Fingal / North Dublin Transport Study

Idbatterim

I know this isnt just about serving the airport, but say they go with the luas airport route, realistically how long before the first tram runs? I wouldnt be at all surprised if the airport is handling over 30,000,000 at that stage, it could become a major hub with some vision, 21,700,000 used it last year and there are a large amount of new routes and or increased frequency planned for this year, Ryanair today announced a 30% increase year on year in traffic!

That is one issue, Dublin having a massive housing shortage is the next, whats the plan? build a lowish capacity luas, resulting in less density in the immediate surrounding area and more sprawl?

If this luas option is chosen, can it be objected to and realistically how long could it be held up? because if their bullsh*t of "not enough" demand etc, it suits them now, as they probably want to be seen as getting something done to justify their jobs or its optics for politicians before the 2016 election. But delay it for another year or two and their BS about demand etc will have been proven wrong...

This situation is beyond infuriating, the mickey mouse runway at dublin airport, two lane M50 with a toll bridge and roundabouts, not linking the luas from the get go. There is no shortage of money in this country, the people running the NTA, DOT are being bloody well paid, we have the benefit of hindsight now after decades of joke "planning". No more excuses!

On a side note, Noel Dempsey comes across as an absolute joke, he wouldnt say boo to a goose!

All these meetings seem to simply be for optics and make it look like you have an input! so for the people here that show up to meetings and for debate, its appears to me that you simply get fobbed off, is that correct? The last 27 pages of this thread have ended any "debate" there might have been its a black and white, open shut case!

The thing is I dont even think the heads of these organisations believe that what they are proposing is adequate, I reckon its simply a turf war as has been said, or they want a legacy or to be seen to do something!

What background, expertise or qualifications to the heads of these bodies have or is a note from Michael Lowry to the right person stating that you are a "handsome man" good enough?

murphaph

Jack Noble wrote: »

ROC replied that they have a number of options for the tunnel under GC, including some that skirt the edge of the cemetery and that they have discussed it with interested bodies but ultimately it is a planning decision for An Bord Pleanala and not for politicians.

Boom boom!

Aard

Jack Noble wrote: »

Not that I heard. First I knew about it was when Tom Manning handed me the lovely map after the meeting was over. Myself and another chap went WTF? around the same time.

Oh dear, I wonder if the RPA are trying to downplay the people mover element.

Aard

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

From where though, Broombridge? Given the RPA themselves say it will take 24 minutes to get from Broombridge to St. Stephen’s Green, a 50 minute journey time from Dublin Airport to SSG is not going to take too many people from the existing bus services.

So an out and out lie from Rory O'Connor at the Santry meeting regarding running times. I wonder how much longer it will take once one factors in the people-mover transfer.

This is not a credible option.

Grandeeod

Aard wrote: »

So an out and out lie from Rory O'Connor at the Santry meeting regarding running times. I wonder how much longer it will take once one factors in the people-mover transfer.

This is not a credible option.

With all due respect Aard, Mr. O'Connor is prone to spinning porkies as far back as 2005. He wasn't acting CEO back then either. But a few pints on Parkgate street usually sorts it out......in his favour. I know that doesn't assist the thread to any great degree, but I speak from experience. Ultimately none of them care about anything other than their jobs. This latest study/fudge also has the angle of justifying the very existance of the RPA.

murphaph

Grandeeod wrote: »

With all due respect Aard, Mr. O'Connor is prone to spinning porkies as far back as 2005. He wasn't acting CEO back then either. But a few pints on Parkgate street usually sorts it out......in his favour. I know that doesn't assist the thread to any great degree, but I speak from experience. Ultimately none of them care about anything other than their jobs. This latest study/fudge also has the angle of justifying the very existance of the RPA.

Yeah, this half baked Luas option really reeks of them proposing something, anything that they think the government might build, jut to get themselves over the pension line. As I said before, no shame whatsoever.

Zebra3

Where is the DAA in all this?

All this messing around could strangle the airport.

Or is that the plan?

monument

Jack Noble wrote: »

I'm sure he said SSG at the meeting. 30 mins to DUB and 35 mins to Swords.

If I remember correctly, with Metro it's 20 mins DUB to SSG and 25 mins to Swords.

From the files jd posted here...

Zebra3 wrote: »

Where is the DAA in all this?

All this messing around could strangle the airport.

Or is that the plan?

DAA's position... the same as it was with metro north? Stay the feck away from the active roads and runways in the airport?

cgcsb

Jack Noble wrote: »

I'm sure he said SSG at the meeting. 30 mins to DUB and 35 mins to Swords.<br />
<br />
If I remember correctly, with Metro it's 20 mins DUB to SSG and 25 mins to Swords.

<br />
<br />
That in its self is pants. There's no way a Swords to airport journey only takes 5 minutes when you have to transfer to a people carrier.

murphaph

Zebra3 wrote: »

Where is the DAA in all this?

DAA doesn't want any form of rail transport to the airport! They make far too much money from car parking for that!

L1011

murphaph wrote: »

DAA doesn't want any form of rail transport to the airport! They make far too much money from car parking for that!

It'll have little impact on carparking - virtually none on longterm and a bit on shortterm, mainly the 1-2 hour visits for collections I'd guess as the all-day users will still want their cars there.

What it will do is massacre taxi usage, which they also make money from. Many airports with rail services have virtually no taxis available compared to the hundreds waiting at DUB at all hours.

cgcsb

The taxi industry will also be damaged if we get a few competitively priced 24 hour bus routes on the weekends. All in all I can see the industry being massacred before the end of the decade. Too good for them.

murphaph

L1011 wrote: »

It'll have little impact on carparking - virtually none on longterm and a bit on shortterm, mainly the 1-2 hour visits for collections I'd guess as the all-day users will still want their cars there.

I'd have to disagree there. Only families travelling with small children are really bound to the car. Singles, couples etc. can generally pull a suitcase to the nearest station or even just take a short taxi ride to nearest station and then use the DART, Luas or whatever to get to the airport.

At least before we became parents, we would have always taken the S Bahn to the airport here in Berlin. With kids it's trickier and we always try to arrange it so someone can drop us off. We had our monthly transport tickets anyway, so it was only natural to use them to get to the airport and leave the car parked outside the flat.

The new Berlin airport expects 50% of all travellers to travel to/from the airport by public transport (mostly by train). DUB has plenty of scope to see modal shift from the car to any (half decent) rail based method of getting to/from the airport as part of a general expansion of the rail network in Dublin.

Carawaystick

pt access to the Airport might work that bit better if there were busses to Dublin for people arriving on late flights, at least until after the last bus to Ballyshannon leaves... 12:20 on Mondays

Idbatterim

why does the original MN or revised MN or even the latest joke luas proposal, not link up with Donabate station? where the dart could be extended out to cheap enough Id imagine...

L1011

murphaph wrote: »

I'd have to disagree there. Only families travelling with small children are really bound to the car. Singles, couples etc. can generally pull a suitcase to the nearest station or even just take a short taxi ride to nearest station and then use the DART, Luas or whatever to get to the airport.

At least before we became parents, we would have always taken the S Bahn to the airport here in Berlin. With kids it's trickier and we always try to arrange it so someone can drop us off. We had our monthly transport tickets anyway, so it was only natural to use them to get to the airport and leave the car parked outside the flat.

The new Berlin airport expects 50% of all travellers to travel to/from the airport by public transport (mostly by train). DUB has plenty of scope to see modal shift from the car to any (half decent) rail based method of getting to/from the airport as part of a general expansion of the rail network in Dublin.

The lack of suburban rail except along four small enough corridors in Dublin, as well as Dublin's position as the "proper" airport for the entire island most of which has no rail service at all or none worth talking about means we can't expect anything close to Berlin to occur. There's still acres of surface parking at Gatwick which has good trains to its entire catchment area.

markpb

murphaph wrote: »

The new Berlin airport expects 50% of all travellers to travel to/from the airport by public transport (mostly by train)

Is that true? I thought the international average figure was around 18%?

plodder

I know in Munich it's over 30% despite the airport being a good 40 minutes outside the city. It helps that you can get to the airport from any station on the Munich U/S bahn with only one change. So, even with a high quality connection to Dublin airport, it's doubtful we'd ever reach that kind of number, but it will increase relative to every improvement in the Dublin rail network.

monument

markpb wrote: »

Is that true? I thought the international average figure was around 18%?

This is the new, "national embarrassment" yet-to-open airport, now expected to open 2017.

L1011

monument wrote: »

This is the new, "national embarrassment" yet-to-open airport, now expected to open 2017.

The airport for which every prediction (cost, opening date, traffic at opening, etc) has been incredibly inaccurate, at that.

murphaph

L1011 wrote: »

The lack of suburban rail except along four small enough corridors in Dublin, as well as Dublin's position as the "proper" airport for the entire island most of which has no rail service at all or none worth talking about means we can't expect anything close to Berlin to occur.

I wouldn't expect it to get to 50%, but a proper rail based solution as part of a general improvement of rail based PT in Dublin will definitely make a dent on DAA's car parking receipts.

L1011 wrote: »

There's still acres of surface parking at Gatwick which has good trains to its entire catchment area.

There is acres of parking in BER as well, but they will still be aiming for 50% by public transport.

Do you think if Gatwick had no rail connections that they would need more, less or the same amount of car parking spaces?

Sam Russell

If Gatwick had no rail, they would have fewer passengers.

Roryhy

Found these in a report online, would add quite a bit to the train journey if all Belfast-Dublin trains were routed through the airport.

Roryhy

D.L.R. wrote: »

Not possible with diesel trains.

Why? Diesel trains can run on electrified lines.

D.L.R.

Roryhy wrote: »

Why? Diesel trains can run on electrified lines.

Not into underground stations! Also, the spur is south-facing.

monument

Roryhy wrote: »

Found these in a report online, would add quite a bit to the train journey if all Belfast-Dublin trains were routed through the airport.

That does not allow for Belfast-Dublin Airport services. The junction there is only for services heading Dublin Airport to the city centre or vice versa.

Roryhy

D.L.R. wrote: »

Not into underground stations! Also, the spur is south-facing.

Ventilation wouldn't be difficult for this small stretch. Have they said the station would be underground?

Reason I mention it is because it was in the news reports a couple of weeks ago.

Sam Russell

There are only eight services at the present time Dublin-Belfast-Dublin. Is there any demand for DUB-Belfast or Belfast-DUB?

Anyway a Clongriffin to DUB would make more sense if the DU existed, and if the spur continued to Swords, and the reconnected with the Northern line further up.

To complete the puzzle, MN.

D.L.R.

Roryhy wrote: »

Ventilation wouldn't be difficult for this small stretch. Have they said the station would be underground?

Reason I mention it is because it was in the news reports a couple of weeks ago.

Yes the station is to be underground. Its not designed with intercity in mind, its a spur for Darts only. Anything else is political spoofing.

Regards ventilation, you would need the trains to retain their exhaust underground, pretty sure ours can't. You can't have diesel exhaust coming out of a stopped train in an underground station with people in it, can you?

monument

D.L.R. wrote: »

Yes the station is to be underground. Its not designed with intercity in mind, its a spur for Darts only. Anything else is political spoofing.

Regards ventilation, you would need the trains to retain their exhaust underground, pretty sure ours can't. You can't have diesel exhaust coming out of a stopped train in an underground station with people in it, can you?

The main Clongriffin to Airport branch is not suggested to have an underground station at the airport.

Only some of the extra options did, ie one which continues onto Swords.