Formula 1 2015: General Discussion Thread

Vic_08

TheDoctor wrote: »

Thought Haas was due to join next year.

They are, article states this " no more beyond 11 entries" There are only 10 on the grid this year.

Of course that 11 presumes that all current teams will survive into 2016 which is not a dead cert.

I hope Haas can make a good go of it, he certainly isn't lacking in ability but the precedent of recent new teams is not good.

mickdw

Vic_08 wrote: »

They are, article states this " no more beyond 11 entries" There are only 10 on the grid this year.

Of course that 11 presumes that all current teams will survive into 2016 which is not a dead cert.

I hope Haas can make a good go of it, he certainly isn't lacking in ability but the precedent of recent new teams is not good.

Ferrari will have to find another future entrant to rent 24 7 wind tunnel time to.

TheDoctor

Belgium 1998 currently on Sky F1. Mental race

jasonb

My mate and I watched that race in Hospital as he was pretty ill at the time. You should have heard his heart monitor during the race!

There's a great video on You Tube playing the radio conversations between Damon, Ralf and the team, including Damon's 'ultimatum' about letting him stay in front or the two cars might take each other out, and the repeated instructions to Ralf (who was faster at the time I think) telling him not to overtake Damon. It took him a long time to acknowledge those instructions

J.

mb1725

That video is well worth a look:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykI39M27y10

Myrddin

^^ the scream of those engines as the cars cross the line is unreal

aphex™

I heard somewhere (possibly Eddie let it slip) that they gave Ralph a $1m bonus that season to keep him on side after the whole Hill/Belgium thing.

Mike Litoris

Man, that brought a tear to my eye!

AMKC

How much better could that race have been if they had of let Ralf and Damon race. If Ralf was faster then he would have deserved the win and not Damon Hill. Might not have been good for Jordon do if they both crashed I suppose but still think it was a pity that they were not allowed race.

muckwarrior

IIRC the only reason Ralph was close enough to pass was because Damon's lead got wiped out due to a safety car, so it's not like it was particularly unfair to ask Ralph to hold station.

mickdw

AMKC wrote: »

How much better could that race have been if they had of let Ralf and Damon race. If Ralf was faster then he would have deserved the win and not Damon Hill. Might not have been good for Jordon do if they both crashed I suppose but still think it was a pity that they were not allowed race.

From watching it live at the time, there was no other decision to be made other than to tell them hold station.
Allowing them battle would have brought them back into the hands of the car behind - was it alesi?
There was also the strong chance of them crashing into each other plus in that era of f1, mechanical retirements were so so common that to do anything other than coax the cars to the finish would have been lunacy.
Eddie was no fool. I think people see him as a class clown now but he is certainly a smart guy and was well able to make the right call.

counterlock

mickdw wrote: »

From watching it live at the time, there was no other decision to be made other than to tell them hold station.
Allowing them battle would have brought them back into the hands of the car behind - was it alesi?
There was also the strong chance of them crashing into each other plus in that era of f1, mechanical retirements were so so common that to do anything other than coax the cars to the finish would have been lunacy.
Eddie was no fool. I think people see him as a class clown now but he is certainly a smart guy and was well able to make the right call.

I think it was part of the reason they lost Ralph though. He was excellent in 99 while Damon was was just cashing cheques. I wondered afterwards if it would have been worth it for the good of the team to let them race. I think Ralph and Frentzen would have been a great driver line up the year after, and with Mclarens reliability issues they would have had a real tilt at both titles

smellslikeshoes

counterlock wrote: »

I think it was part of the reason they lost Ralph though. He was excellent in 99 while Damon was was just cashing cheques. I wondered afterwards if it would have been worth it for the good of the team to let them race. I think Ralph and Frentzen would have been a great driver line up the year after, and with Mclarens reliability issues they would have had a real tilt at both titles

I'm not 100% sure but wasn't Ralph already on the way out at that stage and that was part of why they weren't really sure if he was actually going to accept the team orders. It's also a complete hindsight is 20/20 about not keeping Hill after 98, he fell off a cliff performance wise after 98, sure he was getting on in years but I doubt anyone expected his performances to drop so dramatically.

stevenmu

smellslikeshoes wrote: »

I'm not 100% sure but wasn't Ralph already on the way out at that stage and that was part of why they weren't really sure if he was actually going to accept the team orders.

They do mention that in the video too.

Infoanon

counterlock wrote: »

I think it was part of the reason they lost Ralph though. He was excellent in 99 while Damon was was just cashing cheques. I wondered afterwards if it would have been worth it for the good of the team to let them race. I think Ralph and Frentzen would have been a great driver line up the year after, and with Mclarens reliability issues they would have had a real tilt at both titles

The sponsors were willing to pay big money to have former world champion Damon Hill on board ,Hill was going to retire after the British GP but after a strong race performance he decided to continue for the rest of the season.

Jordan 199

Looking back at Jordan in 1998, they had scored no points until the British GP where Ralf scored the teams first point of the year. Gary Anderson was replaced by Mike Gascoyne, and the teams results were transformed when Gascoyne took over as designer.

That was some turnaround by Jordan. Feck all points in the first half of the season, 34 points in the second half of the season including a first and second place finish at Spa and a third place finish at Monza.

H3llR4iser

Myrddin wrote: »

Another anomaly was Schumi in 2012 at Monaco...arguably the toughest most technical bit of driving on the calender, & in his 40's he went fastest on the Saturday. I know this was an exception rather than the rule for Shumi on his return, but I think it is significant given the nature of the Monaco track.

mickdw wrote: »

But open cockpit seems to be a younger mans game. After all everyone seems to be finished in f1 at mid 30s.

smellslikeshoes wrote: »

Motivation probably plays a part in that though, most of the guys who are still there in their mid thirties have been doing it for 10 or 15 years and doing something as demanding as F1 for that long has to take it's toll.

F1 becoming childrens' playground is a recent trend - up until the '90s, for a driver to make it to the top series before the age of 25 was an uncommon accomplishment; Schumacher debuting at 22 and winning his first title at 25 was sensational at the time; Before him, Emerson Fittipaldi had been the "young sensation".

Alain Prost won his last championship aged 38, Nigel Mansell won his last race aged 41 and, had Senna lived, it's safe to bet he would have remained at the top until his late '30s / early 40s.

Even Schumacher's comeback was nothing to scoff about - he was in a difficult car with a strong team mate, and his previous run in an utterly dominant car made his performance look much worse than it was. Imagine if Hamilton took a break at the end of the season and came back in 2017, driving for Sauber...he'd be just the same, but people would inevitably compare his results to today's and say "oh he's lost it!".

Today we have drivers joining younger and younger because it's both cheap for the teams and convenient in terms of sponsorship/media attention; Just look at the coverage Max Verstappen gets. Some of these guys are talented, but the obsession with youngsters is producing some really bad side effects: they effectively risk to be chewed and spat out by F1 before they are 25. For this reason, most of them are constantly on the ragged edge desperate to prove themselves, because they know that tomorrow they will be old story: there'll be another 18-years-old ready to take their place.

I wonder why nobody ever asks themselves how, nowadays, it looks like almost any on-track scrap ends with carbon fiber flying, broken wings and flat tires (plus penalties, but that's a different story). Many times this season I've seen big battles involving one or more of the young hands, thought "this won't end well" and was proven right within minutes - including the infamous Monaco rear-ending.

Surely the more experienced guys make mistakes too, but think about the Alonso-Vettel battle in Silverstone last year, and you have a pretty stark contrast.

Even more importantly, guys like Vergne or Heidfeld are sidelined to make room for teenagers, and I feel Hulkenberg will most likely be the next victim; Not to mention the constant bashing as "old" befalling drivers who are 34 or 35...unless it's Alonso, who apparently can't be considered old at 34, while Button was already "old" five years ago, in popular talk

mickdw

I'd put the blame for ever younger drivers and the sidelining of many good drivers squarely at redbulls door.
When you have 2 teams completely tied up in terms of only recruiting young guys from outside the sport - their own young driver program, you can't avoid other people being prematurely retired.
Excellent point re alonso seemingly being good for 3 year plus deals while button was an old man 5 years ago.

Frank Bullitt

For the week thats in it.

Jordan 199

The front wing is funky! You have to give Gary Anderson huge credit for designing a good looking and fast racing car.

mickdw

Jordan 191 wrote: »

The front wing is funky! You have to give Gary Anderson huge credit for designing a good looking and fast racing car.

He designed alot of excellent cars.
Probably not given the credit he deserves.

H3llR4iser

In all fairness the Jordan 191 was a very conventional and uncomplicated car - it simply employed all the concepts that were big at the time, including the "gullwing" shaped front end.

And probably just because of such simplicity, it responded so well to setup and was so effective in race trim - with Alesi out and Senna in trouble, De Cesaris had a theoretical shot at winning in Spa until his engine expired. I always wondered what that car would have been capable of in the hands of a top-driver; I suspect it was more or less on par with the Ferrari 643 and the Benetton B191. A very young and inexperienced Schumacher qualified it 7th at his first and only attempt...who knows how much he would have had in store, had he gotten the time to acquaint better with the car.

The clean lines and the livery definitely make it the only or at least one of very few cars (including possibly the Ferrari 641/2) that can seriously contend the "most beautiful F1 car ever built" status to the Lotus 78.

Harika

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2015/08/19/raikkonen-to-stay-at-ferrari-in-2016/

That is a surprise and means bad news for Hulkenberg as he again won't get a top cockpit, Button whose alternative Williams seems now closed too, and Bottas who missed out at getting a better car.
Also the rumors about Verstappen joining Ferrari in 2017 are getting more steam again, although I highly doubt Ferrari would put such an inexperienced driver into their cars, the last time I think they did it was Regazzoni in the 70s. (okay did not do my homework very properly).

Myrddin

^^ very interesting, & surprising I find. I've often felt Arrivabene has been sympathetic to Kimi over this season, & wants him to remain on. I'd be happier if Kimi was putting in decent performances, but he's been...a bit lacklustre in recent years (reliability problems aside). Be nice to see him push Seb harder & more often.

Frank Bullitt

Its probably a smart move for Ferrari. A team needs a settled structure, and Ferrari have been changing internally now for a few years, and having to work with different drivers while trying to develop the car in a certain way can get a bit messy.

He hasn't been on the ball for a while to be honest, his return to Ferrari has been average at best. Beaten comprehensively by Alonso and now again by Vettel. Once more year won't hurt I'm sure, Ferrari haven't really got much to lose.

Harika

It could also mean they didn't wanted to buy Bottas out of his contract and signed him for 2017 and they didn't wanted to fill the gap with a new driver or even their development drivers like Vergne or Gutierrez, cause overall they might save Ferrari some 10 Million but the IceMan is quite possible one of the most known faces in F1 and you can get a lot of headlines with him, even as he hates promotion, he is more valuable at rare marketing occasions than alternatives.

Frank Bullitt

I really don't think Ferrari would hire or keep a driver for marketing, they have zero trouble with that.

Joeseph Balls

What's Kimi on a year, 25-30 mill?

Harika

Joeseph Balls wrote: »

What's Kimi on a year, 25-30 mill?

10 Million, according to rumours.

Frank Bullitt

10 mill I believe.

Joeseph Balls

Oh right. I thought I seen a post here what showed he wasn't far behind Alonso/Vet/Ham. Must not remember it right.
Does this fuel the rumours the Bottas is a made man for Ferrari in 2017? I think so. Beets having to get a new driver for one year.

AMKC

Happy to see Kimi get another year. Hopefully the rest of this season and next season will be better for him.

Cool_CM

TheDoctor wrote: »

Belgium 1998 currently on Sky F1. Mental race

Brazil 2012 is on now, another good one, albeit not as epic!

Frank Bullitt

Joeseph Balls wrote: »

Oh right. I thought I seen a post here what showed he wasn't far behind Alonso/Vet/Ham. Must not remember it right.
Does this fuel the rumours the Bottas is a made man for Ferrari in 2017? I think so. Beets having to get a new driver for one year.

The rumour today is for Verstappen for 2017, which is crazy if its true.

Joeseph Balls

Gintonious wrote: »

The rumour today is for Verstappen for 2017, which is crazy if its true.

I can't see it tbh.

Frank Bullitt

Joeseph Balls wrote: »

I can't see it tbh.

Agree, too young, inexperienced (will still be in 2017) and surely Red Bull will want to keep a reign on him.

smellslikeshoes

Gintonious wrote: »

Agree, too young, inexperienced (will still be in 2017) and surely Red Bull will want to keep a reign on him.

If he's as good as everyone hopes I think 2 years in F1 would be enough, it's still too early to tell though which is why I don't believe these rumours, maybe this time next year.

v3ttel

I'm very happy to have Kimi in F1 again next year, but for the love of God, will someone please give Hulkenburg a car that is capable of winning races.

Myrddin

v3ttel wrote: »

but for the love of God, will someone please give Hulkenburg a car that is capable of winning races.

The stars just don't seem set to align for Hulkenberg, it's a crying shame because he's a proper talent. It'd be such a shame to see him doomed to midfield obscurity for the rest of his career. He definitely deserves to be in a top 3 team.

Sterling Archer

I foresee more WEC and GT in his near future

Jordan 199

Mercedes will be sporting a new rear wing this weekend:



:cool:

Frank Bullitt

Its like the reverse of the Williams wing from a few years ago.

Mike Litoris

Jordan 191 wrote: »

The front wing is funky! You have to give Gary Anderson huge credit for designing a good looking and fast racing car.

Its coming to Assetto Corsa for anyone that plays it here.

Jordan 199

Mike Litoris wrote: »

Its coming to Assetto Corsa for anyone that plays it here.

Sweet! I'll be able to race that car on my Xbox One next year The last time I drove the 191 was Microprose Grand Prix.

Corben Dallas

:Ahem: ....its an Anheadral Front Nose on the Jordan191 so there.

Verstapen to Ferrari in 2017. < No way total BS. Way too young, hasnt done anything, got a Lllloooootttt to learn, Bottas is more likely in 2017.

+plus for marketing reasons???!!!! LOL Ferrari isnt RedBull total BS.

Cookie_Monster

Alonso: I should have left Ferrari two years earlier

http://www.driven.co.nz/news/motorsport/alonso-should-have-left-ferrari-earlier/?ref=NZHNetwork

smellslikeshoes

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Alonso: I should have left Ferrari two years earlier

http://www.driven.co.nz/news/motorsport/alonso-should-have-left-ferrari-earlier/?ref=NZHNetwork

The only newsworthy part of that is how much has changed that he would openly say something like that. With hindsight, of course he should have left Ferrari earlier. Alonso spent 5 of his best years dragging around mediocre Ferrari's to positions they had no business being in.

Andrew76

smellslikeshoes wrote: »

The only newsworthy part of that is how much has changed that he would openly say something like that. With hindsight, of course he should have left Ferrari earlier. Alonso spent 5 of his best years dragging around mediocre Ferrari's to positions they had no business being in.

Did he have many options at the time though? Red Bull didn't want to upset the winning formula they had with Vettel and who could've predicted Merc's rise to dominance? Didn't he try join them but they said no (I'm sure plenty of drivers sent their CV Merc's way)?

If Honda get the finger out for next year it would make things much more interesting. Wonder will Button still be around to see any change in fortune.

F1 fanatic

Good news. Talks of bringing back ground effect aerodynamics to improve overtaking. Should never have been removed.

GarIT

F1 fanatic wrote: »

Good news. Talks of bringing back ground effect aerodynamics to improve overtaking. Should never have been removed.

No technology that doesn't cause danger or automate any of the driving should ever be banned.