Fingal / North Dublin Transport Study

cgcsb

Agreed. I was just saying a phased metro north would be preferable to a botched luas line.

Sam Russell

A SSG to the Airport would be a phased MN. The full run should be UCD SSG Airport Swords.

Idbatterim

Could it be divided into two phases , 1 to airport , then next to connect with swords and northern line?

Or alternatively at this stage , how about heavy rail, if lines will be electrified eventually I.e cork Belfast Limerick etc? Connect northern line with city centre and onto wherever from there southern or western line etc as intercity or dart?

If there was any vision when initial Luas and current green line was conceived, could they not have 90m platforms & tunnel from ssg to O'Connell street and connect lines that way, then Luas onto airport but mainly segregated underground as proposed metro north?

This short term thinking saves peanuts and costs a fortune to put right ...

yermanoffthetv

Idbatterim wrote: »

Could it be divided into two phases , 1 to airport , then next to connect with swords and northern line?

Or alternatively at this stage , how about heavy rail, if lines will be electrified eventually I.e cork Belfast Limerick etc? Connect northern line with city centre and onto wherever from there southern or western line etc as intercity or dart?

If there was any vision when initial Luas and current green line was conceived, could they not have 90m platforms & tunnel from ssg to O'Connell street and connect lines that way, then Luas onto airport but mainly segregated underground as proposed metro north?

This short term thinking saves peanuts and costs a fortune to put right ...

I always thought a Dart type heavy rail option was a better choice in the long run, have it tie in to the canal line at glasnevin and link up with dart underground in the docklands. Eventually electrify maynooth and navan lines and connect it all up at Cabra. Boom, proper metro right there.

strassenwo!f

I think if the authorities are now proposing to replace the metro along this corridor with a LUAS, we can pretty much discount any idea that there's going to be a heavy rail option along the route.

Idbatterim

At this stage, I'd far prefer to hear that the can was being kicked down the road again, than take some gamble on them going for MN revised or more likely Luas, as cost seems to be the only criteria they are basing it on...

My thoughts are, they won't want to go with MN revised just before election and hopefully conclude Luas would be a joke. So nothing gets done imminently anyway...

Schadenfreudia

Idbatterim wrote: »

My thoughts are, they won't want to go with MN revised just before election and hopefully conclude Luas would be a joke. So nothing gets done imminently anyway...

You could be right - Paschal appears to be dumbstruck at the moment - the "announcement" that never barked.

cgcsb

Well an announcement on DARTu is required by the courts this sept so with any luck there'll be a go ahead for DARTu and MetroN will be kicked down the road and become an election promise.

xper

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

You could be right - Paschal appears to be dumbstruck at the moment - the "announcement" that never barked.

Can't help thinking that Varadkar would have spilled the beans by now. May well be that the preference has been decided within the dept but is being delayed or kicked around at cabinet/finance/party level.

cgcsb wrote: »

Well an announcement on DARTu is required by the courts this sept so with any luck there'll be a go ahead for DARTu and MetroN will be kicked down the road and become an election promise.

A decision on DartU would likely require some sort of decision on MN more decisive, positive or negative, than just a sometime-in-the-future election promise due to the SSG station design.

I wonder whether the government's face off with the EU over the tendering of rail passenger services from 2019 needs to be resolved before they'll commit to these infrastructure projects?

AngryLips

I feel like if they go with a Luas further north beyond Brookbridge then they would need another cross city Luas line because otherwise you're going to be channeling an awful lot of traffic through BXD. George's Street/Capel Street is just begging to be used as another cross city corridor for public transport

aliveandkicking

AngryLips wrote: »

I feel like if they go with a Luas further north beyond Brookbridge then they would need another cross city Luas line because otherwise you're going to be channeling an awful lot of traffic through BXD. George's Street/Capel Street is just begging to be used as another cross city corridor for public transport

The original Platform for Change document had a cross city Luas line running further west than the suggestion above, from Broadstone via Church St, High St, Patrick St, Clanbrassil St to Harolds Cross. I feel this route is more likely than any route via Capel or Georges St. Might happen sometime around 2050. Sad that I'm not even joking saying that.

Schadenfreudia

The brightest spark in Ireland strikes again!

According to the Irish Times Paschal said that BXD was going to take "ten million people out of their cars" - but - he is going to ensure "the levels of disruption are minimised" while removing the 10 million!

Why do FG appoint escapees from the remedial class to Ministerial office? :cool:

strassenwo!f

aliveandkicking wrote: »

The original Platform for Change document had a cross city Luas line running further west than the suggestion above, from Broadstone via Church St, High St, Patrick St, Clanbrassil St to Harolds Cross. I feel this route is more likely than any route via Capel or Georges St. Might happen sometime around 2050. Sad that I'm not even joking saying that.

2050 is probably optimistic for this route.

This particular piece of crayonism from the DTO highlights how the Platform for Change plan was clearly produced by a group of people sitting in an office, looking at a map and doing a join-the-dots exercise.

The gradients on Steevens' Lane were heading towards the gradient limit of the LUAS vehicles, and Bridge Street would be a lot steeper. A lot.

(I'd imagine it might be doable with one of those things that ratchets you up to the top of a roller-coaster).

jd

One report in Sunday Business Post saying Dublin Underground may never see the light of day.
Another in the Sunday Times saying that a heavy rail link (spur) may be Paschal's favoured option.
If you put the two reports together it ain't pretty.

Sam Russell

jd wrote: »

One report in Sunday Business Post saying Dublin Underground may never see the light of day.
Another in the Sunday Times saying that a heavy rail link (spur) may be Paschal's favoured option.
If you put the two reports together it ain't pretty.

You will not get light of day in a tunnel!

jd

Sam Russell wrote: »

You will not get light of day in a tunnel!

Coffee please!!!!!!!!!

monument

jd wrote: »

One report in Sunday Business Post saying Dublin Underground may never see the light of day.
Another in the Sunday Times saying that a heavy rail link (spur) may be Paschal's favoured option.
If you put the two reports together it ain't pretty.

Paschal's and the NTA's stances makes it look good for Dart Underground -- that's good for the city and region just on the bases of Dart Underground, but it also does not rule out Metro North in the future.

Sam Russell

The Clongriffin/Airport spur makes sense on its own because it is low ticket and fast to build with rapid pay back. DU is high cost and slow build but the spur fits in well with it. Both of these projects could be sold as benefitting Ireland as a whole - tourism, prestige, improves access for rural areas etc.

MN is needed and should go ahead but it is likely to be put on the long finger unfortunately, because, unlike the other two, it looks like it only benefits Dublin North - not even the southside (although that is not true). It will also take a long time to build and take much money.

However, they should make announcements in the budget to avoid being accused of electioneering.

D.L.R.

So "a heavy rail link" to the airport is Paschal's preference, according to the Sunday Times, due to its superior capacity to all other modes. Has to be the spur doesn't it, would be shocked if HR8 got approval.

Though when you think about it, building DU and HR8 back to back would be economical, given they'd share tunnel size, machinery, basic station design and construction crew. But it would mean a long time before an airport link got built. Personally I'd accept that drawback, but that's just me.

All comes down to political will really, and past form suggests it'll be the cheap and fast option.

Idbatterim

just came across the below article by chance, dated 07.02.15

The FF councillor and Green party representative were both strongly in favour of MN.

Some of the FF councillors opinions are very similar to what we have said on this thread!

Irish Rail's backing for a 'Dart spur' from Clongriffin to Dublin Airport is not the way forward for Swords commuters and posed the 'biggest threat' to delivering a Metro North or Northside Luas line to the Fingal capital.

Dart spur is 'a disaster'

That is the view of Cllr Darragh Butler (FF), a campaigner for Metro North, who said this week: 'A DART spur from Clongriffin to Dublin Airport is the biggest threat to Metro North or a Northside Luas line that takes in Swords and the Airport.
'I am really fearful that this awful spur suggestion will be given the go ahead. We need a solution that addresses the transport needs of the northside of Dublin and this must be a Metro or Luas rail link from Swords, via Dublin Airport and D.C.U. to O'Connell Street. '
Cllr Butler said: 'An airport spur would be a disaster. It would be great for people from Belfast, Cork, Galway and those on the southside to get to the airport once or twice a year, but will do nothing for the daily transport needs of the northside.
'Who wants to be diverted to Clongriffin, to an already over-crowded and slow rail line? We'd still be better off on the 41 or Swords Express.
'My real worry is that this Government will fob us off with the Swiftway bendy buses and this awful Dart spur. Yet again it would be another great transport win for the southside of Dublin in that they are now connected to the airport and a major defeat for the northside.'
Six options for the future transport needs for Swords and Fingal are being considered by the National Transport Authority (NTA) at the moment.
In a submission to the NTA, local Green Party representative, Joe O'Brien said he and his party favoured Metro North and said that putting that project on the shelf back in 2012, was a mistake by the current Government.
He said: 'I believe that the people of North Dublin simply cannot continue to wait, and that investment in public transport should be accelerated and viewed as a matter of priority.'

Out of interest, would it be possible to build DU and MN as one scheme, i.e. a dart following similar or exact same route as MN to link with northern line?

Schadenfreudia

I think most of us are agreed that the real game-changer for PT in Dublin would be DU.

So I'm inclined to look at all other proposals in the light of whether or not they improve the chances of DU proceeding.

In that light MN or a Luas extension both use up huge quantities of money that could be progressing DU; without helping build the case for DU.

The Airport spur from the DART line, on the other hand, will tend to increase the need for DU in order to cope with the traffic.

On balance I'm thinking the spur might be the best airport option taking everything into account.

Connecting the central Northside is obviously important to the areas involved - but DU is crucial for the whole GDA and beyond.

Idbatterim

the other thing DU and MN would do is open up lands with huge amounts of development potential near them. If you are living on a high frequency line, it would take some pressure off Dublin in terms of housing. As living in areas served by the expanded dart network, would become a whole lot more viable, for a lot of people, all of a sudden...

Sam Russell

I do not get why the Clongriffin spur would stop the MN project. The spur gives rapid connection to CC and strengthens the need for DU.

MN is a major transport requirement for Dublin North and Swords. It would help if it were Dart compatible so a Dart network could be developed. Extending it to UCD and onwards would make a huge benefit as it adds another journey developer.

But it is better to do something now than wait another decade. Interest rates are rising soon.

AngryLips

Sam Russell wrote: »

I do not get why the Clongriffin spur would stop the MN project. The spur gives rapid connection to CC and strengthens the need for DU.

Manchester went for a light rail connection to the airport despite the fact that it was already served by a heavy rail option.

Grandeeod

AngryLips wrote: »

Manchester went for a light rail connection to the airport despite the fact that it was already served by a heavy rail option.

Manchester? Dublin? Please stop.

Idbatterim

Dublin airport is currently handing the same amount of passengers as Manchester airport, our numbers are up 15% in july, year on year, theirs are up 6%...

Grandeeod

Idbatterim wrote: »

Dublin airport is currently handing the same amount of passengers as Manchester airport, our numbers are up 15% in july, year on year, theirs are up 6%...

Yes. But Manchester has a public transport system that serves the city and environs to a better level than Dublin. The population is massive. It's airport connection is totally irrelavent. This preoccupation with Dublin airport will inevitably lead to a lot of money spent on "connecting" it, while north Dublin in general will benefit very little. This is not an "airport" issue alone.

jd

Sam Russell wrote: »

I do not get why the Clongriffin spur would stop the MN project. The spur gives rapid connection to CC and strengthens the need for DU.

MN is a major transport requirement for Dublin North and Swords. It would help if it were Dart compatible so a Dart network could be developed. Extending it to UCD and onwards would make a huge benefit as it adds another journey developer.

But it is better to do something now than wait another decade. Interest rates are rising soon.

The Sunday Times mentions the spur being towards DA and then Swords. (HR2 in study doc). What would that do for metro? I'm worried it would be HR2 and no DU!

Idbatterim

would there be the option for CIE if its dart or RPA etc, to build massive park and ride and charge for it for airport parking, so drop car there, simply have a stop for it and then next stop is the airport etc?

As i dont subscribe to the sunday times, this is all I could get on it...

PASCHAL DONOHOE, the transport minister, has indicated he favours a heavy rail link to Dublin airport over Luas, Metro or rapid bus transit.

The Dublin Central TD said the capacity of the system and the speed of the trip to the airport and north Co Dublin will be key priorities next month when he asks the cabinet to support one of six airport transit systems shortlisted by the National Transport Authority (NTA).

Donohoe said he could not identify his “lead option” because design and costing details were still being completed, but the link to the airport and the town of Swords would require high passenger capacity and a journey time from the city that is quicker “than any other option that could be available”.

could someone please post the full article here? Thank god it appears to be heavy rail though and not luas...

cgcsb

DARTu and an DART spur to the airport plus BRT routes would be a great outcome.

The DART spur doesn't dramatically impact a future metro n. Rather it'll provide a heavy rail link that'd benefit rail access from the regions. A quick change from a train from Belfast to the airport would be super.

wouldn't do much for Dubliners trying to access the airport but that's where a future metro north comes in