Vaccines and autism

Luke92

Cora Swift Sweatshop wrote: »

There was a 50% increase in childhood leukaemia between 1975 and 2005 and I'm sure that if Wakefield had chosen leukaemia over autism, there would be parents here now blaming the vaccines for their kids leukaemia. Fact of the matter is that Wakefield lied and there is no evidence that links childhood vaccinations with either autism or leukaemia.

Some people will even tell you there is a link between leukaemia and fluoride. Yes some cancers are preventable but not all.

Until we know how each cancer works and have an understanding of why, well then people will continue to get cancers. But we will also develop new and better ways of dealing with each cancer. In 50 years I can only imagine the advances in medicine. And look forward to them.

Keane2baMused

CaraMay wrote: »

I don't agree it's just DNA. Explain the explosion of autism....

Increased diagnosis and awareness as others have pointed out.Watch the ted talks lecture on Autism. Expert in the field discusses so far how some mutated genes have been found to cause autism in children. Before autism became known children on the spectrum were labelled as being odd balls and badly behaved and purely in need of discipline.

If vaccines cause autism why are boys almost 5 times more likely than girls to have autism? Why are some on the spectrum nonverbal and why are some high functioning and even savants? Explain why many children that have never been vaccinated are on the spectrum if vaccines are a cause? This all links to varying genetic mutations.

We know the likes of many of the greats in history such as Einstein and James Joyce were most likely on the spectrum. Do you think they got the MMR vaccine...?

Tasden

Keane2baMused wrote: »

Increased diagnosis and awareness as others have pointed out.Watch the ted talks lecture on Autism. Expert in the field discusses so far how some mutated genes have been found to cause autism in children. Before autism became known children on the spectrum were labelled as being odd balls and badly behaved and purely in need of discipline.

If vaccines cause autism why are boys almost 5 times more likely than girls to have autism? Why are some on the spectrum nonverbal and why are some high functioning and even savants? Explain why many children that have never been vaccinated are on the spectrum if vaccines are a cause? This all links to varying genetic mutations.

We know the likes of many of the greats in history such as Einstein and James Joyce were most likely on the spectrum. Do you think they got the MMR vaccine...?

Not arguing whether it causes it or not, but that argument is similar to saying "well he got lung cancer but never smoked so smoking doesn't cause lung cancer".
Something can exasperate or increase your chances of developing something (which may otherwise stay dormant or not exist at all) but not necessarily be the only cause if that makes sense.

Personally having a family member on the severe end of the spectrum i do think it's in your dna, however how you treat it and intervene can have a huge impact on the severity.

Keane2baMused

Tasden wrote: »

Not arguing whether it causes it or not, but that argument is similar to saying "well he got lung cancer but never smoked so smoking doesn't cause lung cancer".
Something can exasperate or increase your chances of developing something (which may otherwise stay dormant or not exist at all) but not necessarily be the only cause if that makes sense.

Personally having a family member on the severe end of the spectrum i do think it's in your dna, however how you treat it and intervene can have a huge impact on the severity.

Well that's a given. But its the sensationalism specifically surrounding vaccinations as being a cause of autism that I and many others have a huge issue with and rightly so. This story was invented by an absolute quack who fabricated much of the data. Ever since people have linked the two and for no credible reason.

There may of course be factors which increase the likelihood of developing a more severe form of autism, but we could just as easily say it's anything from drinking too much tea/coffee during pregnancy as we can with vaccinations. THAT is how poor and unrealiable the 'research' is.

Tasden

Keane2baMused wrote: »

Well that's a given. But its the sensationalism specifically surrounding vaccinations as being a cause of autism that I and many others have a huge issue with and rightly so. This story was invented by an absolute quack who fabricated much of the data. Ever since people have linked the two and for no credible reason.

There may of course be factors which increase the likelihood of developing a more severe form of autism, but we could just as easily say it's anything from drinking too much tea/coffee during pregnancy as we can with vaccinations. THAT is how poor and unrealiable the 'research' is.

Like i said I wasn't arguing that it is or isn't a factor, just that particular argument. Don't think anybody is saying autism wouldn't exist were it not for the vaccines.

chocksaway

Do vaccines cause autism?

Keane2baMused

Tasden wrote: »

Like i said I wasn't arguing that it is or isn't a factor, just that particular argument. Don't think anybody is saying autism wouldn't exist were it not for the vaccines.

Well given cancer is a disease and and autism is a pervasive developmental disorder it's a little ridiculous to compare and/ lump the two in the same category.

It's well known that smoking increases the risk of lung cancer. Its also well known that drink driving increases the risk of RTI's. We also know that the healthiest of individuals can get cancer and those who don't drink drive crash their cars.

My point about the rate of non vaccinated children having autism is in relation to those who claim autism is caused by vaccinating. It's not a moo point and for that argument, in my opinion it makes sense.

ectoraige

CaraMay wrote: »

I don't agree it's just DNA. Explain the explosion of autism....

I can't. It hasn't been explained yet. Some of it might be down to better reporting and awareness. The stereotypes of the 'village idiot' and the 'wise hermit' have been in existence throughout history. Redefinition of the disorders from just autism and aspergers to an entire spectrum means more people can receive a diagnosis that might not have matched the classical symptoms.

If there's a genetic element then with the greater intervention, treatment, and management, you can indeed expect an increase in cases. More people who in the past may have been ostracised by society are now fare better integrated and, as a result, be expected to have greater reproductive success. It has been reported that the some of the highest increases in autism in the United States has occured in the greater Silicon Valley area. Studies have indicated a higher rate of autism among mathematicians, and of the offspring of engineers. If there is a genetic element, and higher-functioning sufferers have a tendency towards maths/engineering, then it would seem more likely for these genetic traits to become more prevalent.

However, I'm not aware of sufficient research to present this as any more than a hypothesis, it's difficult to study, and enough hasn't been done. The reports about Silicon Valley, are, to the best of my knowledge - just that. I could be entirely wrong, and likely there's a multitude of causes - especially in cases of teen or adult diagnosis where other developmental factors can lead to similar symptoms that appear on the spectrum. California is also seen to have developed an excellent reporting system, the difference in reporting systems leads to different data.

What I can say though, is vaccination is not the cause. I can say this with confidence because it has been investigated to the death, and the lack of any link has been clearly shown. If one chooses to ignore all of these, and instead chooses to accept the Wakefield study that used falsified data, well, it's a free world, but please don't reproduce - the rest of society shouldn't have to deal with the unvaccinated children because one chooses blind faith over scientific investigation.

As to the big conspiracy about 'Big Pharma' - consider this. In recent years medication is being seen as less of a long-term solution for a lot of people. There is now a greater emphasis on developing coping strategies using techniques such as mindfulness. For many, the role of medication is to manage symptoms such as excessive anxiety, but when coping strategies are improved, the anxiety is also reduced, allowing a reduction or elimination of medication.

If Andrew Wakefield's study was the one truthful study, but 'Big Pharma' were capable of conducting huge fake studies and fake literature reviews to refute it, and suppress any further 'truth', then how come they haven't been able to discredit mindfulness by now?

Macker2001

I remember reading an article that people living closer to heavy traffic had higher percentages of autism. I think they were investigating the environmental factors contributing to autism.

Tasden

Keane2baMused wrote: »

Well given cancer is a disease and and autism is a pervasive developmental disorder it's a little ridiculous to compare and/ lump the two in the same category.

It's well known that smoking increases the risk of lung cancer. Its also well known that drink driving increases the risk of RTI's. We also know that the healthiest of individuals can get cancer and those who don't drink drive crash their cars.

My point about the rate of non vaccinated children having autism is in relation to those who claim autism is caused by vaccinating. It's not a moo point and for that argument, in my opinion it makes sense.

Seriously, i didn't think I'd have to clarify that I wasn't comparing autism to cancer. It was the flawed logic I was referring to, using another example to illustrate my point. If you think it still makes sense fair enough but imo it is pointless saying that here as nobody is arguing that autism wouldn't exist if vaccines weren't used. Same way nobody says RTI's would never have happened if alcohol didn't exist. It doesn't negate the fact alcohol can increase the chances of such. Two separate things.

Keane2baMused

Tasden wrote: »

Seriously, i didn't think I'd have to clarify that I wasn't comparing autism to cancer. It was the flawed logic I was referring to, using another example to illustrate my point. If you think it still makes sense fair enough but imo it is pointless saying that here as nobody is arguing that autism wouldn't exist if vaccines weren't used. Same way nobody says RTI's would never have happened if alcohol didn't exist. It doesn't negate the fact alcohol can increase the chances of such. Two separate things.

Which is exactly what I said if you read my post again.

Well no I'm smart enough to know you don't consider them the same but you made a comparison when one has absolutely nothing to do with the other.

YOUR idea of flawed logic simply because you don't agree with it. That doesn't make it fact.
My question(s) was posed o another poster given she asked how can I state it's DNA. Try spending less time picking posts apart and more time researching the topic and actually addressing that instead?

Tasden

Keane2baMused wrote: »

Which is exactly what I said if you read my post again.

Well no I'm smart enough to know you don't consider them the same but you made a comparison when one has absolutely nothing to do with the other.

YOUR idea of flawed logic simply because you don't agree with it. That doesn't make it fact.
My question(s) was posed o another poster given she asked how can I state it's DNA. Try spending less time picking posts apart and more time researching the topic and actually addressing that instead?

So what's your issue with me pointing that out?

I didn't make a comparison between the two, i made a comparison between two, imo, flawed arguments. Never said anything about the issues being related. It was an example to illustrate the flaw in that particular argument. I didn't actually disagree with what was being said generally just that the argument didn't actually back up what you were saying imo.

Picking posts apart? Its a discussion forum, if someone posts something it's up for discussion. Saying Einstein had autism and wasn't vaccinated as if it proves something has absolutely nothing to do with it either in that case. My issue was with the implication that just because autism wasn't caused by vaccines in some cases that it somehow proves or backs up the theory that it is never caused by them.

You seem to have some sort of issue with me having a differing opinion to you in relation to something that isn't all that important. I stated my opinion, if you don't agree that's fine, I'm not asking you to. I don't have anything else to address on the topic in the op, I'm not anti vaccine as I've already stated in the thread, i don't need to do any more research, I was just taking part in the discussion like everybody else on the thread...

Brian?

CaraMay wrote: »

But my point is that you cannot know that for sure. You are relying on information being provided by an industry who have no qualms about lying in order to make money.

You point is specious nonsense. Pure tripe.

No one is relying on information provided by the pharmaceutical industry, that would be as silly as believing the cigarette companies that cigarettes were safe. We're relying on the system of peer reviewed research, the same system that proved cigarettes were dangerous.

mohawk

CaraMay wrote: »

Do any of the pro vaccination people have kids on the spectrum? I do and if I had my time over again I would never get him vaccinated. The day I brought him in to get the last shots a voice in my head was screaming at me not to do it but I was a sheep. I don't trust pharmaceutical companies. There is something doing serious damage to our children. Our HSE psychologist told me that the new thinking on autism is that 1 in 20 boys are somewhere on the spectrum.

It's easy for for parents who don't have to deal with autism every minute of every day to want all kids to be vaccinated but guess what - you won the lottery and it didn't damage your child but I firmly believe we don't know the half of it and anyone who is adamant that vaccines don't cause autism is being very naive

Yes my 5 year old is on the spectrum. I would do it again if I had to.

If I look at both sides of the family there are a few quirky characters who were late talkers and struggle with social situations, who looking at them now you think those guys are on the spectrum.

If vaccines are a cause of autism would would expect autism rates amongst vaccinated children to be significantly greater then unvaccinated children. You would expect autism rates to drop in areas where vaccination rates fall. Don't read research papers from a pharma company There are plenty of research papers out there from academics in universities with zero affiliation with big Pharma.

From what I have read it looks like the X chromosome has a part to play in autism (unlikely to be whole story in my opinion). Which would explain why so many boys are affected compared to girls. But like all science this thinking could change as new research is performed.

RentDayBlues

While thIs explains the importance of vaccines in a comical way, I think it might help some people

https://medium.com/the-nib/vaccines-work-here-are-the-facts-5de3d0f9ffd0

Lucyfur

I love this one

DM addict

As part of my psychology degree, I did a module on autism. Whether or not there was any link with vaccines was (by far) the most discussed element of the course, which saddened me - but if I'm honest, I'm not that surprised. There's a lot of "no smoke without fire" kinda attitude to anti-vaxxers, and a serious lack of understanding of herd immunity.

I work with young children - at my workplace, children need to have up to date vaccination schedules or a doctor's letter explaining why they can't be vaccinated. For me, that's the best option. I don't see it as something that should be an acceptable personal choice.

CaraMay

An interesting article got those of you who so vehemently believe in the goodness of governments and scientists

http://healthimpactnews.com/2014/former-staff-lead-on-original-congressional-investigation-looking-at-vaccine-injuries-speaks-out-on-cdc-fraud/

Sure as long as it doesn't hit on you or your own sons, that's ok. Shame about the 5% of the male population is it raging through...

lazygal

CaraMay wrote: »

An interesting article got those of you who so vehemently believe in the goodness of governments and scientists

http://healthimpactnews.com/2014/former-staff-lead-on-original-congressional-investigation-looking-at-vaccine-injuries-speaks-out-on-cdc-fraud/

Sure as long as it doesn't hit on you or your own sons, that's ok. Shame about the 5% of the male population is it raging through...

More conspiracy theories about big pharma, seriously? I get that you want someone or something to blame, but vaccines aren't the target. I want to blame someone or something for the immune system issues that rage through my family (who were and were not vaccinated depending on the era) but more than likely its genetics and other factors, not vaccines, that cause the issue. All anti vaccine proponents do is put children at risk of preventable diseases. Suppose your child caught an illness that made him sterile, and could have been prevented? How would you feel?

chocksaway

yeah i wouldnt believe a whole lot from that site to be honest. Most of the writers have nothing to do with science. The managing editor has a degree in bible studies, the rest (with the exception of two) have degrees in literature and pyshology.


I'll take my scientific advice from people who know what they are talking about, not people who peddle stories about coconuts and "alternative healing methods" thanks.

Nice try though

lazygal

chocksaway wrote: »

yeah i wouldnt believe a whole lot from that site to be honest. Most of the writers have nothing to do with science. The managing editor has a degree in bible studies, the rest (with the exception of two) have degrees in literature and pyshology.


I'll take my scientific advice from people who know what they are talking about, not people who peddle stories about coconuts and "alternative healing methods" thanks.

Nice try though

I'd put cash money that essential oils are the cure for loads of things according to that site too.

CaraMay

Ridiculously patronizing respondes which I should have expected.

No room for discussion here evidently. I'm over and out.

cyning

CaraMay wrote: »

An interesting article got those of you who so vehemently believe in the goodness of governments and scientists

http://healthimpactnews.com/2014/former-staff-lead-on-original-congressional-investigation-looking-at-vaccine-injuries-speaks-out-on-cdc-fraud/

Sure as long as it doesn't hit on you or your own sons, that's ok. Shame about the 5% of the male population is it raging through...

I do appreciate why you blame vaccines: I really, really do. But I've spent months reading every thing I can about vaccines because of the reactions S gets. Nothing has changed my mind because the anti vaccine side just has no proof. I do believe scientists and governments are good though. Why on earth would anyone want an explosion in autism? It makes no sense.

lazygal

CaraMay wrote: »

Ridiculously patronizing respondes which I should have expected.

No room for discussion here evidently. I'm over and out.

If you can provide sources from reputable medical professionals who've peer reviewed research under their belts, feel free to come back in.

kunst nugget

CaraMay wrote: »

Ridiculously patronizing respondes which I should have expected.

No room for discussion here evidently. I'm over and out.

What discussion were you hoping for? I'm not trying to be patronizing but most people wouldn't consider healthimpactnews.com an impeccable news source and the only the only major news outlet to touch it was Time.com to say that it was completely unsubstantiated.

http://time.com/3208886/whistleblower-claims-cdc-covered-up-data-showing-vaccine-autism-link/

Here's a pretty measured response from a science blog to the whole CDC Whistleblower Saga.
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-cdc-whistleblower-saga-updates-backlash-and-i-hope-a-wrap-up/

Brian?

CaraMay wrote: »

An interesting article got those of you who so vehemently believe in the goodness of governments and scientists

http://healthimpactnews.com/2014/former-staff-lead-on-original-congressional-investigation-looking-at-vaccine-injuries-speaks-out-on-cdc-fraud/

Sure as long as it doesn't hit on you or your own sons, that's ok. Shame about the 5% of the male population is it raging through...

That complete nonsense doesn't change a thing. There is no causal link between vaccines and autism. There's isn't even a correlation argument, autism is just as prevalent in non vaccinated boys.

Autism isn't "raging" through the male population. It's being recognised earlier and diagnosed correctly.

Brian?

CaraMay wrote: »

Ridiculously patronizing respondes which I should have expected.

No room for discussion here evidently. I'm over and out.

There is plenty of room for discussion, but this really isn't a grey area that needs to be teased out and understood. The link between vaccines and autism does not exist. It's really that simple, there's nothing to debate really.

RentDayBlues

CaraMay wrote: »

An interesting article got those of you who so vehemently believe in the goodness of governments and scientists

http://healthimpactnews.com/2014/former-staff-lead-on-original-congressional-investigation-looking-at-vaccine-injuries-speaks-out-on-cdc-fraud/

Sure as long as it doesn't hit on you or your own sons, that's ok. Shame about the 5% of the male population is it raging through...

I took the time to read the "article". A number of things concerned me a lot about it: and none of them are related to vaccinations. The author clearly has a religious belief that this is her calling and she seems to be able to place the "facts"
in line to support her beliefs.

If there was any credible correlation between vaccinations and autism, why does it predominately affect males? Does the male body deal with vaccinations in a different way to the female? Surely the increase in diagnosis, as others have said, is due to a much better understanding of condition. Like a lot of medical conditions, the more the knowledge and awareness the likelihood in the increase of diagnosis.

January

My daughter is on the spectrum, she is vaccinated, except for her MMR which she was too poorly to get at the time and it slipped my mind. She is due to be vaccinated in the new year for the MMR. Autism is not caused by vaccines.

eyescreamcone

CaraMay wrote: »

Ridiculously patronizing respondes which I should have expected.

No room for discussion here evidently. I'm over and out.

Bye Bye
Don't slam the door on the way out please