Fingal / North Dublin Transport Study

Bray Head

lxflyer wrote: »

I'm sorry, but you are seriously misrepresenting the reality here.

The primary cause of the failure of the AerDART bus was the fact that it launched just before the DASH project, which included the repeated closure of the DART line due to the platform extensions.

This caused serious revenue issues for the company as during its peak period for leisure travellers, the weekend, the bus company had no services to operate.

I take your point. I am working from memory of over a decade ago. I used it a few times and remember passenger numbers in single figures.

But why hasn't someone opened a similar service since?

Brian CivilEng

Howth Junction was the wrong station anyway with all its stairs and confusion as to whether the next train is from the Howth or Malahide platform.

Clontarf Road station is almost as close to the airport as Howth junction using the port tunnel. But I reckon a bus that just shuttled between the airport and Connolly station (not halfway down Talbot street like the 747), would be the best option for a rail connection.

Heck, a single ticket for the 747 and luas, plus slightly increased frequency to The Point Depot (15min journey time through the tunnel) and you have a de facto BRT.

LXFlyer

Well you can already get a DART/747 Integrated ticket to the airport.

Banjoxed

Idbatterim wrote: »

I take it the bus would be there when you got off the Dart and there was no messing around? I dont know how attractive that is, people hate arsing around, if you could go direct without the bus, it would be more attractive...

I tried the Aerdart twice and frankly, if you wanted a bus to fail, Howth Junction was exactly the place you'd choose as a terminus. Waiting around in an area with a dangerous feel to it, while hidden from view while carrying baggage? No wonder it went under.

Brian CivilEng

lxflyer wrote: »

Well you can already get a DART/747 Integrated ticket to the airport.

Means nothing if the connection isn't convenient. If the shuttle bus actually stopped inside the train shed its mean the world of difference.

Try get a 747 from the airport to Connolly at 5pm. 5mins t1 to t2. 3 - 10 mins loading at t2. 12mins airport roundabout to the Point Depot. Fine so far.

Then 10 - 15 mins to Sheriff St. Upper where the bus waits around 3mins right beside the entrance to Connolly as it turns on to Amiens St. You then turn right onto Talbot St, and stop 100m down the street. At which point you have to walk back up the road, wait to cross Amiens St and return to where your bus waited 5mins previously. Walk up to platform 7 and miss your Dart by 30s.

I made a graph. I make a lot of graphs.(NERD)

Sam Russell

MJohnston wrote: »

I'll be honest, since Terminal 2 properly opened, I've never once seen bad traffic at the airport. Any delays to airport buses are likely to happen between the city centre and entering the Port Tunnel.

The Aircoach starts at terminal 1. There is a row of bus stops for Aircoach, another group across the way for Dublin Bus 747, and a whole bus station way across the car park for other buses. No live signs to tell the passengers which bus is at which bay and when it will leave. They have them for planes, so they have the technology.

So, Aircoach bus arrives at stop. Loads passengers. Bus departs and circles the airport, queues to get into lane because it is not free-flow to get to Terminal 2. Loads passengers, and departs and circles the airport once again. Queues again to get across the roundabout, and queues at lights to get onto M1. Even with little traffic, it takes nearly 10 mins to get to this point - 3.5 km in distance, but only 1.5 km directly. On a train, you would be at Clongriffin by now.

I call that mannic.

liam24

aliveandkicking wrote: »

If we are to get Metro North without DART Underground it is vital that an interchange with the DART line is made. The original MN plan had an O'Connell Bridge station and another at Parnell Sq. The revised MN plan dropped both the O'Connell Bridge station and Parnell station in favour of a single station in the middle of O'Connell St. Now that DU has been shamefully scrapped MN now won't connect with the DART. This means there now HAS to be an interchange at Tara St. They should go back to the original O'Connell Bridge station plan and also have an underground tunnel linking to Tara St. If they have to drop the Parnell stop for cost reasons so be it. The Luas is filling that gap now anyway.

With the Phoenix Park Tunnel in operation it creates a potential interchange for the Kildare line with Metro at Drumcondra. Together with a Tara St interchange it means things could be linked up. It's not the optimal solution (DU would be) but it isn't awful either.

Looking at a map it seems reasonable to me that Tara street and the red luas could be interchanges with the same MN stop, but the station box would have to be placed under the river slightly to the east of the Rosie Hackett bridge, to enable exits into Tara street station and onto Abbey street, with a reasonable 100-150m walk along tunnels leading to each. The SSG stop also seems pretty pointless, so they could scrap that in favour of reinstating the Parnell Square stop, or even just eliminate both Parnell and SSG to save even more money.

donvito99

Aside from a decade of will they, won't they with regard to this project, is it not particularly scandalous that only a matter of weeks ago, the Gov favoured some sort of bollocks 'roided Luas under Glasnevin, only to renege on this in favour of a slimline Metro?

liam24

donvito99 wrote: »

Aside from a decade of will they, won't they with regard to this project, is it not particularly scandalous that only a matter of weeks ago, the Gov favoured some sort of bollocks 'roided Luas under Glasnevin, only to renege on this in favour of a slimline Metro?

The government never confirmed anything - they allowed it to be released by the media as a 'leak' in order to test the response, and basically in order to allow online forums and journalists to explain to them why it was a load of rubbish, which they apparently had trouble figuring out for themselves.

Bray Head

The Government has not decided anything yet apart from the announcement on DU.

Various groups with differing interests within government are pushing for their preferred solutions behind the scenes. This is how this government makes policy. Very little formal debate happens at the cabinet table any more. Things get decided beforehand and cabinet gives seal of approval.

I have no specific knowledge but I would suspect the final decisions are not quite made yet.

Idbatterim

The Government has not decided anything yet apart from the announcement on DU.

Various groups with differing interests within government are pushing for their preferred solutions behind the scenes. This is how this government makes policy. Very little formal debate happens at the cabinet table any more. Things get decided beforehand and cabinet gives seal of approval.

I have no specific knowledge but I would suspect the final decisions are not quite made yet.

this may well be the case, if it is, Donohue should insist that nothing is built, until we can afford something fit for purpose! I am not interested in those idiots, providing something, just to boost their re-election chances...

McAlban

Idbatterim wrote: »

this may well be the case, if it is, Donohue should insist that nothing is built, until we can afford something fit for purpose! I am not interested in those idiots, providing something, just to boost their re-election chances...

True, But the General Consensus out there even from Mupptes like Dan White is that PT needs investment. So these piecemeal solutions will be dripped out bit by bit. to show they Govt. (and the next and the Next) are investing and can take nice little photo ops.

I can honestly see us spending €6Bn or so on PT for the Dublin Region over the Next ten years and have nothing to show but a Luas Spur and some BRT's.

Off to read those new guidelines on Lobbying... because now I'm Pissed!

Banjoxed

Bray Head wrote: »

The Government has not decided anything yet apart from the announcement on DU.

Various groups with differing interests within government are pushing for their preferred solutions behind the scenes. This is how this government makes policy. Very little formal debate happens at the cabinet table any more. Things get decided beforehand and cabinet gives seal of approval.

I have no specific knowledge but I would suspect the final decisions are not quite made yet.

Noel Whelan's article in the IT today lifts a bit of the veil on those decisions, where he cites a senior mandarin coming into bat for the Government on GDP spending at one of the summer schools.

The reality is that Irish politics is full of people of limited intellect who have just enough smarts to negotiate the rat traps of internal party rivalry, make a few smart remarks to the press and get re-elected, but haven't enough intelligence to master a brief. Rarely, a politician is smarter than his civil servants but oddly enough they tend to get shafted.

random_guy

markpb wrote: »

There's no point spending €200m (or any money) adding a rail link that provides little value. It won't be faster or more reliable than an express bus from the city centre, it will be used by very few travellers from outside the city. It won't be faster or more convenient to anyone living on an Aircoach route and it's of use to very few employees because of the area it serves.

Instead of saying that we need a rail link to the airport, ask yourself who will actually use it and what value does it add to the city.

Also ask yourself if Connolly and the bridge are at full capacity, which is more useful - trains to Maynooth/Howth or trains to the airport because the airport link may mean less trains to one of those.

Also, I'd be very curious to know how anyone plans on getting a train station at the airport without going underground. If you go underground, your plan for using diesel train goes out the window because of ventilation issues.

Just a point on that, Frankfurt Airport is served by DMUs running underground.
It is possible to do.

Ren2k7

So now OMN is a dead cert for the govt's CAPEX programme. Some good news though it would have been better had the original MN been the plan adopted along with DU.

Schadenfreudia

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/editorial/link-to-dublin-airport-and-swords-must-concentrate-on-more-economical-options-1.2343440

The IT manges to sound pompous and Neanderthal in the same breath.

The Irish Times editorial on the 8th September when "Government sources" suggested MN was suspended to be replaced by a Luas line....

Whatever the outcome of this review, the Minister should make clear that the wildly expensive and enormously disruptive Metro North is no longer on the agenda. Merely shelving the project, leaving open the prospect of dusting it down at some stage in the future, is not sufficient. There are other, more realistic ways of serving Dublin Airport and Swords.

And the Irish Times editorial today.....

Coverage of the public transport network – which the recent OECD survey on Ireland noted was below the European average – has been boosted with the decision to establish a metro link from Dublin city centre to Dublin Airport, and on to Swords.

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/editorial/astute-timing-on-spending-1.2371885

These f*ckers are beyond belief - serious paper? My ars* :mad:

Grandeeod

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

The Irish Times editorial on the 8th September when "Government sources" suggested MN was suspended to be replaced by a Luas line....




And the Irish Times editorial today.....



http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/editorial/astute-timing-on-spending-1.2371885

These f*ckers are beyond belief - serious paper? My ars* :mad:

A lot of mainstream print media journo's are like politicians. The will chop and change, sell their souls and basically do anything to get some copy. As for editors...they tend to be worse and the driving force behind the low level of output, particularly in PT matters.

Schadenfreudia

The IT editors must be reading this thread!

Editorial today:

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/editorial/decision-on-metro-north-in-dublin-confirms-narrow-thinking-1.2374668

If the French had dithered like we do over major investments in public transport, they would not now be enjoying the benefits of TGV high-speed trains, the RER commuter rail network in Paris, and sleek light rail systems in cities as diverse as Bordeaux, Grenoble, Nantes and Strasbourg. The big difference between France and Ireland is that French governments of all political hues took a long-term view of public transport projects, while our politicians are driven by short-term considerations.

Some mouthful coming from Dithering and Objecting Central!

Dart Underground, the single most important strategic investment project, has been shelved for a second time by the present Government, with Minister for Transport Paschal Donohoe telling the National Transport Authority to devise a cheaper alternative. Metro North, a highly questionable scheme to run a Luas line largely underground between St Stephen’s Green and Dublin Airport/Swords, is back on the agenda, after being shelved in 2011.

And where was the Irish Times campaign for the single most important strategic investment project (DU) in the month before the CPO date passed and the whole project was set back at least a decade?

Absolutely nowhere!

Earlier, the Minister toyed with the notion of extending the Luas Cross City line from Broombridge to the airport, tunnelling under Glasnevin Cemetery, even though light rail is inherently unsuitable for the purpose.

Indeed, but a "solution" which the IT endorsed as recently as the 8th of September!

If the Times cannot get serious about public transport and report the issues in a serious and informed (and timely) manner then maybe they should just butt out?

Over the past 20 years they have clearly been part of the problem rather than part of the solution.

Idbatterim

I wrote a letter into the times yesterday afternoon, they have a few on this subject up at the moment. Another poster here has made a recent post, that the "saving" on DU for the revised version, may be as low as €300,000,000 or so, what will the design, planning, legal action, inflation in construction and property prices (for the CPO) do to this figure? Its the same with metro north, we have two excellent project, good to go and considering pushing them back years for inferior options, waiting until dublin grind to a halt again, to "save" well the irish version of it, nothing and 300,000,000 or 400,000,000 in the scheme of things, is an absolute irrelevance. Most of the extra spend on any scheme will end up back with the exchequer anyway. So it can only be deduced that this is a total smokescreen, political cowardice and they simply want to pass the parcel...

I can only hope that FG IF they are the senior part next year, are using this as a ploy. Simply regain power and then give it the go ahead, if they dont have the spine to do it now or are worried what the non Dubs will think!

From a guy who swore he would never vote FF again and voted FG in 2011, I am strongly considering giving FF a vote. They nearly delivered on the DU and MN scheme before the economy collapsed. FG are totally anti Dublin, why would we vote for them? What so they can cut some measly amount off the outrageous marginal income tax rate and think that is enough to buy us off. A few quid a week. While the housing crisis in dublin that they are doing nothing about, is eating majorly into our earnings every week!

murphaph

FF were the ones who abolished Dublin County Council. maybe FG would have abolished it even earlier if given the chance though. If Dubliners voted as a bloc then the whole political landscape would be vastly different.

Idbatterim

FF were the ones who abolished Dublin County Council. maybe FG would have abolished it even earlier if given the chance though. If Dubliners voted as a bloc then the whole political landscape would be vastly different.

it appeared to me that FF were less anti dublin than fg...

liam24

Idbatterim wrote: »

From a guy who swore he would never vote FF again and voted FG in 2011, I am strongly considering giving FF a vote. They nearly delivered on the DU and MN scheme before the economy collapsed. FG are totally anti Dublin, why would we vote for them? What so they can cut some measly amount off the outrageous marginal income tax rate and think that is enough to buy us off. A few quid a week. While the housing crisis in dublin that they are doing nothing about, is eating majorly into our earnings every week!

I always said they'd get back in at the next election. I never overestimate the intelligence of the Irish electorate, and you are an example of the stupidity they rely on.

Idbatterim

I always said they'd get back in at the next election. I never overestimate the intelligence of the Irish electorate, and you are an example of the stupidity they rely on.

FG have been poor, maybe its time to simply vote the senior party out of government every term, until they change the system, at which stage they will be rewarded with another term, any better suggestions, which are actually achievable at this stage, I would like to hear!

FF delivered the port tunnel and I reckon the DU and Mn would be done now were it not for the crash. They are far less anti Dublin than FG, thats for sure...

D.L.R.

Idbatterim wrote: »

FF delivered the port tunnel and I reckon the DU and Mn would be done now were it not for the crash. They are far less anti Dublin than FG, thats for sure...

Rubbish, remember decentralisation? Ghost estates in the middle of nowhere? Draining billions out of Dublin every year for rural white elephants. Ghost motorways all over the place. Get real.

Not saying FG are any better, but FF better for Dublin? Please. 14 years, massive boom and we got two disconnected tram lines and an orbital motorway that had to be built twice. Cowboys ted.

MJohnston

I reckon FF's infrastructure records should be looked at in the context of what they were receiving in EU money intended to directly build said projects. Forget them, and forget FG too, they're both parties with their heads in the sand and belong to the past.

Banjoxed

MJohnston wrote: »

I reckon FF's infrastructure records should be looked at in the context of what they were receiving in EU money intended to directly build said projects. Forget them, and forget FG too, they're both parties with their heads in the sand and belong to the past.

Sure if FF's buddies could make money on any project they'd be built long ago. They couldn't be any bigger Cowboys if they wore Stetsons and shouted Yee Hah. As for Fine Gael, they have run for cover and hid under the skirts of the senior civil service, who never took public transport after they left school.