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Vaccines and autism

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  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,419 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    sari wrote: »
    It's the exact same thing judgement is judgement. She is being labelled as irresponsible and those who choose not too are also being labelled irresponsible, that will feel the same and hurt in the same way.
    Everyone is entitled to have their own opinions be they positive or negative, everyone is also entitled to voice those opinions. I believe that we should just do it in a respectful way rather than nasty jibes and petty put downs.

    Actually, sometimes you're not "entitled to your own opinion" because you're opinion is completely wrong.

    Luckily the doctors who design vaccines don't rely on "opinion", they rely on peer reviewed research.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,419 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Tasden wrote: »
    In favour of vaccination, yes. Have you got credible evidence to show that vaccinations definitely do not, or will not in the future, have a negative impact on the child?

    I'm not asking you to reconsider your opinion.

    You're asking someone to prove a negative. This is impossible, it's like a religious person saying: You can't prove God doesn't exist, therefore I believe in God.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • Closed Accounts Posts: 301 ✭✭sari


    I never said it was my opinion. All I'm saying is there is no need for such hateful judgement. We are all educated, thoughtful people surly we can get our point across without being hateful.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,166 ✭✭✭Tasden


    Vaccines aren't 100% safe, if they were, they wouldn't be vaccines. :confused:

    Either you knew exactly what was meant by that comment and are being pedantic here, or else you misunderstood what was meant by 100% safe in the context it was being discussed and I should have phrased it better.

    100% safe in the context of risks of other issues arising from them at a later date or other concerns, I can't claim to know what exact fears people have, some people have mentioned them being used as mind control? I never heard that before so I'm sure there are others.

    Anyway I already said I wasn't gonna get any further into the whole debate because I made my point, if people can't see the point I was trying to make there is seriously nothing more I can do to explain what I'm saying. I never said not to judge their decision. Or to disagree with anybody on their stance re vaccinating kids. I was purely saying that people shouldn't assume they have all made their decision based on red tops and a "playboy bunny". I can't make that point any more clear.

    Parents are perfectly entitled to criticise and question the decision but to assume they haven't researched the topic or have made the decision flippantly based on ignorance is ridiculous. And to insult them based purely on that assumption is even worse. People seem to be unable to separate the two issues so I've decided to not to bother trying anymore as its fighting a losing battle trying to just make that one point, instead people are choosing to assume I'm arguing against them or playing devil's advocate or something.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,948 ✭✭✭Sligo1


    sari wrote: »
    That's great. I spent a lot of time myself reading and asking questions before I vaccianted.
    I think everyone is still missing the point that myslef and tasden were trying to make and that is not to be so judgemental, so derogatory when really you have no idea why someone has made the decision they have.
    I'm so sick of seeing people especially women be so judgmental nasty to each other be it vaccines, how they give birth, breastfeeding, parenting style the list is endless.
    Sligo1 that's great I think I remember you saying before you worked in healthcare, my suggestion would be you post reserach to show that vaccines are safe and effective rather than judgement without posting any of the articles or research. That is the only way to make sure everyone vaccinates, showing them the proof. Judgement without knowledge of why only serves to alienate people and make them more likely to stop listening to you and all the good info and research you can share

    I'm sorry sari but I find this post extremely condescending. I've worked long and hard enough and I do enough hours during the week with my patients then to spend even more time posting (even more than already do, lol) trying to educate people who can't be bothered to do it themselves. That is their job and their perogative. I've taught college Students in Dublin in the largesta university in Ireland. If you want me to post more "valid" articles or teach even more than I already do to educate these people, I refuse to.. Tell these people to come to my class. Let them do some of the work!!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 22,312 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    Anti-Vaccination.jpg


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    Tasden wrote: »
    I never said not to judge their decision. Or to disagree with anybody on their stance re vaccinating kids. I was purely saying that people shouldn't assume they have all made their decision based on red tops and a "playboy bunny". I can't make that point any more clear.

    Just out of curiosity, what would you consider to be pertinent and well informed arguments against vaccination and would you have examples of where somebody could find these on the internet?


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,898 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    sari wrote: »
    I never said it was my opinion. All I'm saying is there is no need for such hateful judgement. We are all educated, thoughtful people surly we can get our point across without being hateful.

    I'd hardly call use of the word "ignorant" hateful judgement.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,419 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    sari wrote: »
    I never said it was my opinion. All I'm saying is there is no need for such hateful judgement. We are all educated, thoughtful people surly we can get our point across without being hateful.

    I didn't mean to imply it was your opinion.

    Sometimes judgement is needed, anti vaccine parents are placing all of our children in danger. They're doing so for the most spurious reasons, whether they've watched a lot of YouTube or read too many homeopathy sites it doesn't matter to me. They're ignorant of the facts about vaccines.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,166 ✭✭✭Tasden


    Brian? wrote: »
    You're asking someone to prove a negative. This is impossible, it's like a religious person saying: You can't prove God doesn't exist, therefore I believe in God.

    I'm my own worst enemy because i said i wouldn't get into it but people are raising interesting points and its too tempting :o

    I wasn't actually asking him to prove a negative, it was me showing that it cant be done. That's their reasoning a lot of the time, that it hasn't been proven/refuted/ruled out and so they don't trust it. I don't believe in god because there is more evidence suggesting he doesn't exist than he does and it can't be proven. But theists/religious people may disagree. It doesn't mean they haven't done extensive research or that their belief is right or wrong. That isn't (once again!) what I was arguing. My point was purely that you cant assume they haven't researched the issue or that they made it based purely on what "a playboy bunny" said. Their findings and assessment of the research obviously led them to making a different decision. Never once said their decision was valid/justified/correct.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 301 ✭✭sari


    "Warped mentality, pig ironed ignorance, morns making snap judgment based on celelbrites, inconsiderate gob****e, God made child perfect, not worthy of respect"
    This is just some of the comments, you don't think they are hateful or coming from a hateful place, without even knowing any specific circumstances.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,419 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Tasden wrote: »
    I'm my own worst enemy because i said i wouldn't get into it but people are raising interesting points and its too tempting :o

    I wasn't actually asking him to prove a negative, it was me showing that it cant be done. That's their reasoning a lot of the time, that it hasn't been proven/refuted/ruled out and so they don't trust it. I don't believe in god because there is more evidence suggesting he doesn't exist than he does and it can't be proven. But theists/religious people may disagree. It doesn't mean they haven't done extensive research or that their belief is right or wrong. That isn't (once again!) what I was arguing. My point was purely that you cant assume they haven't researched the issue or that they made it based purely on what "a playboy bunny" said. Their findings and assessment of the research obviously led them to making a different decision. Never once said their decision was valid/justified/correct.

    Maybe they have done more reading than listening to Jenny McCarthy. But this does not excuse their ignorance.

    The research is all done for them, they just need to read it. I'm not asking them to perform a study, that's doing research. I'm asking that they read and understand the current research.

    It's a real pet hate of mine, googling stuff isn't research.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    Tasden wrote: »
    Either you knew exactly what was meant by that comment and are being pedantic here, or else you misunderstood what was meant by 100% safe in the context it was being discussed and I should have phrased it better.

    100% safe in the context of risks of other issues arising from them at a later date or other concerns, I can't claim to know what exact fears people have, some people have mentioned them being used as mind control? I never heard that before so I'm sure there are others.

    Anyway I already said I wasn't gonna get any further into the whole debate because I made my point, if people can't see the point I was trying to make there is seriously nothing more I can do to explain what I'm saying. I never said not to judge their decision. Or to disagree with anybody on their stance re vaccinating kids. I was purely saying that people shouldn't assume they have all made their decision based on red tops and a "playboy bunny". I can't make that point any more clear.

    Parents are perfectly entitled to criticise and question the decision but to assume they haven't researched the topic or have made the decision flippantly based on ignorance is ridiculous. And to insult them based purely on that assumption is even worse. People seem to be unable to separate the two issues so I've decided to not to bother trying anymore as its fighting a losing battle trying to just make that one point, instead people are choosing to assume I'm arguing against them or playing devil's advocate or something.

    I never said anything about red tops or playboy bunnies.

    I commented on your remark about requiring absolute safety. Which I stated is not what a vaccine is. It's risk management. It's about minimising the impact of an issue one can develop, by providing a measured and monitored exposure to it. Knowing what can possibly occur and be ready to assist.

    Anyone who tries to lump anything else into it, completely misses the point of vaccination.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,419 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    sari wrote: »
    "Warped mentality, pig ironed ignorance, morns making snap judgment based on celelbrites, inconsiderate gob****e, God made child perfect, not worthy of respect"
    This is just some of the comments, you don't think they are hateful or coming from a hateful place, without even knowing any specific circumstances.

    These were personal experiences as fad as I can see. I've met worse myself.

    No one is saying that parents who don't vaccinate their kids are any or all of the above. But they are ignorant, that can't be denied.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,898 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Brian? wrote: »
    It's a real pet hate of mine, googling stuff isn't research.

    It can be if you think critically about your source and what you're being told.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭fro9etb8j5qsl2


    SpaceTime wrote: »
    A friend of mine was recently 'taken apart' by a woman she knows from her school run because she vaccinated her kids!

    This woman actually told her that she was "an unfit mother" and that she was "endangering her children" (by vaccinating them) and then continued to rant at her about how she should "educate herself".

    Some people are just unbelievably interfering and full of dogmatic nonsense.

    That autism vaccine fake/flawed study did horrendous damage. It's very hard to counteract a scare story like that, particularly when it connects to something to do with kids and something with a very vauge set of symptoms like autism.

    For people born after the 1950s there's no memory of some of those childhood diseases that caused really serious suffering, disabilities and high levels of infant and childhood mortality in the past.

    Also vaccines are about as natural as medicine gets! You're basically just educating your immune system. They're not drugs, they're not artificial chemical agents. All they are is a bit of inert viral DNA that your immune system can test and learn to kill on sight!

    A woman I know who regularly quotes articles from www.naturalnews.com (it's as reliable a source as waterford whispers except it claims to be truthful and some people actually believe it) spent most of last year berating parents who vaccinate their children. Lo and behold, her 8 year old unvaccinated supposedly healthy as an ox daughter picked up whooping cough in September and spent almost a month in bed very sick. You would have thought that might have quietened the mother but no, I just logged on to Facebook this morning to find she has linked an article claiming that a whooping cough outbreak in a Massachusetts school affected only vaccinated students :rolleyes: :mad:

    For those of you saying we have no right to judge other peoples decisions, I would like to see how non judgemental ye would be if one of your children became extremely ill as a direct result of a non vaccinated child.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,375 ✭✭✭✭kunst nugget


    It can be if you think critically about your source and what you're being told.

    A lot of people don't use the internet like that and it ends up merely becoming an echo chamber for whatever they feel/fear/believe.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,898 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    I don't mean to be hateful but if parents think that they know better than immunologists and clinicians then ignorant is the most suitable label I can think of. I know people don't always fit such a profile if they've someone close who had an allergic reaction to a vaccine adjuvant or whatever but generally speaking people should have enough cop on to know that the research has been done within reasonable means.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 21,419 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    It can be if you think critically about your source and what you're being told.

    Correction to my earlier post. Googling stuff cannot be scientific research.

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,166 ✭✭✭Tasden


    Just out of curiosity, what would you consider to be pertinent and well informed arguments against vaccination and would you have examples of where somebody could find these on the internet?

    Well its been seven years since my child was vaccinated so I obviously haven't had a need to research it since, but all it takes is a google scholar search of "X vaccine and associated risks" and go from there, references and citations will lead you along wherever. Also, the info packs from the GP/PHN and any links or suggested readings on these. They are pro vaccine but they provide info on concerns parents may have and studies of such so its however they analyse that information I guess. The papers don't actually need to be explicitly "anti vaccine", the decision can be based on pro vaccine documents and a lack of articles addressing a specific concern they may have. I'm not arguing that that's right or wrong. I dunno how many times i have to say that. I'm just saying that people can't assume their only information on the topic is from red tops and playboy bunnies.

    When the swine flu vaccine became available the GP advised I vaccinate my child. This was 5 (?) years ago approx, not sure, so again I don't have links or anything. I researched it and couldn't find enough studies and information etc so decided against it because I wasn't satisfied that it was safe and I weighed up the risks and pros and cons at the time. Now it appears it may cause narcolepsy in some patients (again I don't actually have links etc so if I'm wrong please do actually correct me here or provide links!) but obviously at the time it wasn't being highlighted as a concern. I'm not saying I made the right decision, I'm just saying that's how I personally deemed that vaccine not worth the risk despite there being nothing at the time to suggest anything may develop as a result of the vaccine.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    I got the flu jab this year and I have to say it's great!
    Life's too short to be unnecessarily sick for 2 weeks.

    Also the formulations used in Ireland do not contain mercury. They're single doses.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    Tasden wrote: »
    ............ Now it appears it may cause narcolepsy in some patients (again I don't actually have links etc so if I'm wrong please do actually correct me here or provide links!) but obviously at the time it wasn't being highlighted as a concern. I'm not saying I made the right decision, I'm just saying that's how I personally deemed that vaccine not worth the risk despite there being nothing at the time to suggest anything may develop as a result of the vaccine.

    one of them :

    Narcolepsy incidence was 5.7 (95% confidence interval (CI): 3.4–8.9) per 100,000 children/adolescents vaccinated with Pandemrix

    0.4 (95% CI: 0.1–1.0) per 100,000 unvaccinated children/adolescents


    http://www.eurosurveillance.org/images/dynamic/EE/V19N17/art20789.pdf
    Finnish authorities this week announced that almost 80 children and teenagers there will be getting compensation for developing narcolepsy after receiving the vaccine.

    The Finnish Pharmaceutical Insurance Pool (FPIP) has so far received 111 claims for compensation, and of these, 78 have already been approved, while the rest are still being investigated.




    Map of vaccine-preventable outbreaks of disease :

    http://www.cfr.org/interactives/GH_Vaccine_Map/index.html

    .


  • Registered Users Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    When we are dealing with health issues like this, it comes down to health 'beliefs'. So depending on what your belief system is like, you may be a very intelligent person but still make strong connections between your thoughts, and how to feel safe.
    Its like superstition, some people are superstitious because of the way their belief system is structured.
    For example, someone gets a thought...'wheat is bad for you', then that influences their behaviour regardless of what the evidence suggests. Because their brain made a rule about it that doesn't feel safe to break. Or they don't feel safe about wheat. That rule may be stronger because someone 'important' said it, or it was said in a context that made it more believable or scary or whatever.
    Its like a religious belief, the physical evidence is not important, what is important is that I believe certain things, and those thoughts keep me 'safer' than if I allow myself to think it might not be true.
    Therefore there's no point arguing with the people who think vaccines are dangerous.
    One good point to argue in relation to autism, is that if the vaccines caused autism we would be seeing a massive spike in autism rates, which we are not seeing.
    What we are seeing is a massive spike in mumps and measles rates.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,449 ✭✭✭✭pwurple


    I do think the media are pandering to it also though. Fear sells newspapers... But the coverage of Ebola for example, my goodness. The terror. Alert plans were made by the govt. Ebola is far less dangerous than measles. It has a transmission rate of 2, vs measles rate of somewhere in the 40's. And in the same paper in the lifestyle section there is a piece about vaccine avoidance.

    What also needs to be taken into account possibly is the age of today's parents. I did not receive the MMR vaccine as a child because of Wakefield. I got measles, mumps and rubella in turn. Mumps only about 6 years ago. I hate being sick, so that only strengthened my resolve to have my children avoid it, but I know people who think the opposite. "I never got the vaccine and I'm fine so it is unnecessary".

    For sari: Where the judgement comes into it is around child endangerment. People will always feel strongly about anyone harming children, and use strong language. That is perfectly understandable.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,670 ✭✭✭GerardKeating


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Both my kids have autism, both vaccinated. I've lost count of the number of times I've been asked if I think their vaccinations were to blame. That doctor did a lot of damage and its going to take years to undo. :mad:

    Same with us, first two boys vaccinated and diagnosed ASD, so some pressure from family not to "give autism" to the youngest with the MMR.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,670 ✭✭✭GerardKeating


    All of the substantiated medically verified evidence I have come across is in favour of vaccination. Therefore it is my opinion that anyone who doesn't vaccinate their children and in effect, puts not only their health at risk but also the health of other innocent people at risk, are not only ignorant but also careless and irresponsible. I'm sorry if you don't like it but if you can show me any credible evidence in favour of not vaccinating then I would be happy to reconsider my opinion.

    There is a risk with everything in life, I gather 2 or 3 children die each year from side effects of vaccinations in europe, but thousands (maybe millions) die or are harmed by the disease that the vaccinations protect them from.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    pwurple wrote: »

    What also needs to be taken into account possibly is the age of today's parents. I did not receive the MMR vaccine as a child because of Wakefield. I got measles, mumps and rubella in turn. Mumps only about 6 years ago. I hate being sick, so that only strengthened my resolve to have my children avoid it, but I know people who think the opposite. "I never got the vaccine and I'm fine so it is unnecessary".
    This is exactly why we've chosen to give vaccines over and above the HSE scheduled ones. I saw a family member hospitalised for chicken pox because of health problems and there's no way I'll put my child through suffering an illness when a jab at two years of age can avoid it. Why anyone wants their children to be exposed to myraid illnesses is unfathomable to me. I cannot get my head around why you wouldn't vaccinate against every possible illness.
    I'm glad my parents listened to the best advice available at the time and protected us. Even when I was pregnant I made sure to get the whooping cough jab because it was recommended for the protection of my baby.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,423 ✭✭✭tinkerbell


    lazygal wrote: »
    This is exactly why we've chosen to give vaccines over and above the HSE scheduled ones. I saw a family member hospitalised for chicken pox because of health problems and there's no way I'll put my child through suffering an illness when a jab at two years of age can avoid it. Why anyone wants their children to be exposed to myraid illnesses is unfathomable to me. I cannot get my head around why you wouldn't vaccinate against every possible illness.
    I'm glad my parents listened to the best advice available at the time and protected us. Even when I was pregnant I made sure to get the whooping cough jab because it was recommended for the protection of my baby.

    The blasé attitude with chicken pox really bugs me - it can be a horrific illness for many so I don't understand why some parents treat it as a rite of passage for their kids instead of getting the vaccine. The vaccine can be given when the child is a year old so it can be completely avoidable.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    tinkerbell wrote: »
    The blasé attitude with chicken pox really bugs me - it can be a horrific illness for many so I don't understand why some parents treat it as a rite of passage for their kids instead of getting the vaccine. The vaccine can be given when the child is a year old so it can be completely avoidable.

    It should be on the schedule. I winced when I heard a colleague saying she wants her children to "get it over with" soon. In fairness some people can't afford it. But it was a total no brainer for us.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,423 ✭✭✭tinkerbell


    lazygal wrote: »
    It should be on the schedule. I winced when I heard a colleague saying she wants her children to "get it over with" soon. In fairness some people can't afford it. But it was a total no brainer for us.

    They are supposed to be introducing it in a number of countries but who knows when that'll happen. It's already in the US as the MMRV. It is definitely a total no brainer.


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