Fingal / North Dublin Transport Study

Lenton Lane

Lenton Lane wrote: »

If that Irish Mail on Sunday report that Luas to the airport is what will be delivered at the expense of a heavy rail link from Clongriffin then the officials in the Department of Transport have confirmed that they are truly stupid and shortsighted beyond words.

They can't be that stupid ??, surely! I'd hope its a delaying tactic until they eventually get the money to build Metro North.

Lenton Lane

[Deleted User] wrote: »

They can't be that stupid ??, surely! I'd hope its a delaying tactic until they eventually get the money to build Metro North.

We're taking about a delay of 10 years I'd say.

Idbatterim

Who knows what they are thinking! Simply come out and say we can't afford the right option now if they don't want to do anything, but don't totally f**k it up... Why aren't they borrowing the money from EU investment fund? I think it's purely political, there is so little for them to give away in an election year. The media and outside Dublin would have a field day with it... Resecure power the get the right thing done early in the term...

1huge1

Lenton Lane wrote: »

If that Irish Mail on Sunday report that Luas to the airport is what will be delivered at the expense of a heavy rail link from Clongriffin then the officials in the Department of Transport have confirmed that they are truly stupid and shortsighted beyond words.

Not saying that it might not eventually be true, but I don't take much heed of what a tabloid says.

We will find out towards the end of this month one way or the other, when the planning permission for DU runs out (correct?).

Grandeeod

Despite it being a tabloid, the writing is on the wall.

DU and MN are products of the previous admin. FG in opposition did all they could do to sideline DU. They embraced the PPT, but not in a manner that was respectful to what the PPT could offer. Rather they saw it as a pitiful alternative to DU. I'm delighted that the PPT is on the agenda, but this FG lead Government is carrying out all it objected to over 10 years ago. They have history and its a poor history when it comes to rail transport.

That said any FF admin will only promise on the basis of prosperity which they only witnessed once. They were in fact responsible for closing down half of the rail network in the 60s/70s. FF in prosperous Government spent millions on consultants and talk, talk, talk. What did they deliver? Very little.

Bottom line? We aren't capable of big rail projects let alone any form of integrated planning of basic public transport. Why? Politics and all that goes with it.

Schadenfreudia

Frankly, FG/Labour simply don't deliver infrastructure - not since the Shannon Scheme!

Schadenfreudia

Grandeeod wrote: »

That said any FF admin will only promise on the basis of prosperity which they only witnessed once. They were in fact responsible for closing down half of the rail network in the 60s/70s. FF in prosperous Government spent millions on consultants and talk, talk, talk. What did they deliver? Very little.
.

Firstly I must state that I am NOT a FF supporter :rolleyes:

But they delivered a national motorway network, two Luas lines, the DART, Busaras (back in the day).

Much of the rail network was hopelessly uneconomic and will serve far better as "Greenways".

FG/Lab never delivered anything in terms of transport infrastructure.

Zilch.

markpb

Grandeeod wrote: »

Bottom line? We aren't capable of big rail projects let alone any form of integrated planning of basic public transport. Why? Politics and all that goes with it.

I'm not sure that's true. Public transport just isn't a priority with the public or with politicians so it doesn't happen.

Grandeeod

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

Firstly I must state that I am NOT a FF supporter :rolleyes:

But they delivered a national motorway network, two Luas lines, the DART, Busaras (back in the day).

Much of the rail network was hopelessly uneconomic and will serve far better as "Greenways".

FG/Lab never delivered anything in terms of transport infrastructure.

Zilch.

I think we are on the same page...but....if we break down what you have said...

The Motorway network. Yes they over ruled the NRA and their two plus one/bypass solution. No problem there. Ireland a is a brilliantly smaller country due to it.

DART...They forced CIE to borrow for it, while using the actual money for something else. They also stalled it with Haugheys dream of Temple Bar being more akin to his favourite love nest that was the Paris left bank.

Luas...FF lost funding. Delayed the project due to BS about the underground/Overground issue.

Bus Aras...well we are going back to a different era that the DART could even relate too.

I guess I'm saying that FF delivered something, but like you say FG/LAB delivered nothing. However, we must accept that all parties have failed to deliver anything tangible and failed when it came to the really big projects.

Grandeeod

markpb wrote: »

I'm not sure that's true. Public transport just isn't a priority with the public or with politicians so it doesn't happen.

Leave out the election aspect. Think more about good governence. So long as we elect politicians on the basis of local issues, big public transport projects will never happen. In fact public transport will never happen. I said this before and I'll say it again.....the majority of our parliament are from rural Ireland. The car is king there. Thats all they know.

monument

I'm not a supporter of any of the current large parties, but you have to remember:

A lot of what the parties did or did not deliver is down to one lot managing to stay in government for a very long time, while the other lot only generally have been in government for short bursts after things have gone wrong.

cgcsb

I don't think it's possible for the luas plan to go ahead. The people mover thing, the future tunnel with an extremely expensive mined station at Jervis will make it more expensive than Metro North, while delivering more than double the journey time, less capacity and poor connectivity.

Also the plans we've seen so far seem to indicate the luas breaking off before broombridge and NOT connecting to the Maynooth line. If it were anywhere else in Europe and a transport planner suggesting building a tram that passes under a busy commuter line and NOT including a station to change at, s/he'd just be taken out and shot.

cgcsb

given the lack of news today I'd expect the mail story yesterday was just a bit of tabloid tat. I hope anyway.

Zebra3

cgcsb wrote: »

I don't think it's possible for the luas plan to go ahead. The people mover thing, the future tunnel with an extremely expensive mined station at Jervis will make it more expensive than Metro North, while delivering more than double the journey time, less capacity and poor connectivity.

Also the plans we've seen so far seem to indicate the luas breaking off before broombridge and NOT connecting to the Maynooth line. If it were anywhere else in Europe and a transport planner suggesting building a tram that passes under a busy commuter line and NOT including a station to change at, s/he'd just be taken out and shot.

All this makes more concerned that they are actually serious about it.... :mad:

Idbatterim

So depressingly predictable.

Luas Airport won't be built either.

lets hope it isnt! I have said it before, they are trying to get something done on the cheap and I think in another year or two gridlock, dublin airport booming numbers and improved state finances, will force the issue an adequate solution. If FG shaft us on this and I voted for them last time round, I wont forget it...

I may email a few local northside papers later, mention the sundayworld or whatever its called article and suggest an article on north dublin being shafted by a cheap - previously judged not fit for purpose scheme, despite decades of poor rail connectivity etc. What makes it more laughable is this dublin airport city development that has resurfaced today according to papers, the exploding airport numbers. This luas sideshow is a smokescreen or an unbelievable waste of time...

murphaph

Of course we all know it's not a case of North Dublin being shafted but Greater Dublin and even beyond. Sadly people in Dublin can be every bit as parochial as our country cousins and unless we live within 5 minutes walk of a proposed station we think it's of no benefit to us.

Victor

Off-topic and/or inflammatory posts deleted.

Moderator

jd

Looks like DU shelved and Dublin gets a tram to the airport

Proposals for the highly ambitious Dart underground project are set to be parked..
But sources have indicated that the proposed €4bn project will be "sacrificed" due to funding constraints and concern among some ministers that the capital plan will be perceived as focusing too heavily on Dublin...
Mr Donohoe is now expected to be given the green light for the expansion of the Luas between Dublin city centre and the airport..

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/underground-dart-plan-sacrificed-for-other-capital-projects-31509205.html

Lenton Lane

jd wrote: »

Looks like DU shelved and Dublin gets a tram to the airport



http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/underground-dart-plan-sacrificed-for-other-capital-projects-31509205.html

As feared. A typical Irish stop gap that will cost the state dearly in the long run.

jd

What'll happen now is there'll be a sh!tstorm because of the tunnel under Glasnevin cemetery, or they decide to go Broombridge -Finglas - Airport!!

Van.Bosch

jd wrote: »

What'll happen now is there'll be a sh!tstorm because of the tunnel under Glasnevin cemetery, or they decide to go Broombridge -Finglas - Airport!!

Yes but if this was the right route they should go ahead anyway.

As stated though by others, this is a cheapo option which delivers very poorly. If this option is chosen I think the people of swords would be best served if it stopped at the airport, as if it goes on to swords, they will be deemed to have a solution. This solution will take ages to get to town.

I actually think this would be a great project but only if DART spur and MN were already built

Amirani

Horrendous decision to prioritise this Luas extension over Dart Underground. Makes no sense whatsoever.

Lenton Lane

Van.Bosch wrote: »

Yes but if this was the right route they should go ahead anyway.

As stated though by others, this is a cheapo option which delivers very poorly. If this option is chosen I think the people of swords would be best served if it stopped at the airport, as if it goes on to swords, they will be deemed to have a solution. This solution will take ages to get to town.

I actually think this would be a great project but only if DART spur and MN were already built

Exactly. It's even more staggering a decision when you consider the Benefit Cost Ratio of the Airport rail link was very high. I don't have the figures to hand right now but they clearly showed that the money would be well spent. Swords is the other big loser in this likely scenario, and meanwhile the DAA announce a massive development without even barely adequate infrastructure to support it.

What a strange country we are.

Idbatterim

So we don't have the money, but we do have several hundred million to waste on the bull**** Luas option?! Then doing nothing is the best option for the time being...

I'm writing to him lAter, it's beyond a joke. Dublin shouldn't get an underground line, because Galway and cork won't get one. I wonder does London adopt the same attitude and not build them because berminghan and Manchester don't have plans for one either. Dublin funds being siphoned off is ok, but we can't accept anything in return? They view it as the pot of gold to simply win votes in the rest of the country... I'm livid!

Idbatterim

jd wrote: »

What'll happen now is there'll be a sh!tstorm because of the tunnel under Glasnevin cemetery, or they decide to go Broombridge -Finglas - Airport!!

Great if there are protests etc we can hop onboard with the , "it's a joke of a solution position". Which I will...

aliveandkicking

I feel physically sick. I just can't believe the stupidity of it. Dart Underground was a do minimum in the Fingal/North Dublin Study. All of the assessed options presumed DU would be built. I can't believe they are shelving it instead of proceeding with the CPOs and delaying the actual construction for another few years when there will hopefully be more money. Not proceeding with the CPOs now and protecting the existing planning is every bit as short sighted as closing the Harcourt and Broadstone lines was decades ago.

Idbatterim

The Luas cannot hope of carrying the numbers. I thought the dart spur to airport and onto swords , with Luas to airport would have been compromise...

Brian CivilEng

Feel like I've been punched in the gut. Expected another deferral, but this is scorched earth policy. We can't afford it now, so we can never have it.

cgcsb

Surely that's not democratic. The public consultations gave a series of options and they were based on the assumption of DART underground being in place by the time of the development. Indeed some of the options depended on DART underground being in place.

Can the consultation process be challenged?

cgcsb

Also will there be a detailed route consultation?
If so perhaps the route can be changed to make the best of a bad situation:

Instead of a tunnel under Glasnevin, tunnel between St Mobhi Road and Royal Canal Bank, put the route through the park there and join it to BXD at the top of Dominick street, with provision for a new interchange station at crossguns bridge. That way the curves are reduced, stops are reduced, you'd easily shave 10 minutes off the journey and include an interchange with the Maynooth line. The extra costs would be 1 underground station and a few extra metres of tunnel, i.e. not that much.

Also get a better deal for the airport station instead of that people mover rubbish.

With all that done, it's not Metro North, but you could probably still get from Swords to the north end of the City Centre in about the same time. You'd have a high degree of segregation.