationship with F1 (either as a small sponsor or full team), are considering their future.

The cost they pay doesn't benefit the company, maybe they are seeing the numbers going down from audiences.

If RB were to fully leave the sport, that would be a huge indicator that things are very wrong.

And from the article:

The struggles of Honda, which reflect how difficult it is to come into F1 with one team and restricted testing, have probably not impressed Audi. In addition there's uncertainty about the future direction of the F1 rules.

Companies are seeing this as clear as day now. It is easy for a manufacturer to say they will invest if it helps their company on the tech side (ironically, renault did this when they wanted these current units introduced), but does that help the sport? Simply changing the rules for car companies to come in is wide of the actual issue that is going on in F1.

There needs to be a consensus about what the sport actually is, and how it attracts fans. Is it the pinnacle of motorsport, or just a way for teams, companies and manufacturers to show boat? Which is better and which will help the sport more?

I still maintain that the new power units are a big factor in this. How absurd is it, that the Manor F1 team couldn't run their cars because of software issues on their units. Think about that for a moment.

The V8 engines cost teams around £7 million, these new ones cost £18 million. Smaller teams, which struggled enough with the old units, are clearly under pressure now to just turn up and go. Add to that the complexity and lifespan of the engines, with limited testing, and you get what we have now.

There are gulfs of performance between teams now that we almost have different formulas running around the track. Its simply not good for the sport.

Jordan 199

Gintonious wrote: »

Not surprising really, and it says something when a company like Red Bull, who has a long relationship with F1 (either as a small sponsor or full team), are considering their future.

Red Bull have been involved in F1 for 20 years. Started sponsoring Sauber in 1995:

Frank Bullitt

Jordan 191 wrote: »

Red Bull have been involved in F1 for 20 years. Started sponsoring Sauber in 1995:

I know, thats what I was saying.

Seannew1

Jordan 191 wrote: »

Red Bull have been involved in F1 for 20 years. Started sponsoring Sauber in 1995:

Is that Frentzen driving the car?? Looks like his helmet design......god I loved that fella

Jordan 199

Seannew1 wrote: »

Is that Frentzen driving the car?? Looks like his helmet design......god I loved that fella

It is indeed. He was very quick driving that Ford powered Sauber in '95.

Seannew1

Jordan 191 wrote: »

It is indeed. He was very quick driving that Ford powered Sauber in '95.

One of my favorite f1 drivers ever.....and probably one of the most unluckiest drivers ever to grace the sport.... I used to pull my hair out the times that jordan gave way with unreliability issues!!

Frank Bullitt

Best part of the whole thing.

Love Arnie.

LollipopJimmy

Gintonious wrote: »

Best part of the whole thing.

Love Arnie.

I think Lewis was quite insulting though. 'I thought yo'd be taller'

mickdw

LollipopJimmy wrote: »

I think Lewis was quite insulting though. 'I thought yo'd be taller'

From what I heard, he is very small so that is the most surprising thing to everyone who meets him as they expect this huge guy.

LollipopJimmy

mickdw wrote: »

From what I heard, he is very small so that is the most surprising thing to everyone who meets him as they expect this huge guy.

Yes bt why say it to him on live TV?

mickdw

LollipopJimmy wrote: »

Yes bt why say it to him on live TV?

Ah sure Hamilton is a bit of a tool like that.

Terrontress

I wasn't sure whether I liked Brunfle, EJ, Coulthard etc being wheeled out to ask questions in front of the crowd, but at least they had a racing involvement. I don't see what Arnold Schwarzenegger has to add. The closeness of the names of Austria and Australia makes it seem more like a mistake.

There was often great insight, squabbles, breakdowns in the press conference room. Now it's just playing to a crowd, try to get the biggest cheer. The only one I enjoyed was Jean Alesi in Italy, and that was because he knew he was simply playing to the crowd.

Give me an unseen James Allen in a closed room with three seats and a camera.

CarrickMcJoe

Terrontress wrote: »

I wasn't sure whether I liked Brunfle, EJ, Coulthard etc being wheeled out to ask questions in front of the crowd, but at least they had a racing involvement. I don't see what Arnold Schwarzenegger has to add. The closeness of the names of Austria and Australia makes it seem more like a mistake.

There was often great insight, squabbles, breakdowns in the press conference room. Now it's just playing to a crowd, try to get the biggest cheer. The only one I enjoyed was Jean Alesi in Italy, and that was because he knew he was simply playing to the crowd.

Give me an unseen James Allen in a closed room with three seats and a camera.

Agree totally, last year Benedict Cumberbatch did the podium interview which awful. Jeremy Clarkson would be a good candidate.
The race itself wasn't a very good ad for what is supposed to be the pinnacle of all motorsports. Glad I recorded it. Safety rules need to be relaxed. Think Kimi has a drive through next race for the unsafe release. His race is already over.

Ghost Train

Terrontress wrote: »

I wasn't sure whether I liked Brunfle, EJ, Coulthard etc being wheeled out to ask questions in front of the crowd, but at least they had a racing involvement. I don't see what Arnold Schwarzenegger has to add. The closeness of the names of Austria and Australia makes it seem more like a mistake.

There was often great insight, squabbles, breakdowns in the press conference room. Now it's just playing to a crowd, try to get the biggest cheer. The only one I enjoyed was Jean Alesi in Italy, and that was because he knew he was simply playing to the crowd.

Give me an unseen James Allen in a closed room with three seats and a camera.

well they still have the old style press conference, although bbc didn't show it I think, I presume sky did

Some good back and forth with Vettel and Rosberg
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/formulaone/article-2995590/Sebastian-Vettel-Nico-Rosberg-press-conference-spat-Australian-Grand-Prix.html

jayo26

While I totally agree that something has to be done in f1 to bring the pack closer together I find it a bit ironic that Red Bull are the team that's throwing toys out of the pram first. They dominated the sport for four years in a row and to a certain extent them and Renault took their eye off the ball when the new regulations came in and underestimated Mercedes new car and engine.
If I remember correctly wasn't it Red Bull one of the teams that were against the spending cap and a range of other measures to bring new supplier and teams into the sport while I hate the fact that one team is so far out in front I find the fact that teams are going into administration and others are not even ready to race more of a turn off then the fact that one team are dominating.

PukkaStukka

Jordan 191 wrote: »

Red Bull Racing facing an uncertain future.

The amount of whining coming from the Red Bull camp is unreal. I have a feeling that after last year, Dieter Mateschitz has decided that if they can't become competitive once again that they may well pack up and go. It's being reported that the relationship between Renault and RB has all but broken down, with RB publicly criticising the Régie for going backwards with their motor, whereas Ferrari and Mercedes have advanced by some way.

Having said that, the irony here is that Torro Rossa are using the same Renault V6 and performed stronger than RB. Comments in Autosport were that Kyvat's non start were because of a gearbox issue attributed to vibrations from the engine. That to me points to a fundamental installation issue which could hardly be blamed on Renault.

RB's alternatives on the engine front are practically non-existent at this stage. A customer Ferrari option would be undesireable as they won't get the latest specs, nor has it been forgotten that RB in their early days used the Ferrari V8 and then dumped it on Torro Rosso. There is previous history between Mercedes and Mateschitz, so it's unlikely that Stuttgart will be warm on him, and being the best engine on the grid, the German's can afford to be choosey who they give it to. Likewise it's highly unlikely that Honda would supply a second team given that Ron Dennis will guard that motor like a new born baby, a not unreasonable stance considering his team are bearing all of the development pains by themselves.

In the absence of an alternative competitive power plant for RB, and assuming that no new "white knight" engine supplier emerges, I feel their options are soldier on, or go. It really is that stark.

PopePalpatine

Just for those of us who aren't fully up to speed on the politics of F1, what's the origins of the bad blood between Mateschitz and Mercedes?

jayo26

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Just for those of us who aren't fully up to speed on the politics of F1, what's the origins of the bad blood between Mateschitz and Mercedes?

I don't think their is anything major in it I remember a story only a year or two ago about mateschitz been spotted in the paddock and having dinner with the Mercedes chiefs and back then they were linking them together but maybe I have missed something.

supremenovice

Regards Red Bull domination and whinging about Merc...
At no stage during their 4 drivers titles did they dominate the field with both cars, race after race like Hamilton and Rosberg. 2010 had four drivers in the last race trying to win the title. 2012 started with 7 different winners. And Webber rarely duked it out with Vettel for 1st like Rosberg does with Hamilton.

I do agree that its not plausible to try slow down Mercedes though. They deserve all their success, it doesnt make for good tv though.

jayo26

supremenovice wrote: »

Regards Red Bull domination and whinging about Merc...
At no stage during their 4 drivers titles did they dominate the field with both cars, race after race like Hamilton and Rosberg. 2010 had four drivers in the last race trying to win the title. 2012 started with 7 different winners. And Webber rarely duked it out with Vettel for 1st like Rosberg does with Hamilton.

I do agree that its not plausible to try slow down Mercedes though. They deserve all their success, it doesnt make for good tv though.

Yh I agree that they didn't dominate like merc but in my opinion that is not the biggest problem the problems are that the other teams cant even get off the grid or get to the grid that's ruining it. Id happily let rosberg and Lewis battle it out up top again if the other teams were fighting each other closely but they ain't.

counterlock

I wouldn't be surprised to see some rule changes coming in. They did it in 98 with mclarens second brake pedal, Renaults mass damper in 06, tread depth measurement on michelins in 03, double diffusers on the brains etc.

Zcott

I don't really see what they can change at the moment because it's no one thing that's making Mercedes so dominant - it's a mixture of good drivers, good chassis and good engineering all coming together. I think rule changes are in the works but iirc they're more about bringing back wider track cars and reducing the rear wing height.

jayo26

OSI wrote: »

The only thing that can really be changed that will make a difference is to remove the token system and allow for engine testing in non race chassis. That will at least allow for Renault, Ferrari and Honda to concentrate on improving the engine asap rather than worrying about when best to strategically use their tokens. But it does open it up to Mercedes making yet more ground on their own.

It also allows for even more money be spent on engine development which is art of the problem already. I think the engines are far to complex and expensive at moment

AMKC

Well that was a very eventful race. Half of the pit crews seemed to be asleep. Was a pity neither of the Lotus,s could finish the race.
The Saubers done well do its good to see Sauber doing well again. A pity Kimi had a problem or lose wheel on his car. Well done to Vettel he done well. Think Felipe should have done better and that if Bottas had been able to race he might have giving Vettel more of a fight for 3rd place.
Very dissapointing that Renault are still having problems with there engines. They have had 2 years now too get these engines right and need to get of there a,rse,s and fix them.
Id say Alonso was happy now looking at that and the engine in his car going that he was not there today. I think Honda will get there engines sorted before the season ends and will be much better next year. It would be even better do if they could get it sorted by the second half of this season and challange Mercedes.
At least Kevin got a spin in the car and to do Qualifying do before the engine went. It was a pity that Williams was not allowed to have a reserve driver race when Bottas was not able to but I suppose as the reserve driver if they had one could not take part in the race unless they had done some free practice or taken part in the qualifying.

Jordan 199

PukkaStukka wrote: »

RB's alternatives on the engine front are practically non-existent at this stage. A customer Ferrari option would be undesireable as they won't get the latest specs, nor has it been forgotten that RB in their early days used the Ferrari V8 and then dumped it on Torro Rosso. There is previous history between Mercedes and Mateschitz, so it's unlikely that Stuttgart will be warm on him, and being the best engine on the grid, the German's can afford to be choosey who they give it to. Likewise it's highly unlikely that Honda would supply a second team given that Ron Dennis will guard that motor like a new born baby, a not unreasonable stance considering his team are bearing all of the development pains by themselves.

In the absence of an alternative competitive power plant for RB, and assuming that no new "white knight" engine supplier emerges, I feel their options are soldier on, or go. It really is that stark.

They could fund Cosworth to build them engines. Cosworth built the 1.6L V6 Turbo below for last season.



Article about it here.

jayo26

Jordan 191 wrote: »

They could fund Cosworth to build them engines. Cosworth built the 1.6L V6 Turbo below for last season.



Article about it here.

Ohh I just remembered weren't they rumours at one stage last season that I redbull actually wanted they could build their own engine, this would be along the same lines.

Muff_Daddy

Sitec wrote: »

That was a weird race. I thought Button was a bit of a fool with Perez, should have let him through. That could have been a lot worse.

Buttons defending against Perez was the only thing even remotealy interesting about that race. To point to that as a criticism is bizzare.

What do you mean when you say that could have been a lot worse?

PukkaStukka

Jordan 191 wrote: »

They could fund Cosworth to build them engines. Cosworth built the 1.6L V6 Turbo below for last season.



Article about it here.

jayo26 wrote: »

Ohh I just remembered weren't they rumours at one stage last season that I redbull actually wanted they could build their own engine, this would be along the same lines.

Were they not looking at that option and badging the motor as an "Infinity"? The development costs alone would be so big that I doubt they could do it unless the costs would be split between RB, additional sponsors, and perhaps the engine builder themselves. That Cosworth solution looks nice but at this stage it's highly likely to be a legacy unit as it hasn't been developed.

ZiabR

Muff_Daddy wrote: »

Buttons defending against Perez was the only thing even remotealy interesting about that race. To point to that as a criticism is bizzare.

I would agree with you on this point. There is a good chance that this season is going to be a rinse and repeat in regards to winner and second place. The only thing that will change is Rosberg will win some and Hamilton will win some.

Could be in for a borefest... sadly. Not taking away from what Merc have achieved but the sport needs excitement. When you see top designers moving to different motor sports, good NON paid drivers moving to different motor sports and teams closing down, the signs are not good for the sport.

While I have to admire Manor, what the hell kind of mickey mouse sport lets a team with little to no funding, last years car and engine and two amateur drivers into the sport... It is like letting a GP2 team run their car and drivers in F1.

And before people come in and tell me I am not a true fan... I have traveled to Europe on 2 occasions for F1 races, Monza and Spa. I love the sport, always have but hell, I have no idea what is going on with it at the moment. Bernie needs to go (he has been there far to long) and the FIA need a good kick up the arse.

In my opinion the main trouble is a single team being so dominant without any other team having any chance. Weren't there times last season where even if a Merc had a bad start they'd be up to 2nd by the end of the first lap and within a couple of seconds, just the same as if they'd had a good start. Having the two title contenders on the same team these days and "equal treatment" means races are generally settled on the first lap with no-one else being able to disrupt things.
Also the regulations and homologation for 4 or 5 years is ridiculous. In 09 teams made up several seconds a lap through the year and by the following year teams who had struggled for points at the start of 09 were getting poles and podiums. Even within 09 Hamilton had no podiums at the halfway point then won 2 races and had another 3 podiums.

It's going to take a lot to undo the damage that's been done.

jayo26

PukkaStukka wrote: »

Were they not looking at that option and badging the motor as an "Infinity"? The development costs alone would be so big that I doubt they could do it unless the costs would be split between RB, additional sponsors, and perhaps the engine builder themselves. That Cosworth solution looks nice but at this stage it's highly likely to be a legacy unit as it hasn't been developed.

Yes but from what I remember they could recoup some cost threw selling on the engine to be used by other teams same as Mercedes and Ferrari and Renault do

ZiabR

Deleted User wrote: »

In my opinion the main trouble is a single team being so dominant without any other team having any chance. Weren't there times last season where even if a Merc had a bad start they'd be up to 2nd by the end of the first lap and within a couple of seconds, just the same as if they'd had a good start. Having the two title contenders on the same team these days and "equal treatment" means races are generally settled on the first lap with no-one else being able to disrupt things.
Also the regulations and homologation for 4 or 5 years is ridiculous. In 09 teams made up several seconds a lap through the year and by the following year teams who had struggled for points at the start of 09 were getting poles and podiums. Even within 09 Hamilton had no podiums at the halfway point then won 2 races and had another 3 podiums.

It's going to take a lot to undo the damage that's been done.

Completely agree.

We essentially have a massive split. People keep saying, ah but its only the first race of the season, give it time. That was the same last year, we gave it time and it made no difference, Merc ran away with it. Merc are going to run away with it again.

jayo26

logik wrote: »

Completely agree.

We essentially have a massive split. People keep saying, ah but its only the first race of the season, give it time. That was the same last year, we gave it time and it made no difference, Merc ran away with it. Merc are going to run away with it again.

How do you think It could or should be fixed? Any ideas?

F1 fanatic

whats everyones opinion on fitting restricters in the cars to limit top speed. This would equal the playing field while still allowing for design around acceleration, traction and cornering speed.