Charlie (RTE1 Charlie Haughey Drama)

LionelNashe

So who do you reckon was backing Doherty and "Jimmy" in bringing down Haughey? Who pulled the trigger? Des Traynor advised Jimmy to make other friends. I thought the implication was that he may have joined Bertie's Drumcondra Mafia (Charlie even makes a joke about the Mafia when Jimmy turns up, which could have been a hint from the writers). But then Bertie turns down Charlie's support, which doesn't make sense if it was Bertie behind it. He couldn't have known that there would be another chance in the future.

26000 Elephants

But what was it in the arms trial folder that Jimmy the Pikey gave to him would precipitate his downfall? I mean that was all done and dusted by 1970. Were they suggesting that there was something else in it that would have derailed the 'path to peace'?

But overall a great piece of work.

Iranoutofideas

Meangadh wrote: »

I have no idea why anyone would want to get into politics. What a rotten business.

CountyHurler

26000 Elephants wrote: »

But what was it in the arms trial folder that Jimmy the Pikey gave to him would precipitate his downfall? I mean that was all done and dusted by 1970. .

Actually, can somebody help me out with that... Did somebody really threaten to release information about the arms trial, and was blackmailing him about this..... And if so, who was it??

happysunnydays

Very enjoyable and entertaining series.Haughey seemed like an interesting character. I think RTe got it right with a mini-series. A longer full on series would have been too bloated and drawn out. This format got straight to the point.

Gavlor

Meangadh wrote: »

I have no idea why anyone would want to get into politics. What a rotten business.

Yeah, god knows why they do it

http://m.mywage.org/ireland/home/salary/celebrity-pay-1/politician-pay

Iranoutofideas

Jesus take a gander at this

http://www.abbevillehouse.ie/

FloatingVoter

Iranoutofideas wrote: »

Jesus take a gander at this

http://www.abbevillehouse.ie/

Sure its a nice little place to hang your hat. Last I heard it had fallen into disrepair and is now owned by a Japanese led consortium. The Haughey family sold it at the height of the boom around 2007 for about €40m...the consortium picked up a sizable piece of the estate for about €7m in saner recent times.

Meangadh

Well obviously there's that side to it, so I suppose saying I've *no* idea isn't quite accurate- but as I said, what a rotten business.

FloatingVoter

Gavlor wrote: »

Yeah, god knows why they do it

http://m.mywage.org/ireland/home/salary/celebrity-pay-1/politician-pay

If CJH was here now reading that, he'd have Mara looking into why he wasn't asked to be in One Direction.

mzungu

Overall that was pretty darn good. Not without its flaws but nevertheless, it was worth the watch. I think Gillen did a fine job.

It was good to see Brian Lenihan being portrayed a bit more realistically in this episode. In early episodes he was a bit of a caricature.

The surreal sequences with his mother and the sandcastles were well executed.

I thought TVL was a great PJ Mara, for me he stole the show, Ice cool.

CountyHurler wrote: »

The major faults I would have..
* That random TD, who nobody knows, who probably never existed, and just got promoted!
* Some of the Ministers were like cartoon versions of their counterparts.
* The scene with Des O'Malley and the sword REALLY let the show down, and brought the credibility of the entire drama under question.
* That traveller chap from Love/Hate.. The kindest way I can put it is he was miscast.
* Maureen not shown once, the Dail not shown once, Maggie not shown once... they took some big shortcuts to avoid expense...

Agree 100% with these, especially the sword part. Needless really, I have no idea why that was left in.

Strazdas

CountyHurler wrote: »

I thought that initially.. The first episode I thought was really bad.. but once you get used to him as Haughey, you can then just watch the drama progress instead of analyzing Gillen's every gesture to find fault.... In reality, nobody was gonna be able to capture Haughey's look and mannerisms much better than Gillen did..

The major faults I would have..
* That random TD, who nobody knows, who probably never existed, and just got promoted!
* Some of the Ministers were like cartoon versions of their counterparts.
* The scene with Des O'Malley and the sword REALLY let the show down, and brought the credibility of the entire drama under question.
* That traveller chap from Love/Hate.. The kindest way I can put it is he was miscast.
* Maureen not shown once, the Dail not shown once, Maggie not shown once... they took some big shortcuts to avoid expense...

Des O'Malley himself has spoken up in favour of the show though and fully understands why they needed to take artistic licence.

Strazdas

Tony EH wrote: »

I don't know too much about Terry Keane, other than what I've read and seen on the Late Late, but if she was anything like she's portrayed on this program, she has to have been one of the most appalling, obnoxious cünts ever to have walked the earth.

Insert sick smilie here --->

I don't think I could stand spending 5 minutes in that woman's company.

Certainly in the famous Late Late Show interview she did with Gay Byrne on The Late Late Show, she came across as a pompous and insufferable snob and very close to the depiction we saw here.

LionelNashe

Tony EH wrote: »

I don't know too much about Terry Keane, other than what I've read and seen on the Late Late, but if she was anything like she's portrayed on this program, she has to have been one of the most appalling, obnoxious cünts ever to have walked the earth.

Insert sick smilie here --->

I don't think I could stand spending 5 minutes in that woman's company.

I don't get that at all. I don't think she was portrayed as appalling, obnoxious etc. Not trying to start an argument or anything, I just don't see it.

Declan A Walsh

LionelNashe wrote: »

So who do you reckon was backing Doherty and "Jimmy" in bringing down Haughey? Who pulled the trigger? Des Traynor advised Jimmy to make other friends. I thought the implication was that he may have joined Bertie's Drumcondra Mafia (Charlie even makes a joke about the Mafia when Jimmy turns up, which could have been a hint from the writers). But then Bertie turns down Charlie's support, which doesn't make sense if it was Bertie behind it. He couldn't have known that there would be another chance in the future.

I was wondering too about who pulled the trigger. I had always assumed that Albert was behind O'Doherty - apparently not. So who? I was surprised at the idea that it was a dossier on the Arms Trial that forced his resignation. Any ideas about that?

FalconGirl

When you look at the names in that FF Govt, they really were/are a dispicable self serving shower.

P Flynn. C. Haughey, R.Burke, L.Lawlor, B.Ahern just a few to name. We need to always watch our politicians and they must always be held accountable by the electorate that they serve. That is what disheartens me with the current FG appointments and cronyism. Nothing has been learned it seems.


Just watch P.Flynns video when he was on the Late Late. The arrogance has to be seen to be believed.

Harry Angstrom

Strazdas wrote: »

Des O'Malley himself has spoken up in favour of the show though and fully understands why they needed to take artistic licence.

I'm not surprised that Dessie has spoken in favour of the series, considering that he comes out of it looking whiter than white, and he'll probably be able to flog a few of his autobiographical books off the back of it.

It still doesn't explain why he'd want to go into coalition with a man he utterly despised though, apart from the hackneyed old "I wanted to keep an eye on him" line.

Strazdas

Harry Angstrom wrote: »

I'm not surprised that Dessie has spoken in favour of the series, considering that he comes out of it looking whiter than white, and he'll probably be able to flog a few of his autobiographical books off the back of it.

It still doesn't explain why he'd want to go into coalition with a man he utterly despised though, apart from the hackneyed old "I wanted to keep an eye on him" line.

Gene Kerrigan did point out in the Sindo today that the Haughey - O'Malley coalition worked really well, so maybe their relationship was more complex and nuanced than was shown here.

Harry Angstrom

Strazdas wrote: »

Gene Kerrigan did point out in the Sindo today that the Haughey - O'Malley coalition worked really well, so maybe their relationship was more complex and nuanced than was shown here.

Possibly, but I still think Des O'Malley was a hypocrite. He set up a party as an antidote to Haughey and the corrupt Fianna Fáil culture of the time, but then jumped into government with them at the earliest opportunity.

brooke 2

Strazdas wrote: »

Des O'Malley himself has spoken up in favour of the show though and fully understands why they needed to take artistic licence.

Des O'Malley comes out of it very well. Don't think any of his family will be on
Sean O'Rourke tomorrow complaining about how he was portrayed!!

TVL was brilliant as PJ Mara. Some very witty lines in tonight's episode.

Really enjoyed all the programmes.

emanresu esrever

CountyHurler wrote: »

Charlie didnt actually build a sandcastle that morning only to come back and find out the waves had destroyed it... It was a metaphor...

:pac::pac::pac:

Did you really assume someone would not of identified what the concept of the sandcastle was, or were you just making a smart comment for a few cheap likes!!!

anyway, seems like there is a unanimous sentiment that this was a terribly constructed metaphor/analogy. It was cheap and fitted terribly with the sequence leading up to the credits. Its like they thought up the most obvious metaphor of an empire crumbling and then sought how best to throw it in. Oh, we will have Charlie walk down the hallway of his mansion, 3 km inland from the coast and open the back door to a mysterious flashy imagery of a metaphorical beach! There had been no silly metaphorical stuff up until then and whilst the show deserved a memorable ending this "almost dream sequence" didn't fit in with the show! This isn't LOST, Twin Peaks or any other David Lynch production!

I think a sequence on the beach wouldn't of been such a bad idea, perhaps cutting to the beach as his car drove past it on his journey back to Abbeyfield with his final speech : "I have done the state some service, they know it, no more of that." overheard in the background before the tide crumbling the sand castle. It would of still been an easy, cheap metaphor but I just think the opening the door at the end to reveal this metaphorical beach was just bizarre, lazy and taccy.

emanresu esrever

I really think it could of been sustained for longer than 3 episodes though, albeit they wee extended t an hour and a half. There is so much material and characters to sustain twice as many episodes. It felt very rushed in parts and the obsession with Terry Keane was a thumbs down from me. Take for example a biopic like Lincoln from 2013 and the manner in which it concentrated on one event in his tenure as president to build a fantastic insight into his personality, relationships, struggles etc. Charlie relied heavily on chronologically brisking through all of the major events of his career in power. Although this worked to an extent of reminding you of his tenure, there was very little that most viewers (I am assuming) didn't learn of the character and the historical events occurring around him and most which we knew was forced home anyway. Saying that, it is difficult to exclude anything they did include (apart from maybe the excessive Terry Keane stuff ! and that brawl in the Dail) but if they had extended it to two series, it would have have been better.

MouseTail

I thought it was very good, think the random TD was based on Noel Davern,

BuilderPlumber

Declan A Walsh wrote: »

I was wondering too about who pulled the trigger. I had always assumed that Albert was behind O'Doherty - apparently not. So who? I was surprised at the idea that it was a dossier on the Arms Trial that forced his resignation. Any ideas about that?

Bertie could have been involved. That guy was always twofaced: pretends to be your friend and then stab you in the back. Even though Charlie backed him initially to succeed him, he would STILL do such a thing.

Clearly, Haughey did not leave power just over the O'Doherty tape. The arms trial dossier more than likely contained some truly damaging material that perhaps closely linked Haughey to the Provos. It has been said before 'No Charlie, no Provos'. At the time, most prominent Southern IRA men were supporters of Fianna Fail's more Republican wing.

DainBramage

Enjoyed the programme and thought Gillen was excellent as Haughey.
His portayal seems to have polarised punters on here, funny because that is exactly what he did in real life.

Other than Gillen thought the rest of the casting was poor. No sign of Padraig Flynn for example.

The great quote about Bertie being the most cunning, devious etc was mentioned but not developed and still we have no idea how Charlie
or anyone else came to this conclusion.

touts

I enjoyed it. I think the episodes got better as they went on (with the exception of the whole sandcastle thing and visions of his dead mother which were a bit unnecessary and silly). I think the portrayal of the TDs (Lenihan, Reynolds etc) was much better in the third episode. No one gets to that level in politics by being a complete gormless eegit.

It's a pity they didn't do a fourth episode (as the first episode) on his early days in politics (burning the british flag on top of Trinity, Marrying into the Lemass family, his fairly good performance as a minister and of course the Arms crisis). I think a fourth episode on that would have given a more rounded picture on his character without the need to use sandcastles and ghosts. Gillen and most of the cast would be just young enough to carry it off.

26000 Elephants

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

Bertie could have been involved. That guy was always twofaced: pretends to be your friend and then stab you in the back. Even though Charlie backed him initially to succeed him, he would STILL do such a thing.

Clearly, Haughey did not leave power just over the O'Doherty tape. The arms trial dossier more than likely contained some truly damaging material that perhaps closely linked Haughey to the Provos. It has been said before 'No Charlie, no Provos'. At the time, most prominent Southern IRA men were supporters of Fianna Fail's more Republican wing.

The dossier was from the department of Justice, and it contained evidence that had been deliberately hidden from the arms trial, without which they had to acquit Haughey. If you read Justin O'Brien's book, there was direct evidence to link Haughey to the payments, but the DOJ buried it. (There was also evidence that Lynch wasnt as innocent as he made out that O'Malley buried...) This is what Doc got his hands on the first day he was minister for Justice. After he decided to shaft Huaghey, he made it available to the Reynolds faction, and thats what they were probably 'dramatising' in that scene.

Kunkka

Really enjoyed this. Sign of a good bit of TV when you don't want it to end. Anyone think Reynolds came across quite badly from it? I'd say O' Malley is delighted with it though. The voice of reason.....

I thought the sand castle thing was simple but effective as it's exactly what happened to his political legacy really. Most of what he worked for to achieve his legacy just drifted away in the end when everything came to a head. What an absolute gangster though and glad he is remembered for the person he actually was in the end.

FringeBen

I think the idea of The Mother's Chair was a good one, but it could have been better handled cinematically. Likewise the sandcastle might have been carried off, perhaps it was a metaphor too far in the script that the director didn't love. The ending felt rushed; even the final focus pull on his face wasn't clean. The occasional ropiness in the Charlie series unfortunately mitigate against it becoming a classic, but the writing in places was of a high standard. It was punk cinema, thrown together at speed, trusting the actors. I liked the way it depicted the Keane relationship, and I think the O'Malley ‘sword scene’ was bang on the money, capturing the atmosphere perfectly.
You can see that the researchers relied heavily on the writings and interviews of Terry Keane, her phrases crop up with regularity. I think there was a conscious effort to foreground female characters; his mother, Maggie, his lover, in a very chauvinistic scene/era but it seems not to have been followed through. I needed to see Charlie’s wife some more. Maybe Charlie, in bed with Keane, should have P. Flynn on the radio making his infamous 'new-found interest in her family' Mary Robinson remarks. I am surprised more was not made of P. Flynn, great subject.
The complexities of the O'Malley/Haughey relationship might have been better served and perhaps more subtle writing might have nailed that. Ditto the relationship with Colley. Neither the Colley or the Albert personas were convincingly cast or acted; Doherty was good, Bertie was brilliant, I would like to have seen more of him. Lenihan; well the way he was depicted felt like a revelation, I wonder how close it is to the truth. That Lenihan thanks Haughey for funding his medical bill is played straight; without knowing the tribunal findings a viewer would not get the irony - the danger is of falling between the stools of too much exposition and of assuming too much audience prior knowledge. Truth is the problem with the Arms Trial file at the end; did something of this nature go on? The suggestion that the Reynold's faction had some more weaponry in its arsenal than came to light at the time is intriguing. There is an interesting symmetry between Haughey using the Beef Tribunal against Reynolds and the denouement of the story. It may not have exactly happened as depicted but methinks even now parts of the story remain murky.
I went back and looked at old footage of Haughey after watching the programme. He had a shiny kind of fame in his face. His trick, when asked difficult questions of going into a stately, procedural mode at extreme variance with his more blunt private style might have been made more of. He was an actor. The actual actor did a reasonable job overall, I bought into him after the first show. I think the main problem with the programme was establishing and maintaining a consistent 'voice' or style, the strength of it was to handle the subject matter in a frank and unsentimental fashion.

jezzer

anyone know who was behind the final heave against haughey? obviously it wasnt albert, so in reality albert became taoiseach by default, its strange that bertie didnt grab power when he had the chance, perhaps he knew albert wouldnt last and was prepared to play the long game?