2015 TI Race Calendar

DaveR1

mossym wrote: »

just leave it an arbitrary ranking

Calling it an arbitrary ranking system is a bit crazy.

Go to the National series from last year, choose random people down along the list, go even further to people who have 300-400 points. The race scoring is actually pretty consistent, most people with 5-8 points between their best and worst scoring race. Of course a few races end up been worth more points than others, but not enough to bring someone who should be outside the top 20 into the top 8. Likewise even choosing bad races will not bring you from the top 8 to outside the top 20. It is a fairly accurate scoring system + or - a few places but nothing dramatic and therefore I believe any athlete who makes it into the top 8 / 10 in next years Nat series, whatever TI decide, will deserve their upgrade.

Even if you want to argue top spot of the National series. Tomasz best race scored 129, his worst 122. 7 point difference. Chris was 127 and 117, 10 point difference, Aaron 126 and 121, 5 point difference. I accept that if they all did different races the scores may have been different and the overall position may have changed. But the top 3 in last years Nat series would have remained the top 3. Same way top 8 would possibly have stayed top 8.

From what I can see it actually seems a very fair an accurate system.

mossym

DaveR1 wrote: »

Calling it an arbitrary ranking system is a bit crazy.

yeah, probably is, fair comment.

rooneyjm

mossym wrote: »

fair enough, call a pig a pig then and just leave it an arbitrary ranking and don't declare a winner/2nd/3rd from it. placings don;t matter and it's just about getting more people to do more races.

You try tell next years NS age group winners that there not the winners and its only arbitrary. I bet they'll be chuffed to bits to win it wont give two sh!tes if ZICO thinks its a joke.

mossym

rooneyjm wrote: »

You try tell next years NS age group winners that there not the winners and its only arbitrary. .

i'm sure they'd enjoy that just as little as being constantly told "sure you won it, but that's only cause you never faced off against x, y, and z. "

maybe it's not said to their face, but it was talked about on here, and this was hardly the only place.

arbitrary was a bad word, already acknowledged that.

rooneyjm

Its the "B" Championship but the winners of the "B" Championship will celebrate the success as much as the winners of the "A".

mossym

rooneyjm wrote: »

Its the "B" Championship but the winners of the "B" Championship will celebrate the success as much as the winners of the "A".

i live on the clare tipp border. 2013, clare win the all ireland, all you hear for a year is that it doesn't really count, never had to face tipp or kilkenny so it was an easier win than it should have been. wouldn;t have done it if they had to face one of them.

is the winner the winner no matter what? yes, and well done to them. they should celebrate.

is the win all the sweeter if they've beaten all comers and remove all doubt? in my mind yes. and doing that would make a better NS. i think the moves will make a better NS for most. still think it could be better.

mossym

okay, moving away from the format for a minute.

seems like non NS series races are starting to appear on the TI website. very rough, some of the NS races aren't there yet

zico10

rooneyjm wrote: »

You try tell next years NS age group winners that there not the winners and its only arbitrary. I bet they'll be chuffed to bits to win it wont give two sh!tes if ZICO thinks its a joke.

They can celebrate all they want, but if they've never raced the guy who finished second, then they were never in the same contest.
I'm commenting on the structure of the NS, nothing else. If the super series for the category 1 athletes was structured the same way, I'd call that a joke as well.
Any sporting competition under the structure of next year's NS would be a joke, it wouldn't matter who was involved.
If you want to take offence to that, then there's no more explaining I can do.

BTH

mossym wrote: »

okay, moving away from the format for a minute.

seems like non NS series races are starting to appear on the TI website. very rough, some of the NS races aren't there yet

Lanesboro Tri on the same day as the Galway aquathon, my new home race vs my old one. Conflicted.

mossym

BTH wrote: »

Lanesboro Tri on the same day as the Galway aquathon, my new home race vs my old one. Conflicted.

thought that would have been a straight forward choice for you. swim must be going well?

BTH

mossym wrote: »

thought that would have been a straight forward choice for you. swim must be going well?

Swimming relatively well alright. There's been a few sub 6 400s mid session, and a sub 12 800 so can't complain. No proper TT though.

BTH

mossym wrote: »

thought that would have been a straight forward choice for you. swim must be going well?

And for the aquathon this year I was able to set up transition, head back to the house and clean up after breakfast and relax for a while before heading to the race start. So so handy.

Chartsengrafs

So now that we know the NS is absolute rubbish... who's actually planning on doing it in 2015??

I am anyway, trying to decide on which Olympic distance races to enter. Hope to do 5 races next season so may as well make them all NS.

mossym

BTH wrote: »

And for the aquathon this year I was able to set up transition, head back to the house and clean up after breakfast and relax for a while before heading to the race start. So so handy.

hang on, it's july. i can make that choice for you, you won't be doing either..:)

Kander

Basster wrote: »

So now that we know the NS is absolute rubbish... who's actually planning on doing it in 2015??

I am anyway, trying to decide on which Olympic distance races to enter. Hope to do 5 races next season so may as well make them all NS.

Heh I will be giving it ago this year. I was never able to get the minimum done in the past due to work. New format works for me

mirrormatrix

zico10 wrote: »

I thought the NS was a joke because the athletes seldom if ever had to face each other, (next year this is even more likely) not because such a small percentage of TI members had completed it. TI need to incentivise people to race the NS. They're not doing that, people will just complete it by default.

Expanding the number of possible races that you can score points in will undoubtedly increase the number of people who complete the series, but it doesn't make it anymore successful in my eyes. By your definition of success TI could have stipulated one only needs to do two races to complete the series, and they would have been even more successful still.

Just out of interest Zico, why do you feel that the NS should solely be catering for the Cat 1 (or wannabe Cat 1) athletes? By reducing the number of NS races at Cat 2 and below, what you would achieve is to make the NS only accessible for people

a) who are lucky enough to get entry into these races
b) with money to burn on petrol every weekend travelling the length and breadth of the country doing every race on the NS calendar

I think what TI are doing is a step in the right direction. They have given the Cat 1 athletes the ability to compete with others at the highest level head to head with the introduction of the super series. There is less possibility to cherry pick races in this series.

However, for the Cat 2 athletes and below, they have (in my opinion)correctly realised that people will fall away from the sport after one-off events if they don't motivate them with some sort of goal. For me, this is what the NS is: a way to encourage people to take part in more races and to give some sort of fun comparison vs other athletes. At this lower level there will be much less interest in running around the country competing in every race going because a lot of folk (myself included) really just do this because it's good fun.

I can only speak for myself, but I have always seen 5 NS races as a barrier to entry, even with the number of races on the TI calendar. Four races feels significantly more achievable, and with the increased number of NS races the chances that a few of these will be near to me is significantly increased.

I get what you're saying about it not being fair for people trying to get up to Cat 1 level, but if you are an athlete for example whose points are so tight that you're relying on picking the right races to qualify as Cat 1, are you really going to be making any sort of an impact the following year? Also, there are very few people who will end up in this situation; should the NS cater for those few above all else?

mossym

well put post, and a nice reminder while we might be pointing out the flaws in the NS that affect a few at the pointy end, that the changes will improve things for a lot in terms of competing in the NS.

peter kern

i think the solutiion to all this is to make 4 or so nat sereis races qualying races for cat 1 and you have to have done 2 of them if you want to go cat 1
zico will be happy and the rest of the people as you wrote very well , will be happy, everybody wins.

mirrormatrix wrote: »

Just out of interest Zico, why do you feel that the NS should solely be catering for the Cat 1 (or wannabe Cat 1) athletes? By reducing the number of NS races at Cat 2 and below, what you would achieve is to make the NS only accessible for people

a) who are lucky enough to get entry into these races
b) with money to burn on petrol every weekend travelling the length and breadth of the country doing every race on the NS calendar

I think what TI are doing is a step in the right direction. They have given the Cat 1 athletes the ability to compete with others at the highest level head to head with the introduction of the super series. There is less possibility to cherry pick races in this series.

However, for the Cat 2 athletes and below, they have (in my opinion)correctly realised that people will fall away from the sport after one-off events if they don't motivate them with some sort of goal. For me, this is what the NS is: a way to encourage people to take part in more races and to give some sort of fun comparison vs other athletes. At this lower level there will be much less interest in running around the country competing in every race going because a lot of folk (myself included) really just do this because it's good fun.

I can only speak for myself, but I have always seen 5 NS races as a barrier to entry, even with the number of races on the TI calendar. Four races feels significantly more achievable, and with the increased number of NS races the chances that a few of these will be near to me is significantly increased.

I get what you're saying about it not being fair for people trying to get up to Cat 1 level, but if you are an athlete for example whose points are so tight that you're relying on picking the right races to qualify as Cat 1, are you really going to be making any sort of an impact the following year? Also, there are very few people who will end up in this situation; should the NS cater for those few above all else?

zico10

peter kern wrote: »

i think the solutiion to all this is to make 4 or so nat sereis races qualying races for cat 1 and you have to have done 2 of them if you want to go cat 1
zico will be happy and the rest of the people as you wrote very well , will be happy, everybody wins.

It's not a requirement that TI keep me happy.
It's not the only solution, but what you propose should ensure the very best athletes get through, and thanks for finally acknowledging one of the points I was trying to make earlier.

@mirrormatrix
Thanks for your post. You make some very good points and I appreciate the civil manner in which you made them. My reply to you might be a long one which I don't have time for right now, but I'll answer you later on.

peter kern

Zico I think you focus too much on 50 cat 2 atheltes rather than thinking about 8000 cat 2 atheltes which really is the argument here ....whats works best for the majority of cat 2 atheltes .and 300 nat series finisher shows very clearly its not working for the majority of people and this is the main thing Ti has to think about .they have to worry how do we get 1000 people to fisnih nat sereis
and i think they have thought about that well

if you are somebody that will have an impact in cat 1 i am sure there will be no problem for them to get cat1 status and dodnt think its that important in the long term who is the 98th finsher in cat one or weather there is a guy racing in cat 2 that could finish 78th in cat 1 )
thats really a minor issue in the big picture i think.

at the same time i agree that there is cat 2 atheltes that want to race the best cat 2 athletes and thats what nat champs should be for . i would really argue nat champs should only be allowed to enter if you have reached a certain level
but thtats not a NS subject thats a national champ thread .

zico10 wrote: »

It's not a requirement that TI keep me happy.
It's not the only solution, but what you propose should ensure the very best athletes get through, and thanks for finally acknowledging one of the points I was trying to make earlier.

@mirrormatrix
Thanks for your post. You make some very good points and I appreciate the civil manner in which you made them. My reply to you might be a long one which I don't have time for right now, but I'll answer you later on.

DaveR1

zico10 wrote: »

It's not a requirement that TI keep me happy.
It's not the only solution, but what you propose should ensure the very best athletes get through, and thanks for finally acknowledging one of the points I was trying to make earlier.

The National Series as it currently stands will find the best athletes and they will get promoted. There is no need for 4 head to head races. As I said before, the top people will come out on top anyway, even if they race each other or not.

tunney

peter kern wrote: »

Zico I think you focus too much on 50 cat 2 atheltes rather than thinking about 8000 cat 2 atheltes which really is the argument here ....whats works best for the majority of cat 2 atheltes .and 300 nat series finisher shows very clearly its not working for the majority of people and this is the main thing Ti has to think about .they have to worry how do we get 1000 people to fisnih nat sereis
and i think they have thought about that well

The Christmas spirit is strong in you.

Ceepo

DaveR1 wrote: »

The National Series as it currently stands will find the best athletes and they will get promoted. There is no need for 4 head to head races. As I said before, the top people will come out on top anyway, even if they race each other or not.

If u race and win 4 n's races and let's say I do a different 4 races and win them and for good measure lets say Zico races a completely different 4 races and wins them.
It will be in the lap of the gods who has the most points. Which will determine who wins the NS

BTH

Ceepo wrote: »

If u race and win 4 n's races and let's say I do a different 4 races and win them and for good measure lets say Zico races a completely different 4 races and wins them.
It will be in the lap of the gods who has the most points. Which will determine who wins the NS

Flaw in you plan, neither DaveR1 nor Zico are eligible to complete for the NS.

Point stands, but what does it matter. This year you had a case of the NS winner never actually beating either of the others on the podium in a race, but still beating them in the series despite having actually raced them. it will be impossible for the same to happen in Cat 1 next year. If it happens again in the NS what does it matter, it's a second tier competition designed to encourage mass participation, not to find the best second tier athlete.

tunney

Are we all going to the Awards dinner for these next year?

tunney

tunney wrote: »

Are we all going to the Awards dinner for these next year?

I hope they serve beef.

Ceepo

BTH wrote: »

Flaw in you plan, neither DaveR1 nor Zico are eligible to complete for the NS.

Point stands, but what does it matter. This year you had a case of the NS winner never actually beating either of the others on the podium in a race, but still beating them in the series despite having actually raced them. it will be impossible for the same to happen in Cat 1 next year. If it happens again in the NS what does it matter, it's a second tier competition designed to encourage mass participation, not to find the best second tier athlete.

Ha ha I was only using them as an example.

So in summary, as a mass participation event it probably a great idea. As a competition it's a load of b@ll@x

tunney

Ceepo wrote: »

Ha ha I was only using them as an example.

So in summary, as a mass participation event it probably a great idea. As a competition it's a load of b@ll@x

And leaving out the most important thing. As a product for sale to advertisers its great

BTH

Ceepo wrote: »

Ha ha I was only using them as an example.

So in summary, as a mass participation event it probably a great idea. As a competition it's a load of b@ll@x

Some would argue this has always been the case. It's still a decent competition, and the top ten at the end of the year are going to be those to deserve to be there, but it can't be an exact science. It's not possible to be both a true competition and a mass participation series. The real competition will be Cat 1.

zico10

mirrormatrix wrote: »

Just out of interest Zico, why do you feel that the NS should solely be catering for the Cat 1 (or wannabe Cat 1) athletes?

I don't, and I'm certain I never said this. If I gave the impression this is what I think, then hopefully this reply will clarify my thoughts.

By reducing the number of NS races at Cat 2 and below, what you would achieve is to make the NS only accessible for people
a) who are lucky enough to get entry into these races

Do races genuinely sell out quicker just because they are NS? I'd say the majority don't. If there is a real issue with athletes meeting their quota of races, then TI should do something about this specific issue.
(People who are genuinely interested in the NS could apply for it, if this requires a minimal fee along with TI membership then so be it. A requirement for any race that wishes to be included in the NS, could be that a minimum number of spots must be reserved for NS athletes for a set period of time. If this time elapses and the spots haven't been filled, then the complaint you highlight would be redundant.)
Just to finish on this point, while I accept I might be wrong, I find it hard to believe any athlete was genuinely unable to meet the quota of races last year because all NS races filled up too quickly for them to register.

b) with money to burn on petrol every weekend travelling the length and breadth of the country doing every race on the NS calendar

I'm sorry but I don't buy this. I can't moan about there being no Ironman in Ireland for me to qualify for Kona from. Well I could, but it wouldn't change facts. Travelling is just another expense that goes with triathlon. Like I said in an earlier post in this thread, if you can't afford to do something, don't do it. Ireland is a tiny country anyway, just be glad it's not the national series in Russia you're competing in.

I think what TI are doing is a step in the right direction. They have given the Cat 1 athletes the ability to compete with others at the highest level head to head with the introduction of the super series. There is less possibility to cherry pick races in this series.

So do I, but why can't they do the same for the new NS? They could still cater for the people who are in it for the 'fun' and have a fair competition as well. I've no problem with races spread out across the country. But if we take it that the tri season is 5 months long, then that's approximately 20 weekends in which a NS race could be held. I think it's ridiculous that two NS races can take place on the same day, and I'd go so far as to say there shouldn't even be two NS races on the same weekend. This is especially true next year when two middle distance NS races, Tri an Mhí and The Lost Sheep, take place on a Saturday and are followed by two NS sprint races on the Sunday.

However, for the Cat 2 athletes and below, they have (in my opinion)correctly realised that people will fall away from the sport after one-off events if they don't motivate them with some sort of goal. For me, this is what the NS is: a way to encourage people to take part in more races and to give some sort of fun comparison vs other athletes. At this lower level there will be much less interest in running around the country competing in every race going because a lot of folk (myself included) really just do this because it's good fun.

I think people fall away from the sport anyway. I know people who joined 3D the same time I did, that aren't in the sport now. Had next year's NS been in place at any point over the years they were in the sport, I don't think it would have had any effect whatsoever on them leaving the sport, and I don't see it making any difference now.
Out of curiosity, why does the NS make racing tri any more fun for you? There must be plenty of TI sanctioned, local, non NS races you could do.
Also you mention the people who only race tri for 'fun' also having goals? Is this not a contradiction? If you want to compare yourself to others in the country, then the standards you use should in my mind at least stand up to some sort of scrutiny.

I can only speak for myself, but I have always seen 5 NS races as a barrier to entry, even with the number of races on the TI calendar. Four races feels significantly more achievable, and with the increased number of NS races the chances that a few of these will be near to me is significantly increased.

I've no idea of your personal circumstances, but I don't think five races was a huge number of races to expect from someone who was serious about a series of races. If it was reduced to any less than four, it would be stretching the definition of series. The new series might suit you and many others, but do you think the success of triathlon in Ireland depends on a set number of people completing the NS?

I get what you're saying about it not being fair for people trying to get up to Cat 1 level, but if you are an athlete for example whose points are so tight that you're relying on picking the right races to qualify as Cat 1, are you really going to be making any sort of an impact the following year? Also, there are very few people who will end up in this situation; should the NS cater for those few above all else?

No, but I don't see why the NS can't cater for them and everybody else without compromising the fairness of it.