Formula 1 2015: General Discussion Thread

Infoanon

Myrddin wrote: »

But you could turn that around & say anyone who thought a drinks company would be driver AND constructor champions for four seasons in a row would have been fooling themselves no?

Not really,a drinks company as a marketing exercise pumped millions in to finance a successful championship run - no different from Benetton

Myrddin

Infoanon wrote: »

They said the same about Lotus and Brabham, imho anyone who thought a drinks company would be in F1 for the long term was fooling themselves

Infoanon wrote: »

Not really,a drinks company as a marketing exercise pumped millions in to finance a successful championship run - no different from Benetton

So why given money, investment & success would they not be around for a long time?

afatbollix

Red bull is just the sponsor for the team.

If they decided to head off Id say the team would continue like Honda did with Braun.

For loads of reasons the teams are ran like separate company's.

Myrddin

afatbollix wrote: »

Red bull is just the sponsor for the team.

If they decided to head off Id say the team would continue like Honda did with Braun

I'd imagine so too, sure weren't they Jaguar before RB took over? It begs a bigger question about Torro Rosso though.

Infoanon

Myrddin wrote: »

So why given money, investment & success would they not be around for a long time?

Became its a marketing campaign and like 99.9% of marketing campaigns it will come to an end.

Red Bull now have the marketing nightmare of being associated with failure and they want out asap.

Harika

Infoanon wrote: »

Became its a marketing campaign and like 99.9% of marketing campaigns it will come to an end.

Red Bull now have the marketing nightmare of being associated with failure and they want out asap.

Same picture they are now showing with Red Bull Salzburg that missed the qualification to the Champions League several times, all good personal has now been moved to RB Leipzig in the 2nd German Bundesliga to push them there to the first and then CL.
I think this is a general problem when people are running teams with their own money, as soon as the Return of Invest is negative they are gone. Same possible issue with Lotus, Manor maybe soon or before Caterham. That is why teams like Ferrari or Sauber are so important for the sport as they won't go away because of missing success.

Lionbacker

:eek:
https://twitter.com/andrewbensonf1/status/611868372964376576

Never realised how reliable those Ferrari cars were.

Jordan 199

I see Red Bull have been involved in F1 since 1995.

Here is Heinz-Harald Frentzen at the 1995 Monaco GP driving the Sauber Ford C14:

flazio

I remember thanks to sponsorship, Saubers used to look like a Mercedes / Red Bull hybrid because Petronas used to sponsor them as well.

challengemaster

It sort of got swept under the rug with the crash between Raikkonen and Alonso in lap 1, but I can't be the only one that heard them say Ferrari are willing to supply Red Bull with engines for 2016.

Myrddin

challengemaster wrote: »

It sort of got swept under the rug with the crash between Raikkonen and Alonso in lap 1, but I can't be the only one that heard them say Ferrari are willing to supply Red Bull with engines for 2016.

I didn't hear, but RB are contracted to Renault for 2016 no?

tripperman

challengemaster wrote: »

It sort of got swept under the rug with the crash between Raikkonen and Alonso in lap 1, but I can't be the only one that heard them say Ferrari are willing to supply Red Bull with engines for 2016.

I believe they said 2017 Ferrari would supply them as red bull has contract for next season with Renault,

Uno my Uno.

Harika wrote: »

I think Renault would be happy to buy them, but you also have to think of the negative fallout for Red Bull if they simply close the doors, 1000+ people will be on the streets, lot of negative PR for the company that simply goes away. F1 has dealt with a lot of teams walking away, HRT, Catherham, BMW, Toyota recently or in general, so this is nothing new. On the other side, applications for new teams are open, Haas is coming, so even if they walk away with both teams, F1 will survive.

The team won't simply close the doors, it has a high value and lots of real assets. Red Bull will only exit f1 if they find a buyer. A major constructor would be most likely.

christy c wrote: »

Even if Renault bought Red Bull which isn't certain, what about Torro Rosso? Not many would have the cash to run 2 teams. It would be a huge blow to F1, to think otherwise would be daft.

Having said that, I think RB are just trying to play hard ball

I think if RB are going to sell any team it will be toro Rosso.

muckwarrior

Jordan 191 wrote: »

I see Red Bull have been involved in F1 since 1995.

Here is Heinz-Harald Frentzen at the 1995 Monaco GP driving the Sauber Ford C14:

I remember Red Bull in Formula 1 for years before I knew what the hell Red Bull was!

Frank Bullitt

From the autosport forum. Could agree more.

The sooner they quit, the better. I'm tired of their incessant whining. Is McLaren threatening to quit F1 because Honda gave them a turd? How many times has Frank Williams threatened to quit in the decade that they haven't been regular front runners? The problem is that DM isn't a racer at heart. He is a rich man with a short attention span. He'll get a boner for some other thing and throw everything at that for a few years until he is bored of that, too. Then on to the next shiny object. Good riddance.

That sums it up pretty well. Also they were back/midfield runners before and didn't mind. Then they had success and now they're back where they were they're throwing their toys out of the pram.

Frank Bullitt

Does anybody think that the FIA will do anything about the current rules for this year?

We are essentially seeing a 2 their F1 right now. Those with Mer and Ferrari units, and this with Renault and Honda. That can't be good for the sport that any upgrades or improving the units is severely restricted. Im not saying to fully open the rules for just Honda and Renault, but for the good of the sport I feel a change is needed.

Any decision would, for fairness sake, have to apply to all manufacturers to open the rules for a full on development window. I think Renault of all people were given this at the start of the V8 era when they were some horsepower down.

To me its just a joke with the penalties that get applied after qualy as well. A 25 place drop in a field of 20 cars...makes perfect sense.

This is part of some of the issues that affect F1 right now, and its the most obvious one that can be easily implemented with the most return. Merc already have this championship wrapped up with one of their drivers, the constructors is all theirs as well. No doubt though that they or Ferrari would protest such a move, but for the greater good of the current field, it would help a lot.

Harika

Gintonious wrote: »

Does anybody think that the FIA will do anything about the current rules for this year?

FIA gave the power for that kind of changes to the manufacturers, and Mercedes and partially Ferrari have no interest in giving away their advantages away. So they are one a stalemate what hurts F1 but profits Mercedes so they won't move. That was the beauty when Mosley was in control, he steered F1 and made unpopular decisions where the manufacturers had to follow or quit. They threatened to quit but never did. This threats hurt F1 also so they made the at the first glance smart move to let the manufacturers decide, what is now obviously not working. Todd is too weak to change here anything, so we will tumble further until it really hurts.
I think we could see a real two tier F1 very soon with Sauber, Force India and so on, using V8 engines again with some adjustments to keep them competitive but not in a league to fight for the crown. The trigger could be Renault or Honda quitting.
A solution would really be far more tokens and development time for Honda and Renault to catch up. They already try to get Brawn or Mosley back on board to make such moves for them.

Mitch Connor

Harika wrote: »

FIA gave the power for that kind of changes to the manufacturers, and Mercedes and partially Ferrari have no interest in giving away their advantages away. So they are one a stalemate what hurts F1 but profits Mercedes so they won't move. That was the beauty when Mosley was in control, he steered F1 and made unpopular decisions where the manufacturers had to follow or quit. They threatened to quit but never did. This threats hurt F1 also so they made the at the first glance smart move to let the manufacturers decide, what is now obviously not working. Todd is too weak to change here anything, so we will tumble further until it really hurts.
I think we could see a real two tier F1 very soon with Sauber, Force India and so on, using V8 engines again with some adjustments to keep them competitive but not in a league to fight for the crown. The trigger could be Renault or Honda quitting.
A solution would really be far more tokens and development time for Honda and Renault to catch up. They already try to get Brawn or Mosley back on board to make such moves for them.

I can see the arguement for Honda getting more dev time, but Renault have had the same time, testing and experience as Ferrari and Merc - they have simply fecked up, no sympathy for them. They benefited (and argued) for such development freezes when they were clearly on top.

Harika

Mitch Connor wrote: »

I can see the arguement for Honda getting more dev time, but Renault have had the same time, testing and experience as Ferrari and Merc - they have simply fecked up, no sympathy for them. They benefited (and argued) for such development freezes when they were clearly on top.

Mercedes got development time when they were inferior to Renault, so we have the same case here for Renault. Who benefits when Renault sucks? Mercedes, who suffers -> Red Bull and F1. Cause as much as RBs attitude sucks, they are part of F1, bring value to F1 and have a Fan Base. Pissing on parts of the customers of F1, viewers and attendees, just makes them go away. As much as I like F1 for being competitive and for pushing to make a better product with the testing limitations we have at the moment, they won't catch Mercedes until the engine formula changes.
So we can start full development for all again with risking getting costs out of control, an increased development time for Renault will keep costs lower and increase the show or keep everything as it is with only Mercedes as winner.

Infoanon

Gintonious wrote: »

Does anybody think that the FIA will do anything about the current rules for this year?

We are essentially seeing a 2 their F1 right now. Those with Mer and Ferrari units, and this with Renault and Honda. That can't be good for the sport that any upgrades or improving the units is severely restricted. Im not saying to fully open the rules for just Honda and Renault, but for the good of the sport I feel a change is needed.
.

When was F1 any different over the last 3 decades?, all thats changed is you have Red Bull making threats to quit which was going to happen sooner or later. Do you hear a true racing team like McLaren bad mouthing Honda or threatening to quit.

Frank Bullitt

Infoanon wrote: »

When was F1 any different over the last 3 decades?, all thats changed is you have Red Bull making threats to quit which was going to happen sooner or later. Do you hear a true racing team like McLaren bad mouthing Honda or threatening to quit.

I posted about this earlier in the thread about RB, I would actually like them go to in a way, less moaning to listen to.

F1 is severely different now than it was, engines were basic enough in that they were just combustion. KERS was a good intro in my view once it was implemented properly, and with the V8s as well I felt that F1 hit a decent balance with new tech and standard engine tech.

These new units are hugely complex, and manufacturers are really only given a small window to get them right, and if its off, then thats it more or less for the season.

This season is over already in many regards, has been for a few races. Its been a year since Mercedes were not on pole at a race and longer again since a non-Merc powered car sat at the front spot of the race. These rules benefit works teams over customers, hence McLaren taking a chance with Honda. Opening up the PU rules at this early stage of the current formula, to me at least, guarantees the fans at least somewhat of an exciting spectacle. Its not going to eradicate Mercs advantage, the car as a whole is a monster, its not going to mean the Sauber will be lapping everyone either. It could potentially close up the field more and give us what we all would like, actual racing.

Mitch Connor

Harika wrote: »

Mercedes got development time when they were inferior to Renault, so we have the same case here for Renault.

when did they get that?

Harika

Mitch Connor wrote: »

when did they get that?

2007/2008 and as they exploited it, the other makers also got to do it to catch up again.

Mitch Connor

Harika wrote: »

2007/2008 and as they exploited it, the other makers also got to do it to catch up again.

which team was this? I can't find anything online about this.

Also, I don't understand how you say they were allowed extra dev time and because they did well after, the other makers were allowed to do so as well. Why were they the only ones given extra dev time originally, and if they had still sucked would the other team not have been given extra time? It doesn't make sense.

Harika

Mitch Connor wrote: »

which team was this? I can't find anything online about this.

Also, I don't understand how you say they were allowed extra dev time and because they did well after, the other makers were allowed to do so as well. Why were they the only ones given extra dev time originally, and if they had still sucked would the other team not have been given extra time? It doesn't make sense.

At the end of 2006 the engines were frozen. Mercedes claimed reliability issues, what they used to improve performance too, what forced the FIA to let also Renault alter their engine.

Going Strong

The trouble with all this talk of the likes of Renault and Honda "Catching up" is that it presupposes that Mercedes will be standing still by order of the FIA or out of the goodness of their hearts. At the rate they've advanced since last season, there's no reason that Mercedes can't wipe the floor with the other engine makes even more than they already are.

Frank Bullitt

Interesting concept on the Williams today.

ScumLord

Going Strong wrote: »

The trouble with all this talk of the likes of Renault and Honda "Catching up" is that it presupposes that Mercedes will be standing still by order of the FIA or out of the goodness of their hearts. At the rate they've advanced since last season, there's no reason that Mercedes can't wipe the floor with the other engine makes even more than they already are.

Allowing the other teams to catch up isn't fair on Mercedes. That's a given. But they've got two years of victories out of their better engineering, how much has that made them I wonder? The sport is suffering because of the difference in performance.

PopePalpatine

Gintonious wrote: »

Interesting concept on the Williams today.

In the F1 subreddit, one poster suggested that constructors could pick two out of five "aerodynamic devices" like those. That might spice things up.

Frank Bullitt

Im not sure if this is totally legal though, I have been following Scarbs on Twitter about it and he isn't fully sure if this iteration at least, will be allowed.

Its a great idea if it is legal, you can see they are running some form of device under the floor also for measurement. It would clean up airflow a lot over the rear wheels.

LollipopJimmy

Christian Horner now calling for an end to the strategy group. The sceptic in me thinks this is largely due to the fact on current form there is every possibility there will be 6 teams ahead of them come the end of the year. Force India, Toro Rosso and Sauber could find themselves in the top 6. Red Bull will have more penalties and these teams are sitting ok in terms of Power Unit usage

Zcott

LollipopJimmy wrote: »

Christian Horner now calling for an end to the strategy group. The sceptic in me thinks this is largely due to the fact on current form there is every possibility there will be 6 teams ahead of them come the end of the year. Force India, Toro Rosso and Sauber could find themselves in the top 6. Red Bull will have more penalties and these teams are sitting ok in terms of Power Unit usage

Yep, it's definitely Red Bull's turn to complain about the way F1 is at the moment. Funny how Ferrari seem to have settled down a bit now they're doing ok...

Frank Bullitt

The Force India can blow its nose now...

Charlie-Bravo

Is the FI also sporting some wings off the edge of the floor to direct air over the rear wheels?

Frank Bullitt

Its a whole new front wing for sure, it doesn't have the Williams-Esque rear defectors in front of the wheels.

The new FI will also be at the next race.

smellslikeshoes

I wonder are we seeing something special with that nose on the Force India, second fastest today and Ocon saying it's "mega quick."

CFlat

For anyone interested, Max Mosley is going to be on George Hook on Newstalk in the next hour. I think he's written a book.

Frank Bullitt

Very interesting.

Myrddin

^^ Looking forward to seeing it in action. It'd be nice to see someone right up behind Ferrari & challenging for the second row

Frank Bullitt

Myrddin wrote: »

^^ Looking forward to seeing it in action. It'd be nice to see someone right up behind Ferrari & challenging for the second row

This part alone sums up the current state of F1.

ScumLord

Gintonious wrote: »

Very interesting.

Lets hope it's not for tying a tow rope on.

challengemaster

Alonso managed 104 laps.... that's just shy of his tally for the last 4 races :pac:

On a side note, there's a different angle on the Alo/Rai crash here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sf3QBaq06ec

The overall video is biased, but the footage at the start isn't edited or anything. Hard to tell but it does look like there might have been contact. Alonso was nowhere near the 5-6m back from Raikkonen he claimed he was, maybe 5-6 inches.

lee_baby_simms

http://www.planetf1.com/driver/3213/57433/Whitmarsh-fears-F1-will-crash-and-burn

Myrddin

challengemaster wrote: »

On a side note, there's a different angle on the Alo/Rai crash here:

The overall video is biased, but the footage at the start isn't edited or anything. Hard to tell but it does look like there might have been contact. Alonso was nowhere near the 5-6m back from Raikkonen he claimed he was, maybe 5-6 inches.

A full investigation by the stewards with video evidence and direct information from the drivers yielded a result of no further action. That's all their is to it, if there was more (a collision for example) there would have been a penalty applied to Alonso for causing it.

F1 fanatic

I wonder if allowing engine manufacturers to earn extra development tokens would work.

For example if the Customer teams agreed to it they could take some grid position drops in return for extra engine development tokens to try and catch up with the Mercs and ferrari.

Myrddin

What about some kind of system whereby the less constructor points a team has, the more they can work on development/tokens?

F1 fanatic

That one may be tricky as ferrari would have more constructor points than manor, both running ferrari engines

Myrddin

F1 fanatic wrote: »

That one may be tricky as ferrari would have more constructor points than manor, both running ferrari engines

Ah, true that...I suppose it wouldn't benefit customer teams in that sense.

antodeco

Or offer development tokens for various things over the weekend:

Most completed laps over 3 practice sessions (minimum amount required) - This would also improve attendance's as we would have more cars out.

Most overtakes (minimum number required) allows token to be used before next race

Best average laptime

Something like the above would keep it even throughout all the teams