Formula 1 2015: General Discussion Thread

bbability

As much as 3 seconds slower on the straights and 0.3secs in corners (aero package). This reminds me of when Jordan's moved to Yamaha in the early 90s.

Frank Bullitt

Time and time again, the deficit points to the unit.

AMKC

I think Honda and Mclaren will be much improved and a lot more competitive next year. There two biggest problems are getting all there systems working together and keeping it cool as they have such a tight package. There ICE unit is good it is just that working with the hybrid part of the power unit is not right yet. I think they will have that problem sorted by next year. This year has been a really hard one for them and I don,t think they want another year like that. I just hope Alonso and Button are still there after this year they deserve to have a better car. Jenson was saying recently that he has used more engine components this year than in the whole of the rest of his F1 driving.

Harika

I want to throw in Renaults come back in 2001 with Benetton, they were regularly in the second last row, in front of the Minardis, sometimes threatened by a rookie called Alonso. It took them further two years for their first win and two more years for the WDC.

HighLine

Harika wrote: »

I want to throw in Renaults come back in 2001 with Benetton, they were regularly in the second last row, in front of the Minardis, sometimes threatened by a rookie called Alonso. It took them further two years for their first win and two more years for the WDC.

At a time when testing and finances were close to unlimited. A much different situation these days.

Harika

HighLine wrote: »

At a time when testing and finances were close to unlimited. A much different situation these days.

Yes, on the plus side, the Benetton factory was heavily outdated, while the McLaren factory seems to be state of the art. Also the engine was revolutionary with the 110 degree angle (that was later changed), and it seems Honda took a similar way by making the engine slimmer than the rest of the field.

Going Strong

McLaren's poor performance is beginning to impact on the finances says Eric Boullier.

Struggling McLaren-Honda Formula 1 team fears revenue blow

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/120727

Frank Bullitt

http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/32420/9983506/fuelling-f1s-battle-for-engine-supremacy-in-2015

Interesting article on the effect of fuels now with engine development.

Charlie-Bravo

Wow, Mobil 1 need to get their act together with Honda then and perhaps they might start working their way up the grid. So engine, chassis/aero and fuel all need to designed well...and work together.

Frank Bullitt

This again would highlight why it pays to be a complete manufacturer or works team with a bespoke engine.

Frank Bullitt

astrofluff wrote: »

Wow, Mobil 1 need to get their act together with Honda then and perhaps they might start working their way up the grid. So engine, chassis/aero and fuel all need to designed well...and work together.

Big time, thats why this current formula is so complex.

Charlie-Bravo

Brian_Zeluz wrote: »

Adding that to BTCC (ITV4 via FilmOn) and World Rallycross (they have their own livestream) and it's very difficult to just justify watching the snore fest that F1 has become.

I saw some of the British Rallycross on Eurosport this evening. Looks cool! Would love to have the cash to race in something like that. And the Joker lap is a great idea. Back on topic: F1 could do with a Joker lap for the craic!

mickdw

astrofluff wrote: »

Wow, Mobil 1 need to get their act together with Honda then and perhaps they might start working their way up the grid. So engine, chassis/aero and fuel all need to designed well...and work together.

Whatever happened to the idea of regulated fuel?
I believe a pretty standard fuel has to be used but the fuel companies are working to new levels of detail very finely adjusting composition and gaining stupidly big hp from it.

F1 fanatic

Honda being outraced by Chevrolet in indy car.
They just don't seem to be producing good engines anywhere lately.

Myrddin

I wonder what the mid-term prospect for McLarn Honda are now. If next year doesn't see a drastic improvement (constant top ten positions), are McLaren in a potentially forced situation of having to abandon the Honda alliance, and look elsewhere for engines? Or could they take another year like this on the chin & gamble again on 2017?

aphex™

I don't think they can walk away, Honda also invest a lot of cash in Mclaren F1 team as a sponsor and there are no alternatives at present.

Myrddin

aphex™ wrote: »

I don't think they can walk away, Honda also invest a lot of cash in Mclaren F1 team as a sponsor and there are no alternatives.

It's just on the back of Boulier's comments about things now starting to affect finances at the team, I was wondering what'll the story be next season if things don't drastically change? Will Honda interject & supply additional funding yeah?

Uno my Uno.

F1 fanatic wrote: »

Honda being outraced by Chevrolet in indy car.
They just don't seem to be producing good engines anywhere lately.

Chevy did win more races this season (10 - 6) but Honda had a good run of wins at the end of the season, winning four of the last six races. A clear win for Chevy but not a total rout.

Frank Bullitt

Apparently Honda are putting their unit into the back of a Formula Nippon, not sure if is much benefit really.

H3llR4iser

Just a few random thoughts touching on some of the key points above:

In season testing

It might help some teams/engine suppliers struggling with issues, but there is also a potential downside: historically, testing helped the teams with higher cash availability the most; Latest example in history, the Ferrari 2002-2004 utter dominance. In other words,there is a fairly substantial risk AMG Mercedes would streak even further ahead, only mitigating factor being the law of diminishing returns (it should be easier for, say, Lotus to find out major flaws with their package, than for AMG to spot the tiny margin of improvement);

Red Bull Mercedes?

It would be fun, but I seriously doubt this year's Red Bull would have beaten the AMG cars with the same engine. They'd be closer, maybe near where Ferrari is.
I don't know why nobody wants to see it but it's clear from how tidy and elementally fast the silver arrows are, that Hamilton and Rosberg have the best chassis on the grid underneath them - not just a rocket of an engine strapped to a decent car. Williams and Force India are decent cars with the "rocket" in the back, and they can't even get the upper hand on Ferrari unless the later screws up with settings. Even on power tracks. And let's not even cover Lotus, who clearly found a setup "sweet spot" in Spa - then disappeared again in Monza. In general, I feel the importance of power units on laptimes to be quite a bit overestimated by the public - and exaggerated by some teams who are looking for somebody to blame for their failures.

McLaren-Honda saga

I have to say I fully expected what is happening; Honda has shown in the past an attitude that can work wonders when things go right (1986-1991) or spell disaster when difficulties arise (1992, 2000-2008). They seem to always firmly believe in what they are doing, which can lead to being unable to realize how bad a project really is - take a look at the the recent, delusional claims about their engines being better than Renault's - promptly retracted in Monza, when they finally said they're some 180hp short.

The one-year-behind-in-development story doesn't hold much water either: last year, during winter testing, power units from Ferrari, Mercedes and Renault went up in flames basically every second lap. Everyone was expecting a 3 or 4 cars finish in Melbourne, but it didn't happen - they all had found decent reliability in the space of weeks. Although they are improving, Honda seems incapable of doing the same for some odd reason.

However, as usual the story has two sides - the McLaren chassis also seems to be, in the very least, problematic. The team says it's a cracker, but looking at how much the car moved underneath Button and Alonso in the Parabolica suggests otherwise: the car wanted to go anywhere but where the drivers were trying to steer it. And the Parabolica in one daemon of a corner, a tough test for mechanical grip. If a car squirms and fights through it like the McLaren did, it means chassis/suspension issues.

flazio

Maybe it's time someone snorkeled up to Ross Brawn's fishing boat and told him to come in.

mickdw

flazio wrote: »

Maybe it's time someone snorkeled up to Ross Brawn's fishing boat and told him to come in.

I don't think Brawn has gone away.
I can see him making a come back for next year with a view to 2017 design changes and onwards.

tripperman

mickdw wrote: »

I don't think Brawn has gone away.
I can see him making a come back for next year with a view to 2017 design changes and onwards.

Who's your money on him returning with? I'd say Ron Dennis is on that phone to him

aphex™

Myrddin wrote: »

It's just on the back of Boulier's comments about things now starting to affect finances at the team, I was wondering what'll the story be next season if things don't drastically change? Will Honda interject & supply additional funding yeah?

Maybe, or the TAG Group might be good for a loan as a favor.

mickdw

tripperman wrote: »

Who's your money on him returning with? I'd say Ron Dennis is on that phone to him

Id say mclaren if he could get the control he needs. Might not be so simple though.

Re funding of mclaren, I'd say themselves and ferrari are 2 teams that could and would continue without any outside sponsorship.
Mclaren road cars division as well as the electronics division would both be very much dependant on the mclaren brand and I'd say going racing is an acceptable cost involved in that business.

H3llR4iser

mickdw wrote: »

Id say mclaren if he could get the control he needs. Might not be so simple though.

Re funding of mclaren, I'd say themselves and ferrari are 2 teams that could and would continue without any outside sponsorship.
Mclaren road cars division as well as the electronics division would both be very much dependant on the mclaren brand and I'd say going racing is an acceptable cost involved in that business.

Ferrari, certainly - they do have a lot of business outside racing (believe it or not, there are people in the US who don't even know Ferrari has racing teams in various categories!) and also, should things go really bad, have the FCA parent company to help them (Ferrari had some serious money troubles in the '80s to the early '90s, which were essentially solved by an injection of FIAT money).

McLaren...I am not sure. They make road cars, but I would imagine their market isn't anywhere as flourishing as Ferrari's in terms of sheer numbers. I know they also supply electronics and technology, but I admit my partial ignorance here: besides the F1 ECUs and some odd collaboration with car makers (e.g. Mercedes SLR), do they have any substantial contracts?

mickdw

H3llR4iser wrote: »

Ferrari, certainly - they do have a lot of business outside racing (believe it or not, there are people in the US who don't even know Ferrari has racing teams in various categories!) and also, should things go really bad, have the FCA parent company to help them (Ferrari had some serious money troubles in the '80s to the early '90s, which were essentially solved by an injection of FIAT money).

McLaren...I am not sure. They make road cars, but I would imagine their market isn't anywhere as flourishing as Ferrari's in terms of sheer numbers. I know they also supply electronics and technology, but I admit my partial ignorance here: besides the F1 ECUs and some odd collaboration with car makers (e.g. Mercedes SLR), do they have any substantial contracts?

I believe mclaren sell about 1500 cars per year whereas ferrari sell 6 or 7000.
I don't know what the figures are like but mclaren were loss making in the road cars division in the early days anyway.
I think the electronics side is a big enough business. F1 ecu, sensors and systems for a while range of applications.
Someone told me that they supply pretty much the whole powertrain to the formula e teams too and I believe they may have some government defence contracts too.

Frank Bullitt

McLaren supply all the ECUs to Nascar, Indy car as well I believe. Sky did a report on it before and it showed all of the different units they supply.

recyclebin

Here's that clip from Sky from 2012 about the ECU

smellslikeshoes

tripperman wrote: »

Who's your money on him returning with? I'd say Ron Dennis is on that phone to him

Too many cooks in that kitchen already. Ron Dennis would have to take a complete step back for that to happen and I'm not sure if that is something he would do again.

I don't think Brawn will come back but if he did my money would be on Renault (assuming the deal eventually goes through). Lots of personnel changes and investment will be needed and Brawn would be ideal to oversee it.

Jordan 199

Melbourne to host Australian Grand Prix until at least 2023.

Good stuff

smellslikeshoes

Some of the pictures going around of the smog in Singapore would make your lungs hurt just looking at them, could definitely see the GP canceled if it continues.

aphex™

Nah they'll run a few laps under SC THEN cancel it.

Bernie says 'Think before you drive cancel the race'

stevenmu

Is Singapore one of the tracks where they're allowed race when the medical helicopter can't fly? I believe some tracks are close enough to a hospital to allow it.

Frank Bullitt

I can't see the race being cancelled, doesn't China get smog like this for the races there as well?

smellslikeshoes

Gintonious wrote: »

I can't see the race being cancelled, doesn't China get smog like this for the races there as well?

Don't forget that it's a night race, lights going through thick smog particles would lead to some pretty ****ty visability.

Frank Bullitt

smellslikeshoes wrote: »

Don't forget that it's a night race, lights going through thick smog particles would lead to some pretty ****ty visability.

True, I still don't see it being cancelled.

Although, I have been in Shanghai on days such as those in the photos, and you are in a heap from it. I nearly coughed up a lung from it.

El_Duderino 09

aphexâ„&#162 wrote:

Nah they'll run a few laps under SC THEN cancel it. Bernie says 'Think before you drive cancel the race'

Exactly this. There's no point speculating about it at this stage. There's so much money at stake that they will wait until the last moment to decide.

Cookie_Monster

Gintonious wrote: »

I can't see the race being cancelled, doesn't China get smog like this for the races there as well?

Shanghai was the same or worse when we were there this year for the race, the track was a little better being quite far out from the CBD but you could still see it in the air.

smellslikeshoes wrote: »

Don't forget that it's a night race, lights going through thick smog particles would lead to some pretty ****ty visability.

the sheer wattage of the lights will overcome that. And it's not really an issue over short distances like the length of straights, only longer distance when looking at buildings a couple hundred metres away.

guyfo

Looks like it's due to air quality rather than visibility:

http://www.crash.net/f1/news/223058/1/singapore-gp-organisers-assessing-haze-concerns.html

With the race already the most physically demanding of the season this could raise issues.

Myrddin

I'd be seriously surprised if the race doesn't go ahead myself

Going Strong

Renault still unsure of their future in F1.

Renault has confirmed that it will cease to be an engine supplier to Red Bull and Toro Rosso, reducing the options it has available as it considers its Formula 1 future.


http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/330191/ghosn-renault-finished-as-engine-supplier/

flazio

Anyone remember Mechachrome or Supertec?

tripperman

flazio wrote: »

Anyone remember Mechachrome or Supertec?

Yeah they were rebraned Renault engines I belive

Frank Bullitt

OSI wrote: »

Apparently Renault have said they won't be supplying engines to anyone once their current contracts are up, leaving them with the options of either buying out Lotus or leaving the sport entirely.

Funnily enough they mentioned Red Bull's rampant criticism as a big factor, saying they got none of the praise when Red Bull were winning, and all of the blame now they're not.

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/formula1/34269127

He's not wrong.

Vic_08

Gintonious wrote: »

He's not wrong.

Sorry, but it is bull (not red).

Maybe if they wanted a higher profile marketing placement they shouldn't have sold Enstone in 2009/10. Renault have been yo-yoing in and out of the sport since the 70's, hard to believe they don't know the score in regards to the level of exposure an engine manufacturer is likely to recieve and how to go about maximising their marketing potential.

Besides, who decided to push the Infiniti brand to the fore with Red Bull in 2013, rather than Renault or even Nissan brands? I cannot believe it was without the direct approval of Renault and Nissan CEO Ghosn. Presumably they could have had "Renault Red Bull Racing; 4 times world champions" in 2013 if they wanted rather than pushing a tiny niche brand that has gained little traction outside the US.

Going Strong

If rumours are to be believed, Renault want a sizeable "Historic Team" payment that allows them to maintain a steady midfield team buoyed by tied-in sponsors and pay drivers and not giving engines to anyone else. Not the attitude of a team that's in it to win it is it? If they don't buy Enstone then that team's a goner and I don't see anyone else taking over. So who's next? Sauber and Force India are both in financial trouble and already being bailed out by getting this year's end of season payments in advance.

Vic_08

Going Strong wrote: »

If rumours are to be believed, Renault want a sizeable "Historic Team" payment that allows them to maintain a steady midfield team buoyed by tied-in sponsors and pay drivers and not giving engines to anyone else. Not the attitude of a team that's in it to win it is it?

I don't know, Lotus with Merc engines = midfield team, switch back to Renault engines on current form and they'd be a back marker like in 2014. I can't see a works Renault team fighting Manor Mercedes for the wooden spoon doing anything for Renaults marketing aspirations.

smellslikeshoes

Going Strong wrote: »

If rumours are to be believed, Renault want a sizeable "Historic Team" payment that allows them to maintain a steady midfield team buoyed by tied-in sponsors and pay drivers and not giving engines to anyone else. Not the attitude of a team that's in it to win it is it? If they don't buy Enstone then that team's a goner and I don't see anyone else taking over. So who's next? Sauber and Force India are both in financial trouble and already being bailed out by getting this year's end of season payments in advance.

Enstone isn't flush with cash or anything but they aren't going to go away if Renault don't buy. Their current problems are being caused by not wanting to invoice Pdvsa for next year while the Renault negotiations are ongoing. It's not a small sum they are waiting on either, Maldonado brings in 50+ million.

El_Duderino 09

Vic_08 wrote:

I don't know, Lotus with Merc engines = midfield team, switch back to Renault engines on current form and they'd be a back marker like in 2014. I can't see a works Renault team fighting Manor Mercedes for the wooden spoon doing anything for Renaults marketing aspirations.

I think you're looking at it from a sports fan's eyes rather than a business person's. F1 is the biggest motor racing show in the world. Being in F1 is huge publicity. Being at the front is much better than being at the back just as being at the back is much better than not being there at all.

They have to make the numbers work out. The Renault/Nissan/Infinity company chose to use the infinity brand on the Red Bull. If you were the CEO of Renault you would be upset about the branding but if you were CEO of the whole group, then you probably wouldn't care which brand is getting coverage and right now they have 2 of the 3 brands involved in F1.

It's possible that they made a mistake but if they really did, then they probably wouldn't be considering buying a team and haggling for historical payments which presumably would only be possible if they intend are sticking around