Formula 1 2015: General Discussion Thread

Myrddin

F1 fanatic wrote: »

Bet it sounds great too

I'd say it does. What's in the back of it?

Jordan 199

Myrddin wrote: »

I'd say it does. What's in the back of it?

A BRM V12.

F1 fanatic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCyuRwH5JMM

Great sound alright. Here's some onboard footage

Thidp

The onboards from that time are amazing.

It is incredible how near the driver was from the front of the car. Today we have 2.5km between the driver and the front wing...

HighLine

Someone give this man a job quickly.

Former Renault F1 technical director Francois Castaing, the man who first brought turbo engines in to the sport in 1979 has send a document to Bernie and Jean Todt outlining his concerns about the current crisis in F1.

Formula 1 should not go bankrupt.

In recent months, Formula 1 stakeholders and teams have talked publicly about the serious problems the sport faces. They have revealed their lack of progress in their attempts to bring the programme back on track. The two ideas expressed here could help their efforts.

1: Power units

F1 stakeholders and the current power unit suppliers must accept that, while well intentioned, the 2014 move to a complex hybrid turbocharged V6 has had unforeseen negative consequences.

Paying fans have been complaining about the exhaust noise of the V6, saying that it is both reduced in level and quality. This is actually an unsolvable issue because, by design, in the hybrid V6 the maximum of exhaust gas energy is captured into electricity at the expense of the noise. The problem is compounded by the V6's low maximum RPM imposed by the fuel metering regulations.

Managing fuel consumption has visibly killed all-out racing to the flag: another complaint from the paying spectators.

Hybrid technology has been in development for passenger car production as far back as the 1990's, especially at Toyota, GM, Chrysler, Daimler/Mercedes, BMW and VAG. Only Mercedes, among the initial three power unit suppliers for F1, has been intensively developing hybrid technologies in anticipation of worldwide CO2 regulations. In 2012, Mercedes was in the position to assign hundreds of hybrid technology engineers to help design the new F1 power unit, while Renault Nissan provided none and FIAT very few.

Hence the superiority of Mercedes since the first day of practice in 2014, superiority likely to last until major changes if any are put in place in 2017. The power units' performance disparity, cause of the "processional Grands Prix" that the paying public is not happy about, is mostly due to the hybrid systems' efficiency and integration, rather than the difference in power output of the V6s themselves.

Privately and publicly chastised by their own teams for the hopeless lack of competitiveness of their power units, Renault and Honda might decide to give up and leave Formula 1. Why in the world would any other car manufacturer want to jump in to replace them?

Not only are the spectators disappointed, but the teams are disappointed too. Despite all the talk about containing costs through inscrutable regulations imposed on the power unit suppliers, annual budgets have sky-rocketed. With Honda involved now, it is probable that the F1 annual power units' overall expense budget will reach 1.5 billion Euros this year.

Last but not least, the new V6 hybrid regulations were about displaying "greenness." Saving 50 kilos of fuel per car at each Grand Prix was the advertised grand benefit for the planet. Let's candidly put this in a broader context, as transporting the show around the world burns fuel too:

1. Including the practice sessions over 20 Grand Prix, the 22 hybrid power units could save up to 6 tons of fuel per year.

2. The logistics for the 12 overseas events require about 1,200 flight hours of Boeing 747 cargo jet and 1,500 flight hours of Boeing 777 (or equivalent) for the personnel. In total, these flights will burn about 22,000 tons of fuel this year.

3. For Europe's 7 events, 200 tractor-trailers will burn 1,770 tons of fuel to transport the same material. Regular airlines will fly 1,500 Formula 1 personnel burning another 525 tons of fuel.

Without counting the fuel used by a large number of business jets shuttling stakeholders and VIPs to the 20 events, Formula 1 will burn at least 24,000 tons of fuel this season but, thank God, the new engine regulations will save 6 tons!

In view of these facts, Formula 1 and probably most car manufacturers and sponsors involved should agree to bring back the racing engines that fans have been clamouring for as soon as possible, while seeking more effective ways to show environmental responsibility.

2: Telemetry

From the drivers themselves to the fans, many question why more and more responsibilities are taken away from the athlete behind the steering wheel. This situation is the result of the never-ending invasion of telemetry sensors in the cars. The sensors, hundreds of them for top teams, monitor absolutely everything in each subsystem of the car.

The data collected in real time in the pit allow the team to enhance their driver's performance on the track. But at a growing cost: as an example, for the power units alone the manufacturers bring to each Grand Prix at least 10 engineers per car, each with a screen or two, to monitor a specific set of parameters when the car is running.

Hundreds of engineers are travelling to each event to watch those screens. While probably of great interest for engineers, it is not clear how this costly activity helps bring better racing to the paying spectators' eyes, even when good TV broadcasters attempt to display the telemetry to at-home viewers. It was not like that in the days when Formula 1 was very competitive with epic races from Senna, Prost and the like.

Telemetry in F1 costs a lot of money in capital, head count and transport. It should be banned completely starting with the 2017 season with the exception of a half dozen sensors warning of developing brake failure.

This drastic but simple change will permit talented drivers to shine and bring more uncertainty to every race as demanded by TV advertising sponsors and the paying public.

F1 as a whole not only will save money after paying all their drivers fairly, but it should take credit for seriously reducing its carbon footprint. If 500 engineers/technicians and their equipment were no longer needed at the events, the savings in fuel burned could be as high as 6,000 to 7,000 tons per year.

Suggestions:

Formula 1's next engine could be a 1,000 HP 2.8 litre turbocharged V8, with capped boost pressure, rev limited at 17,000 RPM and burning exclusively one brand of 110 octane gasoline.

Alternatively the famous 3.5 litre V10 from the mid-2000s period could and should be brought back to life.

Either alternative would cost the manufacturers and the teams only a fraction of what the current hybrid V6 costs.

The original KERS system should be reinstated.

Last, burning an ethanol based racing fuel should be considered: its usage does not require much invention. Ethanol would make the option of refuelling during races affordable for the teams and thus possible. And it is renewable fuel!

Francois Castaing
Renault Sport Technical Director 1975-1979

Note: Estimations of fuel burn
Assumed all air transports of freight and passengers are from London and back.
Boeing 747 Cargo burns 10 tons of fuel per hour. Assumed 4 planes needed per GP but more might be in fact needed.
Boeing 777 burns 7 tons of fuel per hour. Assumed 5 planes needed for oversea GP.
Airbus A320 burns 2,5 tons per hours.
Tractor-trailer: 8 miles per gallon.

mickdw

I think f1 should have moved more slowly to the hybrid tech.
We had kers. I think a useful step would have been to keep kers but open it up in terms of amount of usage - basically use as much kers as you could harvest. The kers we had was not really a tech challenge as they all managed to easily harvest the allowable amount of energy per lap. This would have been a small step towards the efficiencies they are all trying to achieve right now.

Myrddin

LIGHTNING wrote: »

That's a great email from Francois Castaing but it wont go anywhere. That said the old V10's could be brought back to life with little effort. We can only hope

Agreed. A lot of what he's saying makes sense, but some of it is dreamland territory. It seems he's looking at the past through rose tinted glasses a little too, the hybrid tech is not the reason for processional racing as he suggests, you just have to look at times before its inception to see that directly.

I love the idea of a 2.8 V8 with KERS though....if only indeed

Frank Bullitt

Toto Wolff saying that Merc like the idea of 3 car teams. This looks like mind games to me with RB.

Cookie_Monster

Gintonious wrote: »

Toto Wolff saying that Merc like the idea of 3 car teams. This looks like mind games to me with RB.

but of course merc would. 8+ podiums a year where all three are Merc drivers, would certainly look good for the company!

AMKC

I see Alonso is getting an engine upgrade for the race this weekend from Honda but Button will not because they can not make enough parts in time and his current engine has done less miles than Alonso,s current one.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/121198

Uno my Uno.

AMKC wrote: »

I see Alonso is getting an engine upgrade for the race this weekend from Honda but Button will not because they can not make enough parts in time and his current engine has done less miles than Alonso,s current one.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/121198

The Shambles at McLaren Honda continues, I really hope they improve dramatically next season. Aside from the fact that the sport is poorer for Alonso and Button being so out of contention its painful to watch.

AMKC

Uno my Uno. wrote: »

The Shambles at McLaren Honda continues, I really hope they improve dramatically next season. Aside from the fact that the sport is poorer for Alonso and Button being so out of contention its painful to watch.

I do think that Honda will make big improvements to there Hyprid engine for next season and it will be a much better year for Mclaren-Honda. But if they will be in the midfield or up front can,t really say. Would love to see both Alonso and Button both racing up front again next season.

PopePalpatine

What's exactly wrong with the Honda PU? I remember reading about them having to redesign their turbo for the new regulations in 2016, and it read like it would be great for them.

flazio

Thing is though, Mercedes Benz aren't going to just stand still and wait for everyone to catch up. They'll be working hard to keep advantage.

El_Duderino 09

PopePalpatine wrote:

What's exactly wrong with the Honda PU? I remember reading about them having to redesign their turbo for the new regulations in 2016, and it read like it would be great for them.

It's to do with the MGU-K and MGU-H. According to a report I read recently, the Honda engine is about the same as the Result with maybe 10 bhp in the difference. It's the other 2 power sources that are severely lacking. MGU-K + MGU-H = about 180hp. They can't harvest enough energy so they cut out half way down the straight leaving the McLaren -180hp to the Mercedes and -180hp to the Ferrari.

That's where Alonso's radio comment came from during the Japanese GP. He was passed on either side by 2 drivers who were themselves battling for position.

TheDoctor

Ferrari won't give Red Bull engines next year. Looks like they are going to leave the sport at the end of the season

Mitch Connor

While i'm fed up with the moaning of Red Bull - I do think it is a massive shame to lose them. A championship winning team, with big funds and a big draw, being lost to the sport can only be seen in a negative light.

It also makes you me question the viability of the sport if such a competitor cannot obtain a competitive engine unit for the car, from either of the two manufacturers seemingly capable of making one.

Should the engine distribution be handled differently? I can totally understand why Ferrari and Merc would be unwilling to lose the title to a rival powered by their own engine - but it will still be a massive loss to the sport. Would assume Toro Rosso will be gone too - so the young driver development program will be impacted sorely as well.

Will be interesting to see where the Red Bull and Torro Rosso drivers end up. Hass? Lotus? Talk of either red bull guy to Ferrari, but they have their line up sorted for next year. Can't see Merc wanting to shift Hamilton (and where would he go) nor would they drop their German driver, imo.

mickdw

I will believe it when I see it.
Bernie will put something together.
A 2016 engine in customer spec that's not quite as competitive as they would like.

flazio

Dietrich Mateschitz and Christian Horner spent pretty much all of FP1 in Bernie's office so something is going to happen soon we hope.

Harika

‪#‎F1‬ Ferrari are believed to have decided against supplying Red Bull with engines for 2016.
Martin Brundle: "Red Bull don't have an engine - I think it's absolutely clear that Ferrari won't and can't supply them with 2016 engines, Their only option is to walk away or rebuild bridges with Renault,"
Red Bull team boss Christian Horner: "There are a lot of negotiations going on, Nothing is fixed."
Ted Kravitz : "Ferrari boss Maurizio Arrivabene was in deep, deep conversation with Bernie Ecclestone, who has been trying behind the scenes to sort this almighty mess out because he doesn't want Red Bull to go, He understands that Mateschitz has had enough and wants to go. We asked Bernie and he said 'there is only so much I can do - I don't make engines. If I could I would give some to Red Bull'."

From Sky :eek:
Edit: Sorry didn't read that TheDoctor already put this up.

HighLine

A nice response from Manor to Alonso's comment

https://twitter.com/RachelBrookesTV/status/652381675469545472

https://twitter.com/ManorF1Team/status/652384657015730176

Mike Litoris

Wow and Lol.

http://beta.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/121233/red-bull-back-in-talks-with-renault

Going Strong

Mike Litoris wrote: »

Wow and Lol.

http://beta.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/121233/red-bull-back-in-talks-with-renault

Here's Christian Horner earlier.

Mike Litoris

Bahaha.

....saw this post in reply to the story on the autosport forums

Mike Litoris

In the fallout of all this I'd love to see Newey go back to McLaren, Honda get their shít together for next year and Ferrari improve to give us an epic 3 team battle next year.

If RB go will TR go? With the current state of affairs I can't see anyone chomping at the bit to buy into an F1 team. Whatever happens I just hope Danny Ric lands a drive.

Harika

Bernie said something like that he has a leverage if Renault wants the historical F1 bonus, then they might reconsider providing RedBull with engines. What I think might be from a PR perspective even a good thing for Renault, it might just become a bit more expensive for RedBull as it seems they also cancelled Total and Infiniti Sponsorship contracts. Renault might even ask for a change in leadership at RedBull.
Edit: Going now for RedBull would be far too expensive, they would have to pay Bernie 500 Million Euro to not compete next year, so it would be cheaper for them to take part and get the PR. Also the two teams need to be financed still, except they wanna fire 1000 people, that did nothing wrong.

Frank Bullitt

I am guessing then that the RB sponsorship with Total and Infinity is also gone as well?

Harika

Gintonious wrote: »

I am guessing then that the RB sponsorship with Total and Infinity is also gone as well?

Yes, the RedBull management totally ****ed up here. To spice this up Helmut Marko ****ed his hotel business in austria up himself and was bailed out by Mateschitz before. Very expensive friendship.:rolleyes:

AMKC

I think losing Red Bull in Formula 1 would be worse than them staying as they have 4 very good drivers that would be a big loss to the sport with at least two of them as potential future world champions. I think Renault should give them engines but sell them to them at twice the price it would have cost Red Bull. Red Bull should also say sorry to Renault in public about the things it said a bout them. It would still probably be cheaper for Red Bull to buy them of Renault than to leave the sport and it would be a big benefit to Renault as they would have more data to work with. I think Renault will have a better power unit for next year as well.

Frank Bullitt

This going back to Renault is maybe a sign that they aren't really serious about pulling out then.

PopePalpatine

I'd say Bernie will probably twist Renault's arm, likely by threatening to eliminate their "historic constructor" status.

Top Dog

Gotta admit, I'm getting pretty fed up with all the political crap going on behind closed doors.

As if the ... erm ... "racing" ... itself wasn't torture enough, we have to deal with this rubbish too?

Almost ready to close the door with my interest in F1 at this stage (and thats from someone who was able to watch through the Schumacher & Vettel domination periods)

Frank Bullitt

Top Dog wrote: »

Gotta admit, I'm getting pretty fed up with all the political crap going on behind closed doors.

As if the ... erm ... "racing" ... itself wasn't torture enough, we have to deal with this rubbish too?

Almost ready to close the door with my interest in F1 at this stage (and thats from someone who was able to watch through the Schumacher & Vettel domination periods)

Your right there pal. F1 is turning into a real farce these days.

cadaliac

Top Dog wrote: »

Gotta admit, I'm getting pretty fed up with all the political crap going on behind closed doors.

As if the ... erm ... "racing" ... itself wasn't torture enough, we have to deal with this rubbish too?

Almost ready to close the door with my interest in F1 at this stage (and thats from someone who was able to watch through the Schumacher & Vettel domination periods)

This...^^^

I'm afraid I'm in he same boat. I loved the Schumacher era, detested Vettel when he was winning at RB and now find myself selecting races on Sky+ to watch, as against making sure I was at home for every race.
My interest has dropped off a cliff in the last two years. Noise and politics has to answer for a lot.

HighLine

Just watched a clip about the Mexico track on Sky... that stadium section looks like it will be some atmosphere.... IF they can fill the seats!!

Here is a animation of the track

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaXIjhYV5YU

Sterling Archer

Ammm.. Ya..

aphex™

So it's official Mercedes have won the 2015 constructors' championship due to Raikkonen's penalty at Russian GP.
https://twitter.com/MercedesBenz/status/653230747680174080

HighLine

An onboard clip of the Mexican Grand Prix track.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-oh6aqLdaM

Uno my Uno.

Love the multiple apexs in the Hairpin complex!

Ghost Train

Only skipped through it but I like the end of the lap, close to and between the grandstands

TheChrisD

Still think the full Peraltada would make it 10x better.

Cookie_Monster

needs more colour too. Grass or just painted tarmac.

wonder how dusty it will remain by the time they get there.

Jordan 199

I'm looking forward to the Mexican Grand Prix this year. It will be the first time I will be watching the Mexican race live.

Actually quite like how that looks but the "finishing touches" will probably leave it looking like any other track.

Frank Bullitt

K-Mag has been let go by McLaren, they won't be renewing his contract.

mickdw

Gintonious wrote: »

K-Mag has been let go by McLaren, they won't be renewing his contract.

Tough that.
How far did he get on his last gp - half way around formation lap.

Vic_08

Gintonious wrote: »

K-Mag has been let go by McLaren, they won't be renewing his contract.

Hope he finds his way into another F1 seat, his 2014 performance was easily better than a number of current F1 pilots. It was pretty obvious he was out of favour at McRon's, all the talk this year has been about Vandoorne not Magnussen.

Charlie-Bravo

Yes and Palmer has to sit out the year from GP2 because he won it last year. Even though Palmer is Lotus' test driver, there are three names in the hat for the seat beside Maldonado.

Ghost Train

mickdw wrote: »

Tough that.
How far did he get on his last gp - half way around formation lap.

Finished 11th in his last GP... finished 2nd in his his first ever F1 race
One of the best F1 debuts ever (Jacques Villeneuve also came 2nd in first race, Giancarlo Baghetti won debut race back in 1961)
Probably does deserve bit more time in an f1 car if a team wants to take chance with him

Frank Bullitt

I hope a team has him on their radar, possibly Renault/Lotus?