RTE Primetime - Special needs people getting tortured in a facility

Panrich

mookishboy wrote: »

this is only the tip of the iceberg.
My partner works as a private care assistant.
The company she works for takes on Hse job's from time to time. from what she has said to me regarding the care assistants directly employed by the HSE is scary and very upsetting stuff. Service users are frequently left in soiled clothes because the Hse CA's " dont do changing clothes"
Care books are required to be updated by every CA that attends a service user. Hse Staff will not update care books and refuse to do so.
This prectice is common place throughout the midland area.
totally inhumane treatment

That was my main fear watching it. You sort of know that the focus will be fixed on this centre alone but hopefully this will send some sort of shockwave to others who might have something to hide.

JRant

monflat wrote: »

You can be assaulted by someone with an intellectual disability.

Why isn't it assault???

They cannot be charged for assault thou unless they show an understanding of their actions.

I know of a few cases where the gardai were involved in a case of assault.
Nothing was done but guards were called

It's not assault because they can't be held accountable for their actions. This is not something new and I would have thought fairly common knowledge.

You can certainly be injured by them and their carer may be responsible if they are being neglectful but it is never assault.

ColeTrain

Ace2007 wrote: »

Realistically the only way the HSE/Management can stand over the level of care in all these facilities would be to have each room on 24 hour surveillance to a central location in Ireland.

More than likely 90% of homes like this in Ireland are run the right way, but there is no way other than recording or first hand witness accounts that management can know about it. Some of the patients had no way of communicating.

Where are you getting that figure from? You'd be naive to think that imo.

monflat

JRant wrote: »

Have a read of my post again. I said a mentally diminished person. The judge in that case ruled he was mentally capable of standing trial. So in fact not bollix at all.

The correct terminology there would be a person with an intellectual disability.


It started out years ago as " the mentally retarded " this phrase still used in USA.
The mentally handicapped.
Then mentally impaired.

Intellectual disability is the term to describe people with low intellect in this present day.

Phoebas

Hellrazer wrote: »

They're probably sitting at home pissing themselves laughing at having gotten away with it and suspended on full pay and their identities kept under wraps.

That bloke in charge of the hses excuse was that due process had to be followed.Under most contracts gross misconduct is an instant dismissal not suspension with pay.No clearer case than gross misconduct than what these so called carers did.That minister should also resign aswell but we live in a country where politicians don't resign.
Absolute disgusting behaviour from people supposed to be caring for these people that can't look after themselves.

There would probably be grounds for sacking them on the spot, but the HSE need to follow their own normal procedures otherwise they could land themselves in trouble.
Imagine the uproar if they sacked them and were later found to have sacked them unfairly on a technicality.

The money isn't the most important thing here.

JRant

wprathead wrote: »

like majority here I am lost for words.

Now there is training there that could assist staff:
Client protection
Studio 3
Manual handling
FEDS
etc.

Hear th

But boils down to human DIGNITY!
The staff were treating the service users like objects that should stay on shelf.
Not allowed to even walk around, have to sit in uncomfortable positions.
It was torture.
I feel sick after watching it.
And angry. Way the manager was involved. And then the service user made apoligize to him.
My God what is wrong with these people..

Think the bit where showed staff smoking inside summed it up the culture in that setting - they felt they were the law and could do as they wish.

Going to bed now, havn't been this pissed off in quite a while:mad:

What they displayed was the complete opposite of Studio 3.

myshirt

Hellrazer wrote: »

They're probably sitting at home pissing themselves laughing at having gotten away with it and suspended on full pay and their identities kept under wraps.

That bloke in charge of the hses excuse was that due process had to be followed.Under most contracts gross misconduct is an instant dismissal not suspension with pay.No clearer case than gross misconduct than what these so called carers did.That minister should also resign aswell but we live in a country where politicians don't resign.
Absolute disgusting behaviour from people supposed to be caring for these people that can't look after themselves.

I had to have a strong whiskey after listening to that guy... unbelievable. In a righteous world, that man would be an accomplished road sweeper by now; not a man still bluffing his way onwards in an important position, in sheer defiance of failure. Unfettered, unchallenged, and salaried up to the eyeballs. If he was paid more than minimum wage, he'd be overpaid. And I know he is paid more than minimum wage.

Hellrazer

ColeTrain wrote: »

No chance, their identities will already be well known in the locality as Swinford wouldn't be a big place.

Regardless of whether they are known or not.If they can do this to a defenceless human being I doubt they actually give a **** about it.They are the type of people that probably care more about the fact they were caught rather than what they did.

Either way they need to be sacked now.without pay or pension entitlements.But hey they're hse employees and won't loose their pensions and will probably end up with a nice lump sum payoff knowing this country.

SpaceTime

Looks to me like the legacy of institutional abuse isn't a legacy at all, it's just been rebranded.

There's a culture of no accountability.

All I can say is I hope I never have a stroke, or become unable to look after myself as I couldn't trust the state's services.

That documentary shows a nasty side of Ireland that hasn't gone away.

JRant

monflat wrote: »

The correct terminology there would be a person with an intellectual disability.


It started out years ago as " the mentally retarded " this phrase still used in USA.
The mentally handicapped.
Then mentally impaired.

Intellectual disability is the term to describe people with low intellect in this present day.

Yes and it'll be labelled as something else in a couple of years from now. Have you a point?

Ace2007

ColeTrain wrote: »

Where are you getting that figure from? You'd be naive to think that imo.

Well i'd like to think that most homes are good out there, whatever figure you use will be pulled from the sky - you might say the majority of places are like that, but neither me nor you can prove otherwise.

jimgoose

myshirt wrote: »

I had to have a strong whiskey after listening to that guy... unbelievable. In a righteous world, that man would be an accomplished road sweeper by now; not a man still bluffing his way onwards in sheer defiance of failure, unfettered, unchallenged, and salaried up to the eyeballs. If he was paid more than minimum wage, he'd be overpaid. And I know he is paid more than minimum wage.

As far as I'm concerned the bastard should be in Port Laoise on porridge and hidings, with that Lynch wan in the cell beside his.

monflat

JRant wrote: »

It's not assault because they can't be held accountable for their actions. This is not something new and I would have thought fairly common knowledge.

You can certainly be injured by them and their carer may be responsible if they are being neglectful but it is never assault.

No but with the new capacity bill they may well be held accountable.

There is a big drive to move all individuals who live in congregated settings to the community.
In the community they can live in houses like you and me access services etc etc.

However with the capacity bill it's up to staff working in these places to help build the persons capacity and understanding of right and wrong.

Ok they may never be prosecuted as yet but there may come a time where someone with a mild intellectual disability assaults someone and is charged with it because they had the capacity to know what they were doing.

StevieNicksFan

Can you imagine not being able to communicate at all and being ordered to sit in a chair for 10 hours and not move? Not even to take a piss? If thats not torture I dont know what is. Forcefeeding? Do these scum not realise you can actually kill a person doing this, nevermind the humiliation inflicted on said resident. Its as if these 'carers' think of the residents as inhuman and treat them as such. Its just a complete power trip to an extreme level.

Now its important that we dont paint all homes with the same brush. I wanted to do some therapies that I am trained in with some residents in a local care home for adults with disabilities. I could never get them! It was actually quite frustrating tbh but great to see. They were never in the facility - away shopping, walking, special olympics, swimming, going out for lunch etc. They very often only came home to sleep. The way it should be.

Ace2007

Regarding the "manager", are you sure that was him in the clip - didn't look like someone on duty.

Also in the scale of offences what he actually did would probably not carry any sort of a sentence, and he could just play stupid about the rest of the stuff that went on.

retro:electro

Fuzzy Clam wrote: »

Im going to be shot for saying this but Duckcfc has a point. These people are extremely hard work. I only know this through casual contact with them many years ago. Never worked in the area. Its humans working with humans. I would love to see how some of the posters here would act in similar circumstances.
I couldn't do it, thats for sure.

Well lets be thankful you're not doing it so. And as for them being "hard work"; one service user was begging to be brought to the toilet, in so much distress that she thought they couldn't understand her so she put on the latex gloves they use in an attempt to communicate and articulate her point. She was met with "if ya died I wouldn't bring ya to the toilet". What's hard work or challenging about that? The woman couldn't do the most basic and fundamental part of her job and assist the client to the toilet. Deplorable primitive behaviour and I hope they are jailed.

MPFG

HSE is an unfit for purpose organisation that pays extravagant salaries to bureaucrats while providing no training, selection or management of care workers..If on the ground staff are to take the blame as they should then the HSE senior management should also be sacked and or prosecuted...HSE run this home and are ultimately reponsible for the care of the residents.People at the top on salaries of multiples of 100k should be held accountable ...

Also many of us who quite rightly bemoan the treatment of the vulnerable do nothing to contribute to ensuring they get the best care ..We would rather not see,,,turn away and leave the care jobs to the those with little choice of employment and who get the lowest wages and the worse working conditions..We are morally outraged but have a collective responsibility for 'having the empty slate' ..Reminds me of those who fell sorry for the sheep on the way to markey while sititng down to a lamb dinner. Its a terrible hypocrisy evident in modern society ...We will throw stones at these people but we wouldn't do the job ourselves or indeed pay enough tax so that adequately trained and paid staff do the job...

Finally there is an issue in Irish society of how we appear rather than who we are ...this kind of abuse I am sure has been going on for years but its is only an issue now for those who are forced to face it as it questions their view of their society and their sensibilities ...But previously facing up to it and openly questioning it is not the Irish way

Oh well another expensive enquiry that changes nothing

rob316

Out protesting about water charges we are and this **** is going on inside the HSE. I feel sick after it.

JRant

Ace2007 wrote: »

Realistically the only way the HSE/Management can stand over the level of care in all these facilities would be to have each room on 24 hour surveillance to a central location in Ireland.

More than likely 90% of homes like this in Ireland are run the right way, but there is no way other than recording or first hand witness accounts that management can know about it. Some of the patients had no way of communicating.

Well a lot of crèches have cameras now where parents can login and have a look for themselves.

Considering how cheap it is for a camera and storage device I think it should certainly be an idea worth looking into.

maringo

Shocking and despicable ill treatment of vulnerable people by thier "carers". The residents seemed to be continually assaulted and their limited lives made a misery by those ffrs. They should have been either suspended without pay or dismissed pending legal charges. I would like them to stand up in court and defend their actions. If it was my relative being abused I would be pressing criminal charges against the "carer" who abused my relative. To see the distress these people were put through in their home is truly shocking. Apart from the abuse, the absence of any recreational activity to suit their needs was striking. They were treated like prisoners kept in chairs so their "carers" could socialise and watch tv interrupted occasionally to threaten and assault the residents they were paid to look after. As for preventing this brutal treatment in care centres without constant monitoring and undercover staff it will go undetected. Occasional inspection just doesn't do the job. It makes you sick to the stomach to see the threatening, kicking, roughness and inhumanity. I saw only a couple of incidences of kindness during the programme. So shocking to see the cruelty of these "carers" and "Manager".

SpaceTime

The thing is that could be *any* of us.

All it takes is a dose of meningitis, a head injury or a stroke and you could be in the "care" of the HSE being humiliated, dragged around the floor, slapped, kicked etc

Even more horrific is that those women were in their 60s and 70s and have probably been silently putting up with this for decades without any voice or advocate.

monflat

Ace2007 wrote: »

Regarding the "manager", are you sure that was him in the clip - didn't look like someone on duty.

Also in the scale of offences what he actually did would probably not carry any sort of a sentence, and he could just play stupid about the rest of the stuff that went on.

Yes the fella in the coat with red on it.

He probably had an office in another area and came on a visit.
.they don't wear " nurses " uniforms in these centres and have not done for many yrs

Yurt2

Didn't watch and glad not to have done so given the description.

There's a very large mean streak in Irish culture and in how we treat each other. Unsurprising it extends even to the treatment of the vulnerable.

And every parishioner a saint and a 'pillar of the community'

myshirt

Another aspect to this also is the large amount of related party transactions that go through the accounts of these facilities. Did someone mention a banjo player related to one of the senior managers who gets €350 a week for a two hour session; every two weeks... nice handy number there.

ColeTrain

Ace2007 wrote: »

Well i'd like to think that most homes are good out there, whatever figure you use will be pulled from the sky - you might say the majority of places are like that, but neither me nor you can prove otherwise.

I'd like to think the same. Hopefully after tonight, more places that were ran like Swinford will be weeded out or they will be shocked into getting their act together.

Fuzzy Clam

anna080 wrote: »

Well lets be thankful you're not doing it so. And as for them being "hard work"; one service user was begging to be brought to the toilet, in so much distress that she thought they couldn't understand her so she put on the latex gloves they use in an attempt to communicate and articulate her point. She was met with "if ya died I wouldn't bring ya to the toilet". What's hard work or challenging about that? The woman couldn't do the most basic and fundamental part of her job and assist the client to the toilet. Deplorable primitive behaviour and I hope they are jailed.

Thats grand. You go off and do the job and come back here and report.
And when youve done that, read my post again.

monflat

myshirt wrote: »

Another aspect to this also is the large amount of related party transactions that go through the accounts of these facilities. Did someone mention a banjo player related to one of the senior managers who gets €350 a week for a two hour session; every two weeks... nice handy number there.

Yep it goes on
there were 7 women in that house I think
Each would fork out for entertainment.
2 hrs that's robbery...... 350 euro

Ace2007

JRant wrote: »

Well a lot of crèches have cameras now where parents can login and have a look for themselves.

Considering how cheap it is for a camera and storage device I think it should certainly be an idea worth looking into.

didn't know that about creches - learn something new everyday.

retro:electro

Fuzzy Clam wrote: »

Thats grand. You go off and do the job and come back here report.

Typical ignorant response. I don't have to "go off" and go anywhere to know what's acceptable treatment and what's not. I'm a moral person and I know abuse when I see it.

myshirt

Fuzzy Clam wrote: »

Thats grand. You go off and do the job and come back here report.

That comment is very offensive.

The point is that there are methods and a skillset involved here, such that that component of the work is basic. The point is not that the work itself is easy. No one says it is easy, but if you are not up to it, then not doing the job but instead doing something else with your life is much, much more preferable than what these ladies inflicted on these vulnerable people.

ColeTrain

Fuzzy Clam wrote: »

Thats grand. You go off and do the job and come back here and report.
And when youve done that, my post again.

So, what you're saying is you have to have worked as a carer to have an opinion on the Primetime show tonight? lol

wp_rathead

JRant wrote: »

What they displayed was the complete opposite of Studio 3.

yes which is why you could make argument that such training would be off benefit to these staff members..
..but sweet jesus- the extent of the abuse and their approach to the service users as objects rather than people wouldn't give me much hope that it'd have done much.. these staff that clearly don't have the personality or empathy for such a vocation as a carer...

goat2

it was horrid to watch that man with his weight on the person on the chair, cruel, he gets up and shrugs himself, disgusting

monflat

SpaceTime wrote: »

The thing is that could be *any* of us.

All it takes is a dose of meningitis, a head injury or a stroke and you could be in the "care" of the HSE being humiliated, dragged around the floor, slapped, kicked etc

Even more horrific is that those women were in their 60s and 70s and have probably been silently putting up with this for decades without any voice or advocate.

But the shocking thing is.
You go into that bungalow and read a care plan of one of those women.
It will totally be exceptionally well written \typed.
To read it you would have no issues with her care.
But the reality is so much different.

There's so much focus on paperwork in that line of work.
The most vulnerable were being abused in every way possible.

Highflyer13

Lets be honest we have serious issues with accountability and transperancy in this country. It is someone's job to ensure this type of thing doesn't happen and another person has to ensure that person is performing to expected standards.

Theres a rot in the HSE and it goes right to the top. No one seems to want to take responsibility for its obvious failings. I would say there is more of this thing happening. Im marching tomorrow against this Government and my main gripe is actually the state of our health system.

Ace2007

Fuzzy Clam wrote: »

Thats grand. You go off and do the job and come back here report.

You seem to have the opinion, that unless one of us has done the job before that we cannot comment and give out about the condition.

If the caring of these individual was done correctly then the job wouldn't be so hard, done correctly, means learning and trying to understand why people act in certain ways, maybe it's medication they are on, maybe there are other reasons - lack of activity, fear of bullying.

Once you understand people, then you learn how to care for them, but unfortunately the documentary shows that the "carers" don't actually give a dam.

Not everyone is cut out for this job, I would nearly go as far as saying that you probably couldn't find the required amount of staff required to run this home from such a small population that swinford has.

Would you accept the same behaviour of the staff towards children in a creche?

goat2

will these people we saw on prime time tonight be brought to book for this

JRant

wprathead wrote: »

yes which is why you could make argument that such training would be off benefit to these staff members..
..but sweet jesus- the extent of the abuse and their approach to the service users as objects rather than people wouldn't give me much hope that it'd have done much.. these staff that clearly don't have the personality or empathy for such a vocation as a carer...

It's hard to know from the program if they did receive training but the show's makers were at pains to repeatly mention the care plan for each person. This would tell me that some thought had gone into it.

Your right though, regardless of whether they were trained or not they didn't have a shred of decency between them.

StevieNicksFan

Fuzzy Clam wrote: »

Thats grand. You go off and do the job and come back here report.

Oh just go away. If you think it's acceptable to treat another person with violence, humiliation, nastiness and contempt I am praying to god you never work with vunerable people. These residents have disabilities - they have specific needs and do not have the ability to communicate like you or I. They were born this way and cannot help it. They rely on carers to help them meet their basic human needs.

Autism carries with it challenges in behaviour because of sensory and communication difficulties. Does that mean we push and hit them because they wont sit down? Tell them nobody wants them because they need the toilet? Imagine someone sewed your mouth shut for a week and you couldnt speak or even move without permission. Would your behaviour change? Would you find it easy to comply with unrealistic and inhumane demand? You go off and Try that and report back on how you get on

MadYaker

I would like to hold this up as an example to all the people on boards.ie who constantly slate RTE for being a government mouthpiece. This would never have seen the light of day if that were the case. I'm no fan of RTE but the primetime programme has done some important work over the years.

Frito

Fuzzy Clam wrote: »

Thats grand. You go off and do the job and come back here and report.
And when youve done that, read my post again.

I've done a similar job and didn't abuse anyone.

monflat

Highflyer13 wrote: »

Lets be honest we have serious issues with accountability and transperancy in this country. It is someone's job to ensure this type of thing doesn't happen and another person has to ensure that person is performing to expected standards.

Theres a rot in the HSE and it goes right to the top. No one seems to want to take responsibility for its obvious failings. I would say there is more of this thing happening. Im marching tomorrow against this Government and my main gripe is actually the state of our health system.

Totally agree.
And no one can get rid of them or fire them....

wp_rathead

Fuzzy Clam wrote: »

Im going to be shot for saying this but Duckcfc has a point. These people are extremely hard work. I only know this through casual contact with them many years ago. Never worked in the area. Its humans working with humans. I would love to see how some of the posters here would act in similar circumstances.
I couldn't do it, thats for sure.

I work in the care area. This was almost a training tutorial in how NOT to interact with service users - only unfortanlty it was not role play but happening to real vulnerable people.
From the obvious incidents as force fed, threats, being made sit when needing to go toilet, being neglected, staff "loving" when service user gets upset - to seemingly minor things like standing over a service rather than going onto their level, tone of voice, many staff standing over service user, giving a million and one instructions and using jargon

there is NO excuse for the actions of the staff in this video - the service user is paramount

SpaceTime

I think there's an element of abusive behaviour in caring roles in Ireland that hasn't been addressed and is definitely culturally learned from generation to generation.

When you think about it, we've all had the psychopathic school teacher who didn't really educate, but just instilled fear into his or her class to enforce discipline.

We've all heard horror stories of people being beaten by teachers, parents, nuns, priests, you name it...

and I think most of us have witnessed totally unacceptable public behaviour from parents towards children that almost always goes totally unchallenged out of fear / politeness.

I saw a middle aged woman shouting absolutely unbelievable abuse at her very young daughter in a shopping center. I guess I should have intervened but I probably would have been punched.
Telling her that she'd "f***ing kill" her and calling her a "c**t" and so on.

A lot of really weird behavior goes on here and gets tolerated and I think we should really stand back and take a long hard look at ourselves sometimes.

Highflyer13

rob316 wrote: »

Out protesting about water charges we are and this **** is going on inside the HSE. I feel sick after it.

Get to the protest then. Its about a lot more than water. People want to end civil war political parties that have destroyed our country time and time again. HSE is filled with FF/FG/Lab lackeys in the higher levels and its simply beurocratic, bloated and highly inefficient.

FG/FF do not do accountability and transparency and that is where the rot starts!!

myshirt

Will the protest tomorrow get violent?

MPFG

Highflyer13 wrote: »

Lets be honest we have serious issues with accountability and transperancy in this country. It is someone's job to ensure this type of thing doesn't happen and another person has to ensure that person is performing to expected standards.

Theres a rot in the HSE and it goes right to the top. No one seems to want to take responsibility for its obvious failings. I would say there is more of this thing happening. Im marching tomorrow against this Government and my main gripe is actually the state of our health system.

I work in the UK NHS at national level and have for some years and I can say after some recent dealings with the Irish Health Service through my mother's care and the HSE for my Grandmother's care I know where I would want to be if I am sick or need care and it is definitley not Ireland
There is no accountability or transparency...Some good people but alot of dreadful care

monflat

JRant wrote: »

It's hard to know from the program if they did receive training but the show's makers were at pains to repeatly mention the care plan for each person. This would tell me that some thought had gone into it.

Your right though, regardless of whether they were trained or not they didn't have a shred of decency between them.

It said afterwards two care assistants had fetac level 5
The nurse looked young so I would presume if she qualified post 2002 she has abachelors degree in nursing.

Hiqa require centres to run regular training for staff
But I doubt these staff know anything about behaviour management or autism

Warper

JRant wrote: »

Oh they will be. Once it's been investigated properly everyone will no who they are. The last thing I want to happen is for them to get off on a technicality because some ejit names them in a newspaper or such.

I really hope those poor women are now being taken care of. They looked like they were craving a little human touch but all they got was abuse. Very very sad.

You really have no clue of how the system works. These people will not be named and shamed and will not lose their jobs. This is the civil service

goat2

just because they had fetac courses done, does not change the kind of people they really are, we are either good or bad