Formula 1 2015: General Discussion Thread

Charlie-Bravo

I think with an object striking the driver's head location, be it a helmet or close cockpit, it needs to be designed to take an impact at the speed at which F1/indycar go at. Sure, maybe having a closed cockpit adds an extra layer, but what's stopping the re-design of helmets to mimic the added element of a closed cockpit? Or perhaps this has been looked at already and it's nothing new! I'm not a helmet design engineer, but how much more resilient are F1 helmets over say lower category racing helmets?

Going Strong

It's not so much the helmet but the force of any impact on the neck/spine area. Not to mention the blunt force trauma affecting the brain.

I think some sort of cockpit enclosure is inevitable in the near future - 2018 seems likely as the entire formula regulations are due a 're-write' then in any case. The FIA have been looking at some sort of protective cover for a few years now so Justin Wilson's tragic death will be seen as yet another reason to implement the changes rather a trigger in itself.

Ghost Train

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e87HIlOIYFA

HighLine

They can close the cockpit as much as they want, won't make much of a difference to spectators as far as I'm concerned....just so long as they leave room for a 3.0 V10 in the back.

Tea 1000

HighLine wrote: »

They can close the cockpit as much as they want, won't make much of a difference to spectators as far as I'm concerned....just so long as they leave room for a 3.0 V10 in the back.

You can sing that!

Jordan 199

HighLine wrote: »

just so long as they leave room for a 3.0 V10 in the back.

Amen Reverend Highline

F1 fanatic

They might even go down the road of a dragster style roll hoop. I hope not it would look awful

F1 fanatic

According to Sky Sports lotus cars have been allowed to leave Spa. Court issues still not resolved.
Gonna be a tight turn around for monza.

tigerboon

tripperman wrote: »

Be just like le mans LMP1 closed cockpits they have wipers like a road car

They have wipers and tear off layers. Also the more aero shape of the F1 drawing would help water disperse around the cockpit. It's also worth noting that it's not just a closed cockpit but more a survival cell. Look at Rockenfellers crash at Le Mans a few years back. He crashed at about 200mph and the driver cell was nearly the only bit left of the car. Even the windscreen remained intact. As far as I remember he hurt his foot despite the track looking like a plane crash had happened. Alan McNish had a massive crash the same year. It was Audi's first year with closed cockpits.

Jordan 199

LIGHTNING wrote: »

I on the other hand use a pretty entry level helmet, its still not bad (it did stop a exhaust hitting me at high speed before).

Is it a bucket with two holes cut out for the eyes?

Frank Bullitt

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Joe Seward made the point that with closed cockpits they could have open helmets and you could actually see their faces as they drive around. In Singapore when there's no sun, they wear clear visors and it's cool to see their face and eyes as they drive.

No chance of that happening. Imagine if the screen broke or failed?

In LMP they have closed cockpits but they still use a full face helmet. Thats here to stay.

Infoanon

Gintonious wrote: »

No chance of that happening. Imagine if the screen broke or failed?

In LMP they have closed cockpits but they still use a full face helmet. Thats here to stay.

A number of years ago Jesus Pareja turned up for at a sports car street race but had forgot his helmet - an open face helmet,he borrowed a helmet for the race - a full face helmet.

During practice(or the race?) a drain pipe came lose and cut the fuel line of his race car causing an instant inferno - Pareja walked away from the fire.

From then on he used a full face helmet.

El_Duderino 09

Gintonious wrote:

No chance of that happening. Imagine if the screen broke or failed?

In LMP they have closed cockpits but they still use a full face helmet. Thats here to stay.

I agree. There is absolutely no will to move towards closed cockpits. Joe was saying that the one and only marketing reason in favour of the move, is that you could see their faces.

The undead dictator of F1 has only ever mentioned it with the same seriousness as artificial rain.

Andrew76

LIGHTNING wrote: »

They are tested quite thoroughly, they use ballistic tests to see what they can take. The Visors are designed to stop a certain weight impacting at a certainly velocity above that then it wont fully stop the object. However hitting an entire nosecone assembly at 150+mph is a different matter. The amount of kinetic energy in that impact is huge realistically speaking a helmet can only do so much

Its the same way that a ballistic vest will stop a 9mm bullet but it wont stop a 50 cal round. I did see a video about helmet testing a few years ago cant find it now though. You also have to remember that you can make a helmet too heavy. You could start adding layers of kevlar and plates but then it becomes a hazard to the drivers neck in a crash.

As for your last question, you can buy the helmets they use in F1 they are pretty pricey. The really expensive lids are very light which is where a lot of the cost comes from. Lower category's like GP2,GP3 will still be using top quality helmets. I on the other hand use a pretty entry level helmet, its still not bad (it did stop a exhaust hitting me at high speed before).

So basically the technology isn't there yet to make a helmet withstand much higher impacts and yet still be light enough to wear. Then there's trauma to the neck/spine to worry about. F1 is only ever going to move in a safer direction (which is good) and if that eventually means cockpits so be it - they'll just have to invent solutions to the problems they would bring.

If I was a driver my concern with a cockpit would be getting stuck inside one if a fire broke out. They'd have to have some way to get out quick and without fail.

That McLaren above looks lovely imo.

Charlie-Bravo

Fighter jets have ejector seats. Que Bernie suggesting ejector seats to improve the show.

Kidding of course, safety is so important. F1 has a tough task to try and eliminate (not that it could ever be 100% eliminated) this area of safety risk.

Jordan 199

v3ttel wrote: »

I'm very happy to have Kimi in F1 again next year, but for the love of God, will someone please give Hulkenburg a car that is capable of winning races.

I think if Hulkenburg doesn't end up in a race winning car in the next few years he might make a full time switch to sports car racing.

challengemaster

Jordan 191 wrote: »

I think if Hulkenburg doesn't end up in a race winning car in the next few years he might make a full time switch to sports car racing.

Looks like Button might already be heading that way, giving WRC a test.

mickdw

challengemaster wrote: »

Looks like Button might already be heading that way, giving WRC a test.

I quite like the idea of button switching to rally.
Sportscars even WEC always seems like a home for old drivers.

Myrddin

mickdw wrote: »

old drivers.

That's the thing about Jenson, he's only a year older than Alonso I think but we don't hear these retirement stories about him. Button has plenty left to offer, & it'd be great to see him in a car with a fighting chance, but he seems doomed to be thought of as the dinosaur of the sport

Robbo

challengemaster wrote: »

Looks like Button might already be heading that way, giving WRC a test.

That's rallycross.

flazio

I imagine that McLaren are somehow well compensating him and Alonso for the lack of prize money that they are earning.
Not that I think Button and Alonso aren't worth it, but I do wonder if perhaps McLaren had opted for one or two pay drivers (even as an FP1 driver) build up some sponsors direct some of the savings towards car development and giving Honda a few bob they might be at least be in the midfield tussle.

Jordan 199

OSI wrote: »

I actually met Jenson in Spa over the weekend. For a man struggling to outpace the Manor's in a car that spends less time running than he does, he is in remarkably good spirits.

Did you see Eddie Jordan about at all?

AMKC

Red Bull are saying they don,t want another season like this years as its not good for them and they are saying that its more than likely that they will have an engine from one of the other 3 and not Renault. Mercedes have said they would give them some. What engine do you think will be in the back of a Red Bull next year? Will it be a Mercedes, Ferrari or a very unlikely Honda engine?

tigerboon

AMKC wrote: »

Red Bull are saying they don,t want another season like this years as its not good for them and they are saying that its more than likely that they will have an engine from one of the other 3 and not Renault. Mercedes have said they would give them some. What engine do you think will be in the back of a Red Bull next year? Will it be a Mercedes, Ferrari or a very unlikely Honda engine?

Hopefully Ferrari or Honda then. It wouldn't be good for the sport to have total Mercedes dominance. It would prevent development as well with all the prize money paying for Mercedes power

El_Duderino 09

tigerboon wrote:

Hopefully Ferrari or Honda then. It wouldn't be good for the sport to have total Mercedes dominance. It would prevent development as well with all the prize money paying for Mercedes power

I'd love to think Honda will turn it around in the next 2 years. They have all to play for with the hybrid technology so it's really worth their while developing the technology for their road cars. I hope that's the case but they weren't world beaters in their last stint in F1 - except the Braun car which had a Mercedes engine.

Harika

I am hopeful that McLaren can turn it around cause I believe Honda when they say that their engine is as good as the Ferrari one but the McLaren chassis is just bad, what the chief designer more or less confirmed.
But Honda has also denied to equip a second team with engines as it is not beneficial to them yet and RedBull is not known for not blaming their engine partner.

mickdw

Harika wrote: »

I am hopeful that McLaren can turn it around cause I believe Honda when they say that their engine is as good as the Ferrari one but the McLaren chassis is just bad, what the chief designer more or less confirmed.
But Honda has also denied to equip a second team with engines as it is not beneficial to them yet and RedBull is not known for not blaming their engine partner.

If you believe that, you will believe anything.
The honda engine is nowhere near and I'm disappointed by this type of bluffing by honda. To say they would be on par with the ferrari engine is a joke. Even if they suddenly manage to get it reliable, it's not efficient enough to match merc or ferrari so they will be behind until they can improve that.

Frank Bullitt

mickdw wrote: »

If you believe that, you will believe anything.
The honda engine is nowhere near and I'm disappointed by this type of bluffing by honda. To say they would be on par with the ferrari engine is a joke. Even if they suddenly manage to get it reliable, it's not efficient enough to match merc or ferrari so they will be behind until they can improve that.

I found this article interesting about it - http://www.grid1.tv/motorsport/article/f1s-summer-holiday-craig-scarborough

The engine itself may well be as good as Ferrari or Renault, but its the hybrid system that is proving to be the big issue for Honda.

mickdw

Gintonious wrote: »

I found this article interesting about it - http://www.grid1.tv/motorsport/article/f1s-summer-holiday-craig-scarborough

The engine itself may well be as good as Ferrari or Renault, but its the hybrid system that is proving to be the big issue for Honda.

But you can't really talk about the engine alone anymore. Its the quality of the energy recovery that achieves the efficiencies required to be competitive. Honda are not at the races - literally.

El_Duderino 09

Harika wrote:

I am hopeful that McLaren can turn it around cause I believe Honda when they say that their engine is as good as the Ferrari one but the McLaren chassis is just bad, what the chief designer more or less confirmed. But Honda has also denied to equip a second team with engines as it is not beneficial to them yet and RedBull is not known for not blaming their engine partner.

mickdw wrote:

If you believe that, you will believe anything. The honda engine is nowhere near and I'm disappointed by this type of bluffing by honda. To say they would be on par with the ferrari engine is a joke. Even if they suddenly manage to get it reliable, it's not efficient enough to match merc or ferrari so they will be behind until they can improve that.

How are either of you measuring this?

Frank Bullitt

mickdw wrote: »

But you can't really talk about the engine alone anymore. Its the quality of the energy recovery that achieves the efficiencies required to be competitive. Honda are not at the races - literally.

That was what I was getting at. The ICE is probably on par with others, but as a package its nowhere near it yet.

As for the McLaren chassis, the slower tracks where engine power is negated more, has indicated that the chassis of the McL is far from bad. Its the strongest element of the car.

El_Duderino 09

OSI wrote:

You know what was very telling sitting track side at Spa, the only cars that had the red flashing "harvesting" light on whilst coming around Pouhon on a consistent basis were the McLarens. Said enough for me.

If you weren't being techy and telling us you're an experienced GP goer, what would you have said?

Frank Bullitt

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

If you weren't being techy and telling us you're an experienced GP goer, what would you have said?

The red light flashes on the cars now to indicate that they are harvesting.

smellslikeshoes

Looking like the Renault/Enstone saga could be nearing it's conclusion according to Autosport. It's going to be interesting to see who is going to end up with what engine next year, my guess is Merc and Renault will make an agreement for a straight swap between Lotus and RBR.

El_Duderino 09

OSI wrote:

While everyone else was putting down the horses, McLaren were recharging the batteries.

Thanks

The preponderance of reports (the only metric I have) suggests that the Honda is 50-100bhp Down on the Mercedes. With that said the McLaren was no great shakes the last 2 years, with a Mercedes engine so I suspect there's a pair of them in it and it's convenient for each to blame the other.

They haven't exactly had sponsors fighting for sidepod space in the last few years either so I don't suspect they have replaced the technical personal they lost over the last few years

Ghost Train

Makes sense for Renault to have their own team, they don't get much from the Redbull partnership even when winning, usually Newey getting most of the praise when the car won

Would be nice to have a Renault team there alongside Ferrari and Mercedes

mickdw

OSI wrote: »

While everyone else was putting down the horses, McLaren were recharging the batteries.

I thought from watching the race coverage that button had a bigger problem than alonso in that his car was going into harvest mode far too soon and giving him nothing when needed most.
Alonso I believe had a fully functioning car but even at that they wouldn't have a system as sorted and efficient as mercedes, ferrari or Renault.

tigerboon

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

How are either of you measuring this?

I believe Mclaren Honda will be competitive next year. I have no basis for this only that it is Mclaren and Honda.

To be honest a car harvesting through pouhon would be ideal.

AMKC

tigerboon wrote: »

I believe Mclaren Honda will be competitive next year. I have no basis for this only that it is Mclaren and Honda.

Hopefully they are it would be great to see. Honda still have a lot of learning to do on the new hybrid engines do. As a lot of people have said Mclaren and Honda underestimated the task and Honda really should have waited till next year to start supplying Mclaren with engines. Maybe they have learnt things this year that they might not have had the engine not been in a race car but it has also been very embarrassing for Mclaren and Honda at time too. Having to learn about it over race weekends too is not the best situation either but hopefully it will all be beneficial to them for next year. They have got there engine more reliable going by there last two races. There biggest problem now is there electronics and getting the ICE and Hybrid system working together.

Harika

Gintonious wrote: »

That was what I was getting at. The ICE is probably on par with others, but as a package its nowhere near it yet.

As for the McLaren chassis, the slower tracks where engine power is negated more, has indicated that the chassis of the McL is far from bad. Its the strongest element of the car.

In Hungary they were 15/16 and in Spa 17/18, while RedBull moved from 4/7 to 7/12 so I would say RedBull suffers more than McLaren, during the race they were lucky to finish that high but without the chaos, they were nowhere. I also asked myself why they had to change the harder tyres in the Spa race before other teams had to swap used softs, this could be engine too btw.

Jordan 199

Does anyone think Lewis will have the drivers title wrapped up before the last race of the season?

El_Duderino 09

Jordan 191 wrote:

Does anyone think Lewis will have the drivers title wrapped up before the last race of the season?

Oh I'd say so. Reliability has been improved on the Mercedes since last year so I'd say it's unlikely to be a major factor. Hamilton is faster than Rosberg this season.

Qualifying on pole kept Rosberg in the picture last year but Hamilton has improved since then. The last 2 races have been more about Rosberg chasing through the pack than challenging for the victory.

I say this as a Rosberg supporter.

jasonb

I think it's probably easier to ask if anyone thinks Lewis won't have it wrapped up before the last race! As El Duderino said, Lewis is just faster this season. I can't think of a race that Rosberg won that wasn't due to some mistake or issue on Lewis' part. And conversely, I can think of a few races where Lewis won comfortably while Rosberg just trailed behind him. Lewis has owned Rosberg this season.

J.

Myrddin

Nico has it in him to summon something though & put Lewis under pressure. There's still loads of races to go, & Lewis effectively has only one race in hand. A reliability problem for Lewis here or there, a bad race or two for Lewis, and things could easily flip between the two. In saying that though, Lewis has seriously stepped up this season.

Spudman_20000

Myrddin wrote: »

Nico has it in him to summon something though & put Lewis under pressure. There's still loads of races to go, & Lewis effectively has only one race in hand. A reliability problem for Lewis here or there, a bad race or two for Lewis, and things could easily flip between the two. In saying that though, Lewis has seriously stepped up this season.

I'm afraid Nico will never have what it takes to be world champ. He already looks like a beaten man and I can't see any kind of fight back this season.

Race in Hungry was the perfect example; made no progress through the field, took the harder tyre in the last stint when he could easily took the medium, and then subsequently ended up running his car wide for no reason and getting a puncture.

Nico is a perfect number 2 driver.

mickdw

Spudman_20000 wrote: »

I'm afraid Nico will never have what it takes to be world champ. He already looks like a beaten man and I can't see any kind of fight back this season.

Race in Hungry was the perfect example; made no progress through the field, took the harder tyre in the last stint when he could easily took the medium, and then subsequently ended up running his car wide for no reason and getting a puncture.

Nico is a perfect number 2 driver.

The other way to look at that is that Nico could have been ahead of Lewis on points but for terribly bad luck in being hit and punctured by another car.
For all hamiltons superiority, he can't seem to make any gap from Rosberg.

Spudman_20000

mickdw wrote: »

The other way to look at that is that Nico could have been ahead of Lewis on points but for terribly bad luck in being hit and punctured by another car.
For all hamiltons superiority, he can't seem to make any gap from Rosberg.

That's being very generous to Rosberg. You make your own luck. If he fitted the mediums, he would never had been in a position to be caught by Ricciardo in the first place. Instead he made a very conservative call to put on a set of hards.

Nico bottled that race, could have closed the gap to a couple of points.

It's the difference between champions and nearly men.

Ghost Train

Forgetting what has gone before, there are 8 races left, 200 points available, Rosberg just 28 points behind. To some extent you make your own luck but there are outside factors. Weather can be a big factor, reliability not a big issue but towards the end of the year one of the drivers can get unlucky, teams can make a mistake or bad pitstop. Lewis driving better and hard to see that changing but when it comes to closing out the season if one or two things go Rosbergs way, might start getting to Lewis

AMKC

It has been reported Renault are going to buy 65% of the Lotus team. Its just down to Lotus shareholders now.

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/08/29/renault-buys-lotus-f1-team/

I have also heard a rumour that Paster Maldonado will go to Force India and Sergio Perez to Renault.
Not sure Force India would be too happy about that.

This has been connected with the rumour that Red Bull will get a Mercedes engine.

We should all hear a lot more about all this during the next week.