Car stolen from driveway - keys in ignition

bucketybuck

bucketybuck wrote: »

Yes, somebody stealing your card and then also taking steps to steal your PIN is a crime. It is also incredibly difficult for somebody to actually discover what that PIN is. This means the PIN is an effective barrier to the theft of your money.

Would you not agree that it would be an incredibly stupid thing to forgo that extra protection by writing the PIN on the bank card itself?

Don't just reply with a non-answer, straight question straight answer.

It would be stupid but would that make it my fault that someone else committed a crime against me?

Please state where on your policy it specifically implies that the key theft is a deal breaker, for a claim?


Setting fire to your house with a chip pan or over filling a fireplace is a stupid thing to do but insurance will still pay out. That is wholly the fault of the person that caused the fire.

The OP did not ask for their car to be stolen.

Please indicate what the exact level of security is required to guarantee cover on insurance.
You are the one making the claim that there is a minimum barrier required now it's time to back it up.
Or are you going to give another "example" that has nothing to do with the case at hand?

Stallingrad

Deleted User wrote: »

Do you claim that a raped woman was asking for it by what she wears or walking home alone at night??

I'm tired of hearing this spurious parallel.

Insurers have clauses to protect themselves from poor judgement and risky behavior, e.g. drinking while driving. This is no different.

jezzer

ironclaw wrote: »

Yes they would. Next question: Produce the key(s) of the car. Or if the car shows up with no signs of forced start / cut keys. Its a false statement. By that logic its grand to say my neck hurts from a trolley hitting my car in the car park. Part and parcel of having insurance is to be truthful about any claims. Because when you demand more money, we all pay for it in the end.

The car was stolen but their was gross negligence which increased the risk. Insurance is based on risk and the OP pushed it outside the envelope, hence why its not covered.

produce the spare key and there is no way they can know the robbers had keys, and no no no, you are so wrong, this guys situation is in no way compared to the scummer who tries to make a false claim as you mention for example with the trolley, this guy genuinely had his car stolen, and because of silly small print may not get his due payout, totally different from the guy pretending to be hurt

BarryD

Be interesting if the case ended up in the courts - the OP was insured for theft, their car was stolen.. so unless their policy states very explicitly that a car cannot be left unattended on private property with the keys in it, it'd be hard to see how they could sustain a case.

We had a situation a good few years ago; drunk driver crashed into us, our car was a write off - his insurance company tried saying that he wasn't covered since he had stated he was a teetotaler when making his application. Therefore they tried to wash their hands of it - it didn't wash though and the fact was that they had insured him and he was liable for the damage. It didn't go to court, common sense eventually prevailed and they paid up but only after some pressure was applied.

Henry Ford III

jezzer wrote: »

And insurance companies are all so decent and moral? he wouldnt be making a false insurance claim because his car was in fact stolen and he had been paying for insurance

So it's ok to just conveniently ignore gross negligence and lie about a claim because of the alleged actions of some insurers?

Let's be clear here - the actions of the O.P. were a hugely contributory factor in the theft, and gross negligence is specifically mentioned in all motor policies as a grounds for declinature of a claim.

Stallingrad

Deleted User wrote: »

Please indicate what the exact level of security is required to guarantee cover on insurance.

Your answer is in your policy, look it up.

bucketybuck

Deleted User wrote: »

It would be stupid

So you agree then that it would be incredibly negligent to write your PIN on your bank card.

So why is it not incredibly negligent to leave your keys in the ignition of your car?

jezzer

Henry Ford III wrote: »

So it's ok to just conveniently ignore gross negligence and lie about a claim because of the alleged actions of some insurers?

Let's be clear here - the actions of the O.P. were a hugely contributory factor in the theft, and gross negligence is specifically mentioned in all motor policies as a grounds for declinature of a claim.

they guy was probably in a hurry and didnt think the car would be stolen in such a short space of time, the fact is that the car was stolen so he should have been careful with what he went back to the ins co with

jezzer

BarryD wrote: »

Be interesting if the case ended up in the courts - the OP was insured for theft, their car was stolen.. so unless their policy states very explicitly that a car cannot be left unattended on private property with the keys in it, it'd be hard to see how they could sustain a case.

We had a situation a good few years ago; drunk driver crashed into us, our car was a write off - his insurance company tried saying that he wasn't covered since he had stated he was a teetotaler when making his application. Therefore they tried to wash their hands of it - it didn't wash though and the fact was that they had insured him and he was liable for the damage. It didn't go to court, common sense eventually prevailed and they paid up but only after some pressure was applied.

Thats the way an insurance company operates, get people in and do whatever it takes no to pay out

ironclaw

jezzer wrote: »

produce the spare key and there is no way they can know the robbers had keys, and no no no, you are so wrong, this guys situation is in no way compared to the scummer who tries to make a false claim as you mention for example with the trolley, this guy genuinely had his car stolen, and because of silly small print may not get his due payout, totally different from the guy pretending to be hurt

The guy would be hiding the fact he left his car wide open with the keys in it and running. Its exactly the same as pretending to be hurt. You are leaving out a very key and vital piece of information. You sign a legally binding declaration when you sign the admission of events when claiming insurance. You are lying if what you write or say is not the truth.

As opposed to the poor lad who had his front door smashed in and the keys taken. That's what you pay for, an event you could not foresee. I can easily foresee in this day and age that my car is likely to be stolen if I leave the keys in it in a publicly accessible place. Any reasonable and clear thinking person would. Even behind a locked security gate, we don't leave the keys in the ignition or near the cars.

I cannot believe people are advocating to lie to insurance companies.

Henry Ford III

jezzer wrote: »

they guy was probably in a hurry and didnt think the car would be stolen in such a short space of time, the fact is that the car was stolen so he should have been careful with what he went back to the ins co with

That's unforunate, but it's still no excuse for making a fraudulant claim.

There's no disputing that the car was stolen btw, but in the circumstances the theft isn't covereed by insurance.

p.s. Please have a look at the forum rules - your suggestions are against the rules here I think.

BarryD

jezzer wrote: »

Thats the way an insurance company operates, get people in and do whatever it takes no to pay out

They run these adverts requesting help with insurance fraud frequently - 'Joe put his hand in your pocket etc'.

Their problem is they don't see the plank in their own eye - I've never made a fraudulent claim and yet on the few occasions that I've had a case to claim, the same insurance companies try and wriggle out of their responsibilities any way they can. Hypocrites.

bazz26

From the OP's original post:

PCros wrote: »

So this morning I went out to the car, started it up to defrost it and went back into the house for 30 seconds and looked out the window and this scumbag hops in the car and drives off.

Insurance has told me there is no cover for this, just wondering if anybody has ever been in the same situation?

I know what I have done was stupid and always taught I should stop this as it'll get robbed someday, well there you go!

The insurance company have told the OP they are not liable so it's fair to say that they are acting under the terms of that policy. How that policy is interpreted around here makes no difference at the end of the day.

bucketybuck

bucketybuck wrote: »

So you agree then that it would be incredibly negligent to write your PIN on your bank card.

So why is it not incredibly negligent to leave your keys in the ignition of your car?

I said stupid, I did not say negligent. Don't try to be smart by putting words in another's mouth.

I could easily give an example where people put their keys within reach of the letterbox as negligence. It's a deflection strategy by you and nothing else.

Why are you doing this??? Because you can not back up your claim that keys in the ignition is a valid reason to deny cover.
Back it up please

bazz26

bazz26 wrote: »

From the OP's original post:



The insurance company have told the OP they are not liable so it's fair to say that they are acting under the terms of that policy. How that policy is interpreted around here makes no difference at the end of the day.

What is under discussion is if he should challenge that interpretation. If there is not a specific mention of this occurrence in the policy then maybe he can

jezzer

Henry Ford III wrote: »

That's unforunate, but it's still no excuse for making a fraudulant claim.

There's no disputing that the car was stolen btw, but in the circumstances the theft isn't covereed by insurance.

p.s. I had a look at the forum rules - your suggestions are against the rules here.

Yes and you are going off topic, also against the rules, thats unfortunate but still no excuse for going off topic.

There is no disputing that my suggestions are against the rules but in the circumstances the Op should be able to claim his insurance

p.s. I wouldnt waste my time looking at the forum rules.

Henry Ford III

jezzer wrote: »

Yes and you are going off topic, also against the rules, thats unfortunate but still no excuse for going off topic.

There is no disputing that my suggestions are against the rules but in the circumstances the Op should be able to claim his insurance

p.s. I wouldnt waste my time looking at the forum rules.

I don't agree at all. I'm discussing the theft and the insurance cover, which is bang on topic.

I've referred the remainder of your post for consideration by the mods.

jezzer

Henry Ford III wrote: »

I don't agree at all. I'm discussing the theft and the insurance cover, which is bang on topic.

I've referred the remainder of your post for consideration by the mods.

I have also done the same, how nice of you. You really are providing such excellent discussion aimed at helping this poor fellow arent you?

bucketybuck

Deleted User wrote: »

I said stupid, I did not say negligent. Don't try to be smart by putting words in another's mouth.

Hang on, are you really saying its not negligent to write your PIN on your bank card? Are you saying its not negligent to leave your keys in the ignition?

Seriously? :eek:

bucketybuck

bucketybuck wrote: »

Hang on, are you really saying its not negligent to write your PIN on your bank card? Are you saying its not negligent to leave your keys in the ignition?

Seriously? :eek:

Nice strawman.

You are making an statement that leaving keys in the ignition is negligent to the level of cancelling insurance cover.

Please back it up and stop avoiding.

Kenny Logins

Deleted User wrote: »

Nice strawman.

You are making an statement that leaving keys in the ignition is negligent to the level of cancelling insurance cover.

Please back it up and stop avoiding.

I could go on, it seems to be mentioned across the board.

If I leave my keys in the ignition and my car is stolen am I covered?
No. Loss or damage caused by theft or attempted theft if the keys (or keyless entry system) are left unsecured or left in or on an unattended car is not covered.

http://www.axa.ie/faq/car-insurance-faq/

Significant and unusual exclusions or limitations
Theft of your vehicle, accessories or parts if unattended and left unlocked and / or the keys to the ignition are left with the
vehicle. (Refer to Section 1)

http://www.libertyinsurance.ie/documents/key-facts/GEI-QMP-Key-Facts.pdf

bazz26

Deleted User wrote: »

What is under discussion is if he should challenge that interpretation. If there is not a specific mention of this occurrence in the policy then maybe he can

I haven't read the OP's insurance policy terms and conditions, have you? I doubt very much that every scenario known to man is explicitly listed under any terms and conditions. Still doesn't mean that they don't fall under the terms though. In this case it would seem "negligence" is what the insurance company is standing firm on.

Skatedude

I know a lot of insurance companies wont cover you if the keys were used to steal the car. But what about when they steal the keys from the house first?

I'm glad i fitted a clifford alarm with intellistart. you hit the key fob when my alarm clock goes off which remote starts the car and i can go back to snooze for a bit and car is nice and toasty when i get in a few mins later. cant be stolen as i still have the key and the car cant be driven away without it.

bucketybuck

Deleted User wrote: »

Nice strawman.

You are making an statement that leaving keys in the ignition is negligent to the level of cancelling insurance cover.

Please back it up and stop avoiding.

Its not a strawman, its what you said.

Either you believe that leaving the keys in the ignition is not negligent, or you believe that negligent actions should not affect an insurance policy, which is it?

we'llallhavetea

Skatedude wrote: »

I know a lot of insurance companies wont cover you if the keys were used to steal the car. But what about when they steal the keys from the house first?

I'm glad i fitted a clifford alarm with intellistart. you hit the key fob when my alarm clock goes off which remote starts the car and i can go back to snooze for a bit and car is nice and toasty when i get in a few mins later. cant be stolen as i still have the key and the car cant be driven away without it.

thats pretty class! want!

BarryD

Quote:
If I leave my keys in the ignition and my car is stolen am I covered?
No. Loss or damage caused by theft or attempted theft if the keys (or keyless entry system) are left unsecured or left in or on an unattended car is not covered.
http://www.axa.ie/faq/car-insurance-faq/

I know a few people who keep a spare key hidden on their cars to guard against the rainy day that they lose their regular key and are stuck. I've seen magnetic waterproof holders in car shops etc - the above might suggest that if a thief got down and dirty and searched every nook and cranny and found the spare key, that this would be negligent and the insurance company would decline to pay out for theft? Many people do the same with house keys. This is typical of the grey areas that insurance companies like to try and get away from their part of the bargain. The only thing to do is to challenge them on it and be prepared to pursue them.

superelliptic

PCros wrote: »

Cant disagree with you, but in fairness I would say every second person does it.

Bit scary to think I was being watched as I had put the key in and closed the door with no lights on.

Sounds fairly opportunistic tbh. Doubt you were being watched OP, just some scumbag so an opening and took it.

bucketybuck

BarryD wrote: »

I know a few people who keep a spare key hidden on their cars to guard against the rainy day that they lose their regular key and are stuck. I've seen magnetic waterproof holders in car shops etc - the above might suggest that if a thief got down and dirty and searched every nook and cranny and found the spare key, that this would be negligent and the insurance company would decline to pay out for theft? Many people do the same with house keys. This is typical of the grey areas that insurance companies like to try and get away from their part of the bargain. The only thing to do is to challenge them on it and be prepared to pursue them.

That would also be negligent, but also far more difficult to prove. For instance, I doubt very many criminals are going to take the time to search every car for a spare key that might be there, but probably isn't.

And if they did, how does the owner even determine that they did so? Its not like the missing keys from the hallway, they could have found the spare key under the wheel arch or they could have lifted the car on a tow truck, the owner wasn't there, how can he tell which?

Kenny Logins

Kenny Logins wrote: »

I could go on, it seems to be mentioned across the board.



http://www.axa.ie/faq/car-insurance-faq/



http://www.libertyinsurance.ie/documents/key-facts/GEI-QMP-Key-Facts.pdf

THANK YOU. Pity that the guy making the statement was not as diligent as your kind self

bucketybuck

bucketybuck wrote: »

Its not a strawman, its what you said.

Either you believe that leaving the keys in the ignition is not negligent, or you believe that negligent actions should not affect an insurance policy, which is it?

I think that you need to look up the definition of a straw man lol.

Again you refused to back up your claim, lucky that there are others here that will actually do research to back up their claims.

Cheers Kenny

bear1

jezzer wrote: »

produce the spare key and there is no way they can know the robbers had keys, and no no no, you are so wrong, this guys situation is in no way compared to the scummer who tries to make a false claim as you mention for example with the trolley, this guy genuinely had his car stolen, and because of silly small print may not get his due payout, totally different from the guy pretending to be hurt

You are advising the OP to lie or others in general that the car was just stolen and answer nothing else.
They would ask how did they get the keys so you'd have to say they broke into the house.
That then becomes an even more serious lie.
Say they then find the car with the keys found in the ignition and not a mark on the car, how in the name of God would you explain that?
Judging by your other threads you seem to enjoy stirring up rubbish and then telling everyone how wrong they are.
Insurance companies are not stupid and they will make sure that the car was genuinely stolen and no bs is involved.
And believe me, they do check this out.

Stallingrad

Hopefully the OP is on Donedeal looking for another car, rather than trawling through this 'handbags at dawn' session.

Stallingrad

Stallingrad wrote: »

Hopefully the OP is on Donedeal looking for another car, rather than trawling through this 'handbags at dawn' session.

Or his own!!

jimgoose

Stallingrad wrote: »

Hopefully the OP is on Donedeal looking for another car, rather than trawling through this 'handbags at dawn' session.

Agreed. This kind of knobjockery pisses me off in Motors.

bucketybuck

Deleted User wrote: »

I think that you need to look up the definition of a straw man lol.

Again you refused to back up your claim, lucky that there are others here that will actually do research to back up their claims.

Cheers Kenny

Are you going to answer the question?

Either you believe that leaving the keys in the ignition is not negligent, or you believe that negligent actions should not affect an insurance policy, which is it?

bear1

jimgoose wrote: »

Agreed. This kind of knobjockery pisses me off in Motors.

+1, you'd think this is an AH thread ffs.
OP again I think I speak for most of us when I say hard luck and you know yourself where the error was which led to this.
You have been given some helpful advice for the future and you've been given some 3/4 pages of proper crap.
It is pointless lieing to the insurance company as it could make things worse.
I hope you get the car back in one piece and if you don't then check out the bangernomics thread here which has plenty of cheap cars going with NCT for very cheap cash.
If I were you I'd get myself a banger for a few months and save up again then sell on the banger for what you paid and buy a newer car.
The best of luck OP.

BostonB

Deleted User wrote: »

I think that you need to look up the definition of a straw man lol.

Again you refused to back up your claim, lucky that there are others here that will actually do research to back up their claims.

Cheers Kenny

In fairness you didn't do it either.

Its insurance, its all down to the policy, and not all policy's are the same. If there's any wiggle room the insurance company will do their best not pay out. If you haven't experienced this then you are lucky. In fairness to them, its also to cut out fraudulent claims.

Codpeas

gctest50 wrote: »

Remote start is what ya need

Had that on a hire car in the States one time - was great as it was early December and was freezing/snowing most days. The feature wasn't enabled by default but I had a habit of skimming the user manual on arrival and switching on all the cool stuff. :cool:
Sat down for brekkie in the hotel in the mornings, pressed two buttons on the key fob for five seconds and the car (which was parked approx. 100m away) would spring into life, heat the inside and defrost all the windows without it being unlocked. When you approached the car and unlocked it it would switch everything off and it would be ready for the normal start procedure.

BostonB

BostonB wrote: »

In fairness you didn't do it either.

Its insurance, its all down to the policy, and not all policy's are the same. If there's any wiggle room the insurance company will do their best not pay out. If you haven't experienced this then you are lucky. In fairness to them, its also to cut out fraudulent claims.

I asked questions not statememts

Spook_ie

Deleted User wrote: »

Define reasonable care? Are you meant to be on guard every moment of time?

Simplified, Yes you are, it's called taking reasonable care, leaving your car running in the driveway whilst not in immediate attendance is pure carelessness. Likewise if you got so drunk that you left your front door open when you returned and someone robbed you, that is stupidity.

Insurance is supposed to put right when something untoward happens, like a forced window to gain entry etc. not people's own stupidity

Spook_ie

Skatedude wrote: »

I know a lot of insurance companies wont cover you if the keys were used to steal the car. But what about when they steal the keys from the house first?

I'm glad i fitted a clifford alarm with intellistart. you hit the key fob when my alarm clock goes off which remote starts the car and i can go back to snooze for a bit and car is nice and toasty when i get in a few mins later. cant be stolen as i still have the key and the car cant be driven away without it.

As long as there was a theft covered by what they term "forced entry" from the house then yes they would normally cover it, happened to my wife's car, broke into house, took keys, loaded up car and drove off.

I suspect that if I'd left the door ajar then it wouldn't have been covered and nor would I expect it to be

bazz26

bazz26 wrote: »

So how would he explain the theft then?

Keys stolen from hall table, simple.

Henry Ford III wrote: »

So it's ok to just conveniently ignore gross negligence and lie about a claim because of the alleged actions of some insurers?

Let's be clear here - the actions of the O.P. were a hugely contributory factor in the theft, and gross negligence is specifically mentioned in all motor policies as a grounds for declinature of a claim.

Feck the insurance company, I never understood people's love of being so by the book and anal when it comes to this sort of thing. A person pays their premium and is not making some false injury claim etc that will cost huge money etc. They are getting no more than they should if they claim, I see no difference in making a theft claim in the situation where the keys were taken from the house or if they were in the car.

Voodoomelon

Sorry to hear this. So many people do it and I've done it myself, but I can leave the car running for a minute whilst I throw an empty jug back in the hallway with the car locked and keys in my pocket with keyless entry. No way would I leave them in a running car with a regular key, even for five seconds.

You even see people do it at petrol stations, running up to the window with cash, turning their back to their car.

biko

jezzer wrote: »

Look at the end of the day he shouldnt have disclosed to his insurance company that he left the keys in the car

Eve Some Transparency wrote: »

Keys stolen from hall table, simple. Feck the insurance company

Did you guys think it was ok to advise people to commit fraud in this forum?

It's not btw, if you're wondering.
Don't post in this thread any more.

Tigger

biko wrote: »

Did you guys think it was ok to advise people to commit fraud in this forum?

It's not btw, if you're wondering.
Don't post in this thread any more.

that's fraud but advising tax dodgers to sell their car back and forth to remove the back tax is fine

how does that work?

Spook_ie

Tigger wrote: »

that's fraud but advising tax dodgers to sell their car back and forth to remove the back tax is fine

how does that work?

Because one is legal the other isn't, maybe

Kangoo Man

This is why I live in Carlow, I start my car 10 minutes before I head off every morning in the frost and I've never had any problems. WTF is insurance for, the car is on my property, if somebody steals it, it's still robbery and should be covered by insurance...

Spook_ie

Kangoo Man wrote: »

This is why I live in Carlow, I start my car 10 minutes before I head off every morning in the frost and I've never had any problems. WTF is insurance for, the car is on my property, if somebody steals it, it's still robbery and should be covered by insurance...

Not if you're not taking reasonable precautions to prevent the theft.

You could have a large dog in the car, that would probably be a reasonable precaution

You could have a steering wheel lock, that would be a reasonable precaution ( IMO )

You could have a wheel clamp, that would be a reasonable precaution

You could have one of those lockable posts behind ( in front ) of the car, that would be a reasonable precaution.

But to just leave the engine running with the keys in the car, come on be sensible!

slimjimmc

Kangoo Man wrote: »

This is why I live in Carlow, I start my car 10 minutes before I head off every morning in the frost and I've never had any problems. WTF is insurance for, the car is on my property, if somebody steals it, it's still robbery and should be covered by insurance...

And I suspect the OP never had any problems either, until...

jezzer

Insurance companies are a dread