Formula 1 2015: General Discussion Thread

Jordan 199

Did anyone get the April edition of F1 Racing? I'm in it on page 58 yes! yes! yes!

v3ttel

Ricciardo on to power unit number 4 in Barcelona. Has the increase to an allowance of 5 been ratified yet?

If not, it looks likely he'll be doing a Fred Flintstone on it in Monaco :pac:

Myrddin

Did I hear right during the BBC coverage that the cost of engines has risen from €5 million, to €25 million each? That can't be right?? If it is, regardless of what side of the argument you fall on with regard these new power units, they've been wrong for the sport. With all the other crap to 'keep costs down', please tell me this is a mistake?

ScumLord

Myrddin wrote: »

Did I hear right during the BBC coverage that the cost of engines has risen from €5 million, to €25 million each? That can't be right?? If it is, regardless of what side of the argument you fall on with regard these new power units, they've been wrong for the sport. With all the other crap to 'keep costs down', please tell me this is a mistake?

Could that just be the initial cost of developing a completely new power unit?

Once the engines have been around for a year or two those costs may come down dramatically.

Myrddin

ScumLord wrote: »

Could that just be the initial cost of developing a completely new power unit?

Once the engines have been around for a year or two those costs may come down dramatically.

I think it was put as an individual price. Fairly sure it was in the EJ/Bernie interview. I know Bernie is against these engines (I reckon he's using costs as a weapon, when he really just doesn't like them & the lack of noise first), but if it is true & it's a cost per engine, regardless of the tech it's not right.

PopePalpatine

I really don't believe a power unit would cost €25 million a pop, are you sure there's not a decimal point in there? I think the figure was being quoted as the entire cost of getting an engine supply for the season.

Myrddin

PopePalpatine wrote: »

I really don't believe a power unit would cost €25 million a pop, are you sure there's not a decimal point in there? I think the figure was being quoted as the entire cost of getting an engine supply for the season.

Just watched the EJ/BE interview there, the figure wasn't mentioned so it must have been someone else that said it. It was definitely mentioned at some point during the race build up/race itself, that the cost has gone from 5 mill to 25 mill.

KarlFitz01

Myrddin wrote: »

Just watched the EJ/BE interview there, the figure wasn't mentioned so it must have been someone else that said it. It was definitely mentioned at some point during the race build up/race itself, that the cost has gone from 5 mill to 25 mill.

I'm nearly sure DC said it after the interview

Uno my Uno.

Myrddin wrote: »

Just watched the EJ/BE interview there, the figure wasn't mentioned so it must have been someone else that said it. It was definitely mentioned at some point during the race build up/race itself, that the cost has gone from 5 mill to 25 mill.

The cost of a Bugatti Veyron including R&D was 5M. If a single F1 Powerunit costs 25M the sport is doomed because the people running it are too stupid for life.

HigginsJ

Bernie seems to be hinting that the Italian GP is under threat. Soon enough there will be no races left in Europe.

mickdw

Its around 30 million for customer engines for the season under these current engine rules.
25 million per engine is just silly talk.

ScumLord

HigginsJ wrote: »

Bernie seems to be hinting that the Italian GP is under threat. Soon enough there will be no races left in Europe.

If the Italian GP could move to Imola it wouldn't be too bad.

Is Imola F1 friendly?

Uno my Uno.

ScumLord wrote: »

If the Italian GP could move to Imola it wouldn't be too bad.

Is Imola F1 friendly?

Not for a long time and won't be ever again.

Ticket Sales are falling in Europe and Circuits can't afford the massive costs of hosting the races. The cost of developing a new circuit or even upgrading older tracks are in the billions, with running and sanctioning costs on top. The only people capable of footing the costs are in the Middle East and Asia where they can afford to not bother sell tickets and have a track like Sahkir sit as a white elephant and host 2 or 3 events a year.

It's hard to imagine that there wouldn't be a race in Monza, it is such a major landmark race in the calendar, but anything is possible in F1.

Myrddin

KarlFitz01 wrote: »

I'm nearly sure DC said it after the interview

I think you're right. Sounds like he just plucked the figure from the top of his head though going by the posts above

Anesthetize

Imola was redeveloped in recent years and has an entirely new pit complex. As of 2011 it was FIA grade 1. If the costs can work out I don't see why they can't alternate the Italian GP between Monza and Imola.

Vic_08

Uno my Uno. wrote: »

Not for a long time and won't be ever again.

Ticket Sales are falling in Europe and Circuits can't afford the massive costs of hosting the races. The cost of developing a new circuit or even upgrading older tracks are in the billions, with running and sanctioning costs on top. The only people capable of footing the costs are in the Middle East and Asia where they can afford to not bother sell tickets and have a track like Sahkir sit as a white elephant and host 2 or 3 events a year.

It's hard to imagine that there wouldn't be a race in Monza, it is such a major landmark race in the calendar, but anything is possible in F1.

Ticket sales are falling in Europe because the cost for an average punter is ridiculous. It is no surprise they can't fill the tracks at the sort of entry+parking+food+accomodation prices that going to a GP costs.

That is not going to change while it is run by a decrepit money grubbing elitist troll and his asset-stripping mates.

I had to laugh at Coulthard, on his grid walk he pointed out some guy saying something like "he loves F1, is a big supporter of the sport" He was talking about one of the CVC owners. If DC had a clue what he was talking about and some balls he would have said that the guy was a massive parasite on the sport, that was personally pocketing more cash per year than is paid to the bottom 5 teams in total.

The real lie behind the whole F1 business is that there is more than enough money to fund all the teams to go racing properly while at the same time removing the financial stranglehold on the circuits that is forcing them to price themselves out of the market. A huge amount of the commercial revenue is being siphoned off without a word being said by anybody.

v3ttel

There is absolutely zero chance of Bernie allowing to Italy drop off the calendar completely, especially with a resurgent Ferrari. He cites France and Germany as examples, but the Germany attendances were dwindling massively, and Ferrari are the most popular team on the grid and an institution in Italy.

There is no way it should be allowed to happen. I would like to see Imola return to the calendar alongside Monza, and a return to France and Germany too. Of the current calendar, the likes of Monza, Spa, Silverstone, Barcelona, Monaco, Interlagos, Melbourne, Canada, Hungary should be absolutely untouchable.

What is the point of holding races in India, Korea, China, Bahrain, Azerbaijan etc, when you can see a huge amount of empty seats throughout the weekend - not just because of ticket prices, but because of a general apathy towards F1? Taking races away from places with huge popularity, just to give them to locations where people have no interest and no history of motorsport is a horrendous idea.

If ticket prices were reasonable, there wouldn't be an issue with European attendances. That is the core audience for F1.

Uno my Uno.

v3ttel wrote: »

There is absolutely zero chance of Bernie allowing to Italy drop off the calendar completely, especially with a resurgent Ferrari. He cites France and Germany as examples, but the Germany attendances were dwindling massively, and Ferrari are the most popular team on the grid and an institution in Italy.

There is no way it should be allowed to happen. I would like to see Imola return to the calendar alongside Monza, and a return to France and Germany too. Of the current calendar, the likes of Monza, Spa, Silverstone, Barcelona, Monaco, Interlagos, Melbourne, Canada, Hungary should be absolutely untouchable.

What is the point of holding races in India, Korea, China, Bahrain, Azerbaijan etc, when you can see a huge amount of empty seats throughout the weekend - not just because of ticket prices, but because of a general apathy towards F1? Taking races away from places with huge popularity, just to give them to locations where people have no interest and no history of motorsport is a horrendous idea.

If ticket prices were reasonable, there wouldn't be an issue with European attendances. That is the core audience for F1.

Bernie don't give a fcuk. he plays hardball and his only goal is to maximize revenue for Bernie. He isn't going to take a pay cut just because Monza is a traditional venue. For Bernie contracts are king and if Monza can't or Won't sign up then it's bye bye, he'll find another oil baron or emerging Asian state to give the slot to. Remember that there was no Belgian GP for several years in the 1990s because of contractual problems, It was questionable if there was going to be a British GP recently when there was all that messing with the Donnington track extension. A season Without Monza might be unthinkable to us but it could happen, even if it might not be likely.

_rebelkid

Uno my Uno. wrote: »

Bernie don't give a fcuk. he plays hardball and his only goal is to maximize revenue for Bernie. He isn't going to take a pay cut just because Monza is a traditional venue. For Bernie contracts are king and if Monza can't or Won't sign up then it's bye bye, he'll find another oil baron or emerging Asian state to give the slot to. Remember that there was no Belgian GP for several years in the 1990s because of contractual problems, It was questionable if there was going to be a British GP recently when there was all that messing with the Donnington track extension. A season Without Monza might be unthinkable to us but it could happen, even if it might not be likely.

Are they though? He agreed to only take 50% of Germany's contract payment this year, and help sort the promoter out for next year. The promoter still couldn't manage that. Bernie went for the race over the contract.

Uno my Uno.

_rebelkid wrote: »

Are they though? He agreed to only take 50% of Germany's contract payment this year, and help sort the promoter out for next year. The promoter still couldn't manage that. Bernie went for the race over the contract.

I take your point but there still isn't going to be any German Grand Prix this year and I remain skeptical of Bernie's motivations. The point I'm making is that ultimately Bernie will let the Race at Monza go the way of the Dodo if he thinks that is the best move for Bernie, regardless for what it means for F1 in Italy. These are all Tactical decisions, tradition and the romance of racing don't come into it.

Frank Bullitt

Here is scarbs render of the Honda PU. Some crazy tech in it.

In the months ahead of the launch of the McLaren MP4-30, there was a huge amount of speculation surrounding the technology of the new Honda Formula 1 engine.

It's been a troubled start so far, with pre-season testing a disaster and McLaren battling to make up ground in the early flyaway races.

A lot of these reliability problems are the result of Honda trying to steal a march on its engine rivals by incorporating new and unproven technology, as, with in-season development limited, it did not want to start 2015 with a basic power unit set-up that would be hard to improve.

McLaren went aggressive with the aerodynamic concept on this year's car, and that put pressure on Honda to achieve the packaging required for the Woking team's 'size zero' dimensions.

Over the Bahrain Grand Prix weekend, the ongoing problems on Jenson Button's car allowed us to get the first clear look at the Honda unit, showing just how radical the Japanese firm has gone to achieve minimal volume with its packaging.

Honda has split its turbo, but the way it has done so is different to Mercedes, as the turbo sits within the tight confines of the 'V' of the engine, along with the MGU-H.

To fit a turbo into this space, it appears that Honda has pioneered the use of an axial flow compressor.

Rather than a large centrifugal fan, there are a series of smaller fans along a shaft.

This design spins up quicker, although it may lack the maximum possible boost, which is not such an issue in this fuel-limited formula.

Aligned on the same shaft as the compressor is the MGU-H and the exhaust-driven turbine; the latter appears to sit behind the engine and is of a more conventional design. Honda hopes to improve driveability and reduce the size of the envelope of the engine with this layout.

Above the turbo is a compact, low-line aluminium inlet plenum chamber. Inside, the inlets are turned through 90 degrees to reduce the height of the chamber, while still allowing for variable-length inlet trumpets.

More conventionally, the oil tank and MGU-K are located at the front of the engine and under the left-hand cylinder bank respectively.

Finally, and again unconventionally, the ERS module ahead of the motor combines the battery and both control electronic boxes (one each for ERS-K and ERS-H) into one unit.

This creates a lower and lighter unit that requires less space under the fuel tank area, which again aids aerodynamic packaging.

Of course, all of this tight packaging means that there's precious little space for external cooling.

All of the ERS elements will require water or oil cooling, which has led to reliability problems and Honda needing to cap power to keep temperatures under control and prevent coolant leaks via the seals around the spinning shafts.

Although Honda continues to have reliability problems, the fundamental design of the power unit is valid and will eventually become both powerful and reliable.

That will mean McLaren's aerodynamic packaging gains can be fully realised.

Charlie-Bravo

Thanks for that gin, very interesting and the engine design seems to have potential, which when they can utilise it to it's maximum a long with good aero, will be a beast of a car. We'll probably have to wait till next year when the token system kicks in for them.

Frank Bullitt

The use of an axial flow compressor is very interesting to me, and also lends itself to the really tight rear on the McLaren. The car does seem to have potential if the PU can get fully flowing.

I would expect them to be in Q3 relatively soon once they get back to Europe, and if the aero is as solid as it seems, some good results at the less power circuits could be on the cards.

Tea 1000

Gintonious wrote: »

The use of an axial flow compressor is very interesting to me, and also lends itself to the really tight rear on the McLaren. The car does seem to have potential if the PU can get fully flowing.

I would expect them to be in Q3 relatively soon once they get back to Europe, and if the aero is as solid as it seems, some good results at the less power circuits could be on the cards.

With that new turbo design spooling up faster but with slightly less top end boost, it might be a trait of the car even at it's best that the tighter circuits are it's strengths. I could be wrong, but it might mean it has a little better accelleration out of corners than rivals, making overtaking a tiny bit easier, but I might be over simplifying a bit!
But I guess if it's very aerodynamically efficient, they might be able to use less downforce than the rest on the circuits with long striaghts in order to claw back some top end speed.

PopePalpatine

I'm going to make a wild guess here and say they'll probably get their first win in either Hungary or Singapore.

Uno my Uno.

PopePalpatine wrote: »

I'm going to make a wild guess here and say they'll probably get their first win in either Hungary or Singapore.

2016 you mean?:P:P:P

Thidp

In Monaco they will have a good chance of finishing well...

But I doubt that McLaren will get even a podium this year.

Ghost Train

I wonder will the engine rules change again before Honda has time to get up to speed

Interesting to see they've gone different way

PopePalpatine

I'd say they might have a chance in Monaco of a podium.

Also, take a look at the odds for Alonso to win this season and for Button...they've started to shorten. They were 11/1 for Alonso and 14/1 for Button on Sunday.

ScumLord

If McLaren get points this year I think they would see that as a bonus. They said at the start of the year it would be all development this year. They're a year behind everyone else and trying to catch up by out engineering everyone else. They've basically jumped in at the deep end.

Uno my Uno.

PopePalpatine wrote: »

I'd say they might have a chance in Monaco of a podium.

Also, take a look at the odds for Alonso to win this season and for Button...they've started to shorten. They were 11/1 for Alonso and 14/1 for Button on Sunday.

I don't think there is any chance of a podium at Monaco, they have to leap-frog all the smaller teams as well as Red Bull, Williams and Ferrari before they can get that podium. Its too much to do this year never mind in two races. 2016 will see a much more competitive McLaren and podiums may well be within their grasp.

Vic_08

Uno my Uno. wrote: »

I don't think there is any chance of a podium at Monaco, they have to leap-frog all the smaller teams as well as Red Bull, Williams and Ferrari before they can get that podium. Its too much to do this year never mind in two races. 2016 will see a much more competitive McLaren and podiums may well be within their grasp.

I recall the same things being said about Ferrari at the end of last season. Nobody predicted that they would be on the podium at every race and beating Mercedes on track early in 2015. Practically everyone had written off 2015 as a second season of complete Merc dominance.

Realistically the only people who have any idea at this point how competitive McLaren can be and when are the McLaren and Honda engineers. They alone know how much power the engine has that has not yet been able to be used and how good the aero and chassis performance is likely to be when they are able to get the entire package working at 100%.

Last year Ron Dennis was talking about them being competitive out of the box for 2015, that hasn't happened and it is obvious that the reliability issues they have had from winter testing onwards have been far worse than they expected and that these have held back the development. However Dennis is far from being a fool and I doubt he would have ditched the Merc engines and signed up for this project without being convinced that it was going to be a very strong contender.

It is of course possible that the car is not going to be good enough at any point but there has been no sign of that so far. If the data was showing that the package is not going to be competitive after the expected fixes and upgrades are included there will be murmurings and malcontents from somewhere within the team soon enough. So far the public line that they are confident about the future performance doesn't seem to be cracking.

Uno my Uno.

Vic_08 wrote: »

I recall the same things being said about Ferrari at the end of last season. Nobody predicted that they would be on the podium at every race and beating Mercedes on track early in 2015. Practically everyone had written off 2015 as a second season of complete Merc dominance.

Realistically the only people who have any idea at this point how competitive McLaren can be and when are the McLaren and Honda engineers. They alone know how much power the engine has that has not yet been able to be used and how good the aero and chassis performance is likely to be when they are able to get the entire package working at 100%.

Last year Ron Dennis was talking about them being competitive out of the box for 2015, that hasn't happened and it is obvious that the reliability issues they have had from winter testing onwards have been far worse than they expected and that these have held back the development. However Dennis is far from being a fool and I doubt he would have ditched the Merc engines and signed up for this project without being convinced that it was going to be a very strong contender.

It is of course possible that the car is not going to be good enough at any point but there has been no sign of that so far. If the data was showing that the package is not going to be competitive after the expected fixes and upgrades are included there will be murmurings and malcontents from somewhere within the team soon enough. So far the public line that they are confident about the future performance doesn't seem to be cracking.

Perhaps I have missunderstood but am i to understand that what you are saying is that the car hasn't not improved therefore there is no reason to believe that it won't improve? In fairness the more more correct way of looking at it is to ask how much improvement or potential to improve has the car actually shown as that is a much better indicator as to any likely future results.

I actually thought there was a big improvement over the four races, Alonso getting into Q2 at Bahrain was a big achievement. However you have to balance that against the fact that Jenson barely turned a wheel all weekend and the McLaren's poor performance in the race.

Also you can't compare Ferrari's development of a new car over the winter with the potential development of this car during the course of the season. Giant leaps are made with new cars from season to season, incremental improvements are made on cars during a season. I think the McLaran will improve greatly this season and points finishes for both drivers must be a target by the send of this season but I think expecting any more than that is unreasonable.

It could all be a different story next season as the PU develops, or then again it might not.

challengemaster

ScumLord wrote: »

If McLaren get points this year I think they would see that as a bonus. They said at the start of the year it would be all development this year. They're a year behind everyone else and trying to catch up by out engineering everyone else. They've basically jumped in at the deep end.

McLaren will have points by the next race. Particularly if the RB's keep blowing up PUs and gearboxes. Since Australia they've come a huge way. They finished 11th then because the entire field behind them suffered DNF's. They finished 11th in Bahrain pretty much on their own merit, beating Sauber, Marussia and 1/2 of Lotus and Force India. And Sauber scored points in China...

mickdw

challengemaster wrote: »

McLaren will have points by the next race. Particularly if the RB's keep blowing up PUs and gearboxes. Since Australia they've come a huge way. They finished 11th then because the entire field behind them suffered DNF's. They finished 11th in Bahrain pretty much on their own merit, beating Sauber, Marussia and 1/2 of Lotus and Force India. And Sauber scored points in China...

Yep, it seems to me that they have made crazy progress so far. Button and alonso fighting with maldonado in China and alonso nearly getting points in Bahrain.
Nobody should forget the capability that mclaren have to develop a car. How many times have we seem an early season mclaren donkey turn into a Race winner towards the seasons end.
I realise honda have a mountain to climb but I think it is plenty powerful enough even as it stands to do prefectly well in Hungary etc.
Draft Damon hill in for the weekend in Hungary

ScumLord

ScumLord wrote: »

If McLaren get points this year I think they would see that as a bonus. They said at the start of the year it would be all development this year. They're a year behind everyone else and trying to catch up by out engineering everyone else. They've basically jumped in at the deep end.

Really? Points in the next two races for sure.

Ghost Train

It will be interesting next race to see which teams make the biggest step with first major upgrades expected in Spain, will be a good indication of how fast McLaren can improve their car. Also wonder will cooler temperatures in Europe hurt Ferrari performance a bit or will it make no difference

Stallingrad

Renault promising big improvements mid reason, Mercedes levels of power. Would be great to see Daniel Ricciardo in the mix before year end. We shall see.

mickdw

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Lets see it do a weekend without exploding first!

True but I have no doubt renault will very soon produce a fantastic engine. They are not fools much as redbull seem to paint them that way.

Jordan 199

I see that Ayrton Senna's 1984 Toleman is up for sale at £1 million. Link.

Harika

Force India suggests that the teams pick their tires for a race themselves, four weeks in advance, unlike now where Pirelli decides which tyre type it brings to the track. This is kept secret until Thursday of the race. First of all great PR as this is exciting news to be discussed early in the week, also it could really lead to a lot of drama and exciting races. I think in the 80s it was quite common to pick tyre types individual for each of the four tyres. So a car could have soft, soft, hard, medium mounted if the track was using e.g. the left side tyres harder.
In general I think the rules here could use some tweaking, like the teams shouldn't be forced to use both sets of tyres anymore. As the sets are anyway limited they can burn them on Saturday in qualifying or save them for Sunday if they wanna go all soft for the race.

ricimaki

Harika wrote: »

Force India suggests that the teams pick their tires for a race themselves, four weeks in advance, unlike now where Pirelli decides which tyre type it brings to the track. This is kept secret until Thursday of the race. First of all great PR as this is exciting news to be discussed early in the week, also it could really lead to a lot of drama and exciting races. I think in the 80s it was quite common to pick tyre types individual for each of the four tyres. So a car could have soft, soft, hard, medium mounted if the track was using e.g. the left side tyres harder.
In general I think the rules here could use some tweaking, like the teams shouldn't be forced to use both sets of tyres anymore. As the sets are anyway limited they can burn them on Saturday in qualifying or save them for Sunday if they wanna go all soft for the race.

Whilst there is room for improvement in the tire rules, I don't think letting the teams pick the tires themselves is a good one. You could end up with races like Sochi last year, where the entire race could be ran using only set of tires.

I think a better option would be for Pirelli to nominate 2 or 3 tire options for each race, and the teams pick one of these. For example, option 1 might be super-softs and mediums, option 2 might be softs and hards, and option 3 might be softs and mediums. If a team uses option 1, they must do at least 2 pit-stops. Option 3 has a minimum of 1 stop, and option 2 has no required tire changes.

The qualifying tire rules would need to be re-worked, but it would create a lot of overtaking on the track (unless teams tell their driver to let the cars through....)

To spice it up a bit, each team should have to use each option at least once in the year

Uno my Uno.

i think the Tyre rules could certainly be impoved but I think the main issue is that they don't often get the choice of tyres right. This is why we see races where everyone is trying to preserve their tyres and are essentially on a go slow as a result.

I think a better option would be to have only two types of tyres available all season, essentially a hard and a soft, both must be used in the race etc.

mickdw

Definitely would be better with free tyre choice.
Leave it wide open, no future notice, and let the teams pull a few surprises on strategy.

Harika

ricimaki wrote: »

Whilst there is room for improvement in the tire rules, I don't think letting the teams pick the tires themselves is a good one. You could end up with races like Sochi last year, where the entire race could be ran using only set of tires.

I think a better option would be for Pirelli to nominate 2 or 3 tire options for each race, and the teams pick one of these. For example, option 1 might be super-softs and mediums, option 2 might be softs and hards, and option 3 might be softs and mediums. If a team uses option 1, they must do at least 2 pit-stops. Option 3 has a minimum of 1 stop, and option 2 has no required tire changes.

The qualifying tire rules would need to be re-worked, but it would create a lot of overtaking on the track (unless teams tell their driver to let the cars through....)

To spice it up a bit, each team should have to use each option at least once in the year

In Socci Pirelli didn't know about the track so they went conservative, if you think that a softer Tyre is so much quicker that it justifies an extra pit stop you won't have the issue that everyone will go for no or just one stop. There will be the valid 2 or 3 stop tactic.
For your option, I think that such extra rules, like the pit stop window in DTM or the "You have to pit every thirty laps" just lead to more confusion that excitement.
For the last part, that would add nicely extra.

I'd be fine with tyres for the weekend.

F1 fanatic

2016 season to have a late start next year.
Season opener in Australia in the beginning of April.

Myrddin

F1 fanatic wrote: »

2016 season to have a late start next year.
Season opener in Australia in the beginning of April.

If it helps to get rid of these bloody 3 week gaps then it can only be a good thing!

hotwhiskey

21 years today. RIP.

Uno my Uno.

Was listening to the Motorsport Magazine Podcast with BBC's Lee Mackenzie this morning. very interesting, lots of real talk about the drivers and the state of Formula 1.