Fingal / North Dublin Transport Study

AngryLips

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

At 10.30 on Friday night people were left standing on the platform (southbound) at Charlemont because the Luas was so over-crowded.

The display put the next one arriving at 15 minutes, probably already full leaving Stephens Green.

This is the line that is now going to serve Swords and Dublin Airport?

If that were typical then there is room to increase frequency. Overcrowding is generally the exception rather than the rule.

cgcsb

An airport journey time would be circa 40-45 mins making even the current 41 bus faster. It will however add some degree of frequency and reliability that will attract some. With a journey time to Swords being touching on an hour, I can't see it being worth while.

The people mover and lack of interchange with the Maynooth line is a massive blunder by government, bigger than building 2 non connecting luaus lines. A royal botch job.

Zebra3

Luas extension to the airport is beyond a sick joke.

This nonsense needs to be shot down.

Pete_Cavan

Yep, the most positive thing you can say about the Swords/airport Luas extension is that it offers "some degree of frequency"! Even this is questionable given the line which runs on street through the city centre will have to accommodate at least two different services (to Broombrigde and to Swords/airport) so slots divided between them.

I dont know how a Luas extension can even be considered, it doesnt even go to the airport and will have 12+ stops between Swords and the city centre when express buses with better segregation already operate. Do nothing is genuinely a more attractive option at this stage.

Schadenfreudia

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I dont think over crowding on the existing green line is going to be a problem for the extension. Most people will be getting off between Harcourt Street and Parnell Street so there will be space for those boarding to travel further north.

According to the PRA, it will take ~20 minutes to get from SSG to Cabra, add to that a mainly on road journey including 8 stops before you get to the "airport stop" to transfer to a people mover or a couple more km to reach Swords. I cant see people going to/from the airport or Swords switching from the existing bus services. People along the Ballymun Road will probably be the main users of the Luas extension so should be fine for capacity. Thats how bad this proposal is.

The original proposal, if I recall, was that the Green line as far as Sandyford would be up-graded to metro and then continue to the Airport/Swords as Metro North.



A Luas extension from Cabra will be completely useless in terms of taking airport traffic off the M50 and the city streets.

The problem is this mickey-mouse system will cost nearly half as much as MN and be used as an excuse to never construct a proper Airport connection.

LXFlyer

Once again, none of the LUAS or BRT proposals are about serving the Airport per se.

They are about serving all of the corridor en route.

People have to stop thinking about these proposals in terms of solely an airport connection.

Schadenfreudia

AngryLips wrote: »

If that were typical then there is room to increase frequency. Overcrowding is generally the exception rather than the rule.

It's the rule at the morning and evening rush hours; but at least the frequency is better then.

I wasn't expecting it heading south on a Friday night hours before pub closing time and two hours before the last Luas.

Schadenfreudia

lxflyer wrote: »

Once again, none of the LUAS or BRT proposals are about serving the Airport per se.

They are about serving all of the corridor en route.

People have to stop thinking about these proposals in terms of solely an airport connection.

Fine. But my concern is that the political class will think the Airport is "served" when there is a Luas running between it and the City Centre.

They certainly seem to be presenting this as the "Airport connection"

Zebra3

lxflyer wrote: »

Once again, none of the LUAS or BRT proposals are about serving the Airport per se.

They are about serving all of the corridor en route.

People have to stop thinking about these proposals in terms of solely an airport connection.

Of course, but this Luas extension is a piecemeal joke that takes people on a not so magical mystery tour to get to the airport and as pointed out above will be used to kill off any future debate about MN.

Not one other city around Europe would even consider this. It's a shambles and it's what happens when we have political interference as this article shows.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/extra-trains-costing-20000-per-day-put-on-ministers-lossmaking-route-26825930.html

Grandeeod

lxflyer wrote: »

Once again, none of the LUAS or BRT proposals are about serving the Airport per se.

They are about serving all of the corridor en route.

People have to stop thinking about these proposals in terms of solely an airport connection.

With respect, it doesn't matter. While I completely understand what you are saying and accept that it is the case, the Airport is a big PAX generator and when added to the corridor, any solution needs to plan for that.

Ren2k7

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

The original proposal, if I recall, was that the Green line as far as Sandyford would be up-graded to metro and then continue to the Airport/Swords as Metro North.



A Luas extension from Cabra will be completely useless in terms of taking airport traffic off the M50 and the city streets.

The problem is this mickey-mouse system will cost nearly half as much as MN and be used as an excuse to never construct a proper Airport connection.

I recall in the NTA 2030 document they suggested at some point in the future the Luas would be moved underground, but they may as well been proposing a space elevator to the moon for all that it mattered. Because as we all know these grandiose plans have a habit of being rendered obsolete quite quickly due to reviews and the like.

murphaph

I've said it before and I'll say it again...if other cities had their ducks all lined up like the MN corridor they'd have built it decades ago! The proposed MN corridor in almost a straight line passes several very large trip generators including the north and south inner city, TCD, Mater hospital, Rotunda Hospital, Croke Park, DCU, IKEA, Dublin Airport and would or (easily) could interchange with DART/heavy rail at 3, possibly 4 locations (the Green, Tara Street (maybe), Drumcondra and (fairly easily) Donabate and with existing Luas at multiple locations and of course the large residential areas of Sword and Ballymun and the fantastic opportunity for large scale P&R adjacent to 2 motorways.

If all these things aren't enough to force the building of a half decent link, then nothing ever will be. Luas has its place, as does BRT and just decent bus routes, but this route demands something more, so it can act as a spine, into which the buses would feed. We need to get away from buses running into the city and instead get them feeding into rail, wherever possible. To do that, you need the capacity. The Cabra Luas spur has insufficient capacity to allow it to be used as a spine into which you could funnel passengers with buses. It's not the right solution for this route.

Van.Bosch

murphaph wrote: »

I've said it before and I'll say it again...if other cities had their ducks all lined up like the MN corridor they'd have built it decades ago! The proposed MN corridor in almost a straight line passes several very large trip generators including the north and south inner city, TCD, Mater hospital, Rotunda Hospital, Croke Park, DCU, IKEA, Dublin Airport and would or (easily) could interchange with DART/heavy rail at 3, possibly 4 locations (the Green, Tara Street (maybe), Drumcondra and (fairly easily) Donabate and with existing Luas at multiple locations and of course the large residential areas of Sword and Ballymun and the fantastic opportunity for large scale P&R adjacent to 2 motorways.

If all these things aren't enough to force the building of a half decent link, then nothing ever will be. Luas has its place, as does BRT and just decent bus routes, but this route demands something more, so it can act as a spine, into which the buses would feed. We need to get away from buses running into the city and instead get them feeding into rail, wherever possible. To do that, you need the capacity. The Cabra Luas spur has insufficient capacity to allow it to be used as a spine into which you could funnel passengers with buses. It's not the right solution for this route.

Nail on the head, 100% agree.

MN is not going to happen though unfortunately for a number of reasons. Luas via Cabra is probably all that will happen, so it's a case of settling for third or fourth best or nothing. A poor reflection on Ireland but I hope it is built because it is better than nothing, insufficient capacity, a ridiculous people mover and slow journey times but it is all that will happen.

It is not in my nature to settle and I used to resent people who routinely said "we don't do things properly in Ireland" but I fear they are right.

Sam Russell

What happened to the Clongriffin - Airport Dart spur? Surely that would go a long way to provide a passenger link to the city centre. It could even turn North and onto Swords, and possibly rejoin the Northern line.

LXFlyer

Grandeeod wrote: »

With respect, it doesn't matter. While I completely understand what you are saying and accept that it is the case, the Airport is a big PAX generator and when added to the corridor, any solution needs to plan for that.

Well with equal respect, I think it does matter, as people keep getting the wrong idea. While this is partially about serving the airport, building links to the airport for employees is also important from local communities, along with improving transport links in the north of the city.

People here repeatedly seem to think that this is only about either the Airport or Swords, and the reality is that they are only a small part of it - the entire corridor is what is being considered.

Ren2k7

Sam Russell wrote: »

What happened to the Clongriffin - Airport Dart spur? Surely that would go a long way to provide a passenger link to the city centre. It could even turn North and onto Swords, and possibly rejoin the Northern line.

An even worse design that is contingent on DART-U to make any sort of sense.

Sam Russell

Ren2k7 wrote: »

An even worse design that is contingent on DART-U to make any sort of sense.

It is 7 km of rail over open countryside with a few major bridges. It will provide a link from the airport to Connolly in about 17min or so depending on traffic/scheduling. I accept that it makes more sense with DU but it would shift a lot of passengers and staff rapidly, and could run the same hours as the airport.

What is bad about that?

Ren2k7

Sam Russell wrote: »

It is 7 km of rail over open countryside with a few major bridges. It will provide a link from the airport to Connolly in about 17min or so depending on traffic/scheduling. I accept that it makes more sense with DU but it would shift a lot of passengers and staff rapidly, and could run the same hours as the airport.

What is bad about that?

It will create more congestion on the already busy northern commuter line as well as creating a chokepoint at Clongriffin as people heading south from Dundalk/Drogheda/etc will get off there to transfer to the airport service. It's a poorly thought out stop gap measure that would in all likelihood end up being a permanent solution.

If we're going to provide connectivity between the city centre and airport/Swords let's do the job right and not in a half arsed manner that is so typical of this country.

markpb

Sam Russell wrote: »

It is 7 km of rail over open countryside with a few major bridges. It will provide a link from the airport to Connolly in about 17min or so depending on traffic/scheduling. I accept that it makes more sense with DU but it would shift a lot of passengers and staff rapidly, and could run the same hours as the airport.

What is bad about that?

It would be longer, slower and no more reliable than the current bus based alternatives via DPT. It would reduce the level of service to either Howth or Malahide. I haven't looked at the plans in a while but presumably it would involve a flat junction which means that airport to city trains would bring the northside dart network to a halt and slow down northbound IC and suburban routes.

So basically, for €200m, you help people who live on the northside Dart line get to the airport more easily.

LXFlyer

Ren2k7 wrote: »

It will create more congestion on the already busy northern commuter line as well as creating a chokepoint at Clongriffin as people heading south from Dundalk/Drogheda/etc will get off there to transfer to the airport service. It's a poorly thought out stop gap measure that would in all likelihood end up being a permanent solution.

If we're going to provide connectivity between the city centre and airport/Swords let's do the job right and not in a half arsed manner that is so typical of this country.

Explain how it would cause additional congestion?

Presumably you have examined all the paths available based on the re-signalled railway to make that assessment?

LXFlyer

markpb wrote: »

It would be longer, slower and no more reliable than the current bus based alternatives via DPT. It would reduce the level of service to either Howth or Malahide. I haven't looked at the plans in a while but presumably it would involve a flat junction which means that airport to city trains would bring the northside dart network to a halt and slow down northbound IC and suburban routes.

So basically, for €200m, you help people who live on the northside Dart line get to the airport more easily.

It would certainly involve a flyover across the northern line for the inbound line to join that line at Clongriffin - a flat crossing would make no sense.

Again, what about the additional connectivity that would result from the north eastern suburbs of Dublin to the airport for both employees and passengers - that has to be positive. Also, connections to north Dublin and Belfast could be made at Clongriffin.

Ren2k7

lxflyer wrote: »

Explain how it would cause additional congestion?

Presumably you have examined all the paths available based on the re-signalled railway to make that assessment?

A DART spur would run on the same line as existing commuter and DART services thereby creating additional pressure on services. This is not the answer, Metro North and DART-U are exactly what Dublin needs. Anything less is a fudge and doomed to failure.

Zebra3

lxflyer wrote: »

Well with equal respect, I think it does matter, as people keep getting the wrong idea. While this is partially about serving the airport, building links to the airport for employees is also important from local communities, along with improving transport links in the north of the city.

People here repeatedly seem to think that this is only about either the Airport or Swords, and the reality is that they are only a small part of it - the entire corridor is what is being considered.

No, I think the majority of people on here don't think it's just about the airport and/or Swords. That's what some clowns in the media and Leinster House think.

But nobody in their right mind can see this as any sort of answer to Dublin's PT deficit. If it happens, it'll be a disaster for Dublin.

As one poster said earlier, nothing would be better than this. It'll cost the city so much in the long-run. The airport will have been "dealt with" and it'll be back to concreting the countryside with pointless motorways to serve one off housing.

LXFlyer

Ren2k7 wrote: »

A DART spur would run on the same line as existing commuter and DART services thereby creating additional pressure on services. This is not the answer, Metro North and DART-U are exactly what Dublin needs. Anything less is a fudge and doomed to failure.

The DART spur would be served by normal DART services, running non-stop to Clongriffin from the Airport and then serving all stations. Therefore it would fall into existing paths - they wouldn't be additional services so this argument that they would cause additional pressure is false.

You might see some off-peak Howth branch services becoming a shuttle service to facilitate the airport spur. Remember though that the base DART frequency is already being increased to every 10 minutes next year.

I don't disagree that MN and DART Underground are ideal, and indeed I'd prefer to see the DART spur as part of the DART Underground proposal.

markpb

lxflyer wrote: »

It would certainly involve a flyover across the northern line for the inbound line to join that line at Clongriffin - a flat crossing would make no sense.

I'm not sure that €200m would pay for 7km of track, a station at the airport and a flyover but I hope you're right.

Again, what about the additional connectivity that would result from the north eastern suburbs of Dublin to the airport for both employees and passengers - that has to be positive. Also, connections to north Dublin and Belfast could be made at Clongriffin.

Belfast airport already has a decent connection to the airport. The rail link will be no faster and will require connections which well put people with bags off using it.

People on the southside of the dart line and in the city centre already have decent connections to the airport.

People living on the north side of the dart line will benefit but, because of Irish Rails poor operating hours, a significant portion of the airport staff won't be able to use the train.

That leaves anyone living on the north side of the dart line going on holidays and happy to take a two train journey to get to the airport. Are there enough of those people to warrant spending €200

cgcsb

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

The original proposal, if I recall, was that the Green line as far as Sandyford would be up-graded to metro and then continue to the Airport/Swords as Metro North.



A Luas extension from Cabra will be completely useless in terms of taking airport traffic off the M50 and the city streets.

The problem is this mickey-mouse system will cost nearly half as much as MN and be used as an excuse to never construct a proper Airport connection.

If we end up having to add a tunnel between Broadstone and Stephen's Green(which will inevitably be the case, it'll cost MORE than MN.

cgcsb

lxflyer wrote: »

Once again, none of the LUAS or BRT proposals are about serving the Airport per se.

They are about serving all of the corridor en route.

People have to stop thinking about these proposals in terms of solely an airport connection.

Yes, it also fails to get commuters between Swords, Santry and Ballymun to the City Centre in decent time, it also fails to connect to the Maynooth line (enough to get you dragged out and shot in most of the planning offices of the developed world). It's not only a failure as an airport link, it's just a general failure.

cgcsb

I would plead with the govt at this stage to, instead of this plan, have a luas along the centre of Ballymun Rd, tunnel from Glasevin to Phibsborough and run along the royal canal park to join BXD at Dominic St.

At least this is a more direct route and could be segregated all the way to Dominic St.

Sam Russell

markpb wrote: »

It would be longer, slower and no more reliable than the current bus based alternatives via DPT. It would reduce the level of service to either Howth or Malahide. I haven't looked at the plans in a while but presumably it would involve a flat junction which means that airport to city trains would bring the northside dart network to a halt and slow down northbound IC and suburban routes.

So basically, for €200m, you help people who live on the northside Dart line get to the airport more easily.

Have you seen Clongriffin Dart station recently? It is obviously designed to be an interchange for the Dart Spur. A crossover for southbound is anticipated as well as there is plenty of room already fenced off.

The bus system is not adequate as evidenced by the number of passengers and staff who do not use it but arrive by car. The buses are not reliable - over the last few months I have, on a number of occasions, gone for an Aircoach that never arrived, one at 5:30am causing great grief.

An 8 coach train will carry the contents about a dozen coaches, and running every 20 mins or so will provide greater frequency and reliability. Remember when the Dart started in 1982/3 when it was a complete waste of time? And the Luas?

If it was built, Irish Rail would have to make it work by accommodating the airport opening hours (at both ends of the day).

Most objections on here are centred around the idea that if we get the Dart Airport spur then we cannot get MN, or DU. This I do not see as valid. The spur is a quick low cost solution that can be delivered now. They have readied Connolly for extra traffic with the new signals, and Clongriffin station. DU or MN would not be in operation for nearly a decade if announced in October as part of the budget. The spur could be there in a few years.

They should look for EU funding for all three projects.

LXFlyer

markpb wrote: »

I'm not sure that €200m would pay for 7km of track, a station at the airport and a flyover but I hope you're right.



Belfast airport already has a decent connection to the airport. The rail link will be no faster and will require connections which well put people with bags off using it.

People on the southside of the dart line and in the city centre already have decent connections to the airport.

People living on the north side of the dart line will benefit but, because of Irish Rails poor operating hours, a significant portion of the airport staff won't be able to use the train.

That leaves anyone living on the north side of the dart line going on holidays and happy to take a two train journey to get to the airport. Are there enough of those people to warrant spending €200

Could DART hours not be extended?