RTE Primetime - Special needs people getting tortured in a facility

Ace2007

Warper wrote: »

You really have no clue of how the system works. These people will not be named and shamed and will not lose their jobs. This is the civil service

swinford is a very small place - and news travels in the country so while you or I may never know their name, those who live near them will, and so will do well to get jobs.

Warper

Ace2007 wrote: »

swinford is a very small place - and news travels in the country so while you or I may never know their name, those who live near them will, and so will do well to get jobs.

Did you not read my post, they have practically the unsackable job - the civil service. They wont get sacked, they are suspended on full pay - what a horrible punishment

Phoebas

Warper wrote: »

You really have no clue of how the system works. These people will not be named and shamed and will not lose their jobs. This is the civil service

No it isn't.

retro:electro

I don't mean to offend anyone but to me a fetac course just doesn't seem acceptable as an appropriate qualification to deal with the most vulnerable in our society.

monflat

goat2 wrote: »

just because they had fetac courses done, does not change the kind of people they really are, we are either good or bad

Yes I totally agree.
But education is fundamental too when working with these individuals and also staff should be rotated too.
There seemed to be a major clique.
Drinking tae
Texting
Watching telly

Ignoring the poor women's basic rights.
.being physically violent to women with osteoporosis.....

Words can't describe those staff..

monflat

anna080 wrote: »

I don't mean to offend anyone but to me a fetac course just doesn't seem acceptable as an appropriate qualification to deal with the most vulnerable in our society.

No but it's what is required at present to be employed as a care assistant.


A lot of people I know employeed pre 2004 don't have a hand to scratch themselves let alone a fetac qualification.


Fetac is a start thou as there are thousands out there who have no updated knowledge.

Years ago pre 2004 interviews were held you got garda vetted.
You passed.
You got the job.
You are on an incremental scale.
You're there for life.

You don't give a ****.
They can't get rid of you...

myshirt

It would be nothing short of an affront if these ladies remain in any level of gainful employment that requires Garda vetting.

They will lose their houses also. And as much of their assets as possible. And current income. And future income. That is as good as a promise from solicitors who will do this pro bono for justice.

mikom

St. Clabberts has gone ta fuck.

monflat

Phoebas wrote: »

No it isn't.

Why isn't it?

splitz

It was like watching Zimbardo's Stanford Prison Experiment, but worse because these people didn't volunteer to be treated like this; they are our societies most vulnerable citizens. The type of abuse we witnessed tonight was systemic - it came from the top. I can't understand why they weren't all dismissed immediately. If the HSE don't believe this abuse amounted to 'gross misconduct' it doesn't say much for their standards of care.

What sickens me most is that there are some truly exceptional services in this sector - I know of one housing over twice as many residents, (and with far fewer staff by the look of it), not a million miles from Swinford, where the residents are not just treated with dignity and respect, but are truly cherished. Weeding out bad apples won't cut it - this place is rotten to the core.

6am7f9zxrsjvnb

Are these "carers" naturally evil people? I doubt it. They are uneducated, frustrated people doing a job that most of us would run a mile from. They probably entered the job as compassionate,decent people.

What tonight tells us is that a very specific type of person is required to do this type of work. The interview and training process needs to be rigorous,with regular assessment of staff.

Colours

I think that the buck stops with the management in these situations. The salary of the staff on the ground, i.e. the carers, is a factor in the level of care that the management can reasonably expect.

This kind of abuse goes on in lots of other arenas and I found it slightly nauseating to listen to those 2 "professors" profess their outrage and distaste. I wonder when was the last time either of these two distinguished gentlemen administered direct care to people with intellectual disabilities and challenging behaviours.

Scuid Mhór

o1s1n wrote: »

What has me absolutely flabbergasted is the fact that there are so many staff members acting like such scummy cnuts.all it takes is one to speak out.

****ing disgusting.

The Zimbardo Prison Effect / The Bystander Effect both in action right here, sadly.

Edit: splitz beat me to it by four posts, lol.

Smidge

KERSPLAT! wrote: »

I'm not watching but how were they getting away with it!? Surely someone with a heart would stand up to tgis crap or at the very least bring it to the attention of superiors, or is that what happened?

Tbh Kersplat, there are more things going on within sections of the HSE that would shock the living bejaysus out of people if they knew about it.
Why do people not come forward?
Quite often they do but then the REAL proverbial hits the fan.
Have someone who needs services and you report something?
Oooooo, you can find yourself in a whole lot of trouble real quick.

A lot of these services provided by the HSE are staffed and run(from top to bottom)by people who are there in a job for a wage. And dont even attempt to try to mess with their income.
Its an awful statement to make as the good people in these sectors are far outweighed(as we saw in that show how they got rid of someone who was on staff and complained about the care given)by the people who want to do as little as humanly possible and take their pay packet home.

rosiem

Colours wrote: »

I think that the buck stops with the management in these situations. The salary of the staff on the ground, i.e. the carers, is a factor in the level of care that the management can reasonably expect.

This kind of abuse goes on in lots of other arenas and I found it slightly nauseating to listen to those 2 "professors" profess their outrage and distaste. I wonder when was the last time either of these two distinguished gentlemen administered direct care to people with intellectual disabilities and challenging behaviours.

You were nauseated by people professing outrage and distaste ???
I was nauseated by watching vile people behave and treat vulnerable people in such a disgusting manner

Colours

rosiem wrote: »

You were nauseated by people professing outrage and distaste ???
I was nauseated by watching vile people behave and treat vulnerable people in such a disgusting manner

Yes I was because why weren't these upstanding holier than thou types making sure that this kind of practice wouldn't take place? Maybe because they were hiding behind protocol and red tape. If you are willing to pay peanuts to people to care for these vulnerable people than what do you honestly expect. And that's a rhetorical question.

Xenji

Not gonna mention any names, but most of them are now turning up on Facebook.

Smurph90

I dont care, you cant defend these carers or justify their actions by saying how hard it is do deal with the residents. Its not like they are volunteers or being forced to work there, its their job and they're earning a wage to look after people, not sit around on their hole all day drinking tea.

Albertofrog

One of the major problems with this is care attendants/assistants are not professionally regulated.
There is no professional sanction that can be enforced.
If they so wish they could just up sticks and move somewhere else.

Smidge

pharmaton wrote: »

I actually don't know how to respond to your post because it's so stupid.

In so far as my current experience with the HSE (which I've spent a year studying), my medical records were accessed without authorization and discovered in a colleagues office. waste of time reporting this stuff as it's not like anybody will ever be held accountable while they try to effectively manage out anybody who might be considered a liability. And those in positions of authority continue to get promoted. So yeah, I wouldn't mind being an investigative reporter if the opportunity came along..

I have said MANY MANY times that there really should be more undercover done right across the HSE.
From hospitals to service to care homes.
The sad part is that I know that it never will as things are just to rotten for those of us who have seen the dark under belly in all of its shocking glory.

rosiem

Colours wrote: »

Yes I was because why weren't these upstanding holier than thou types making sure that this kind of practice wouldn't take place? Maybe because they were hiding behind protocol and red tape. If you are willing to pay peanuts to people to care for these vulnerable people than what do you honestly expect. And that's a rhetorical question.

These people are up-defendable regardless of what they are paid they are disgusting humans and I cannot understand how your point of anger from tonight's programme was directed towards the 2 professors and not at the abusers there is no excuse for there actions.

whatdoicare

I didn't watch the program but what I will say is the HSE are preparing for a huge cover their arse/**** storm situation.

I know of one facility near me where patients who were in unsuitable conditions for their disability are being moved asap into brand new facilities after years and years of parents trying to get them their own facility. I'm talking a letter to parents last week and being moved this week. No mention before of this facility, just appeared out of nowhere.

I notice that the patients being moved are the verbal ones who, while probably not able to put into words if they were being abused would be able to tell in a roundabout way what the day consists of and what nurses do everyday or perhaps how they do it. Patients with say, high functioning Autism for example.

Makes me sick with rage to even think what bad bastards can do to vulnerable people only for the government to cover them and protect them. :mad:

Colours

Smurph90 wrote: »

I dont care, you cant defend these carers or justify their actions by saying how hard it is do deal with the residents. Its not like they are volunteers or being forced to work there, its their job and they're earning a wage to look after people, not sit around on their hole all day drinking tea.

Maybe so, but it is the job of the rest of us - managers and professors included - to observe and raise alarms when these care recipients' rights are being ignored.

I would like to know the salary of these carers. I'm pretty sure it's under €30k per anmum.

Colours

rosiem wrote: »

These people are up-defendable regardless of what they are paid they are disgusting humans and I cannot understand how your point of anger from tonight's program was directed towards the 2 professors and not at the abusers there is no excuse for there actions.

I'll tell you why. Because there was someone who was supposed to oversee all of this who, I assume, couldn't be bothered, and appointed these (perhaps ill-qualified) personnel to look after the residents whom they were put in their charge.

Hijpo

Colours wrote: »

Maybe so, but it is the job of the rest of us - managers and professors included - to observe and raise alarms when these care recipients' rights are being ignored.

I would like to know the salary of these carers. I'm pretty sure it's under €30k per anmum.

The carers are not alone, there was a nurse there as well and she was one of the worst ones, doubt she was on 30k.

brooke 2

Those women did not become like that as soon as they crossed the door of the house.
I imagine they are just as unpleasant in their own homes. They sounded dog rough.
The single kind carer in that film - the one who reprimanded the person who was
threatening one of the ladies and also who danced with one of them - did not turn
into a brute when she entered the building. This would make one wonder what
criteria the HSE employs when choosing carers. If those sadists had been wearing
nuns' habits, people would be attacking the Catholic Church.

What exactly were the HIQA inspectors looking for, I wonder? One of the carers
told Ivy to stay sitting 'in case anyone came in'. Why was this? Was this one of her
instructions? Did the inspectors not notice the lack of stimulating activities in
the place? No music or art? Was it a requirement that all the members of the
house be quietly seated? It was heartbreaking to see defenceless women left
sitting in the same place for hours. It reminded me of the little children in the
crèches lined up by the wall in their high chairs. What is the matter with this
country and the manner in which we treat our most vulnerable??!!

brooke 2

Colours wrote: »

I'll tell you why. Because there was someone who was supposed to oversee all of this who, I assume, couldn't be bothered, and appointed these (perhaps ill-qualified) personnel to look after the residents whom they were put in their charge.

Totally agree with you. There seemed to be no proper supervision there. It is
too much of a coincidence that most of those 'carers' were such sadists. How
were they ever appointed? Only one of the staff seemed to treat the residents with
any semblance of kindness.

sandra06

Warper wrote: »

You really have no clue of how the system works. These people will not be named and shamed and will not lose their jobs. This is the civil service

i hope your wrong but i dought you are its like yrs ago when the priests were above the law these people probally think the same there needs to be a better system to sack people

Crusheen101

brooke 2 wrote: »

Those women did not become like that as soon as they crossed the door of the house.
I imagine they are just as unpleasant in their own homes. They sounded dog rough.
The single kind carer in that film - the one who reprimanded the person who was
threatening one of the ladies and also who danced with one of them - did not turn
into a brute when she entered the building. This would make one wonder what
criteria the HSE employs when choosing carers. If those sadists had been wearing
nuns' habits, people would be attacking the Catholic Church.

What exactly were the HIQA inspectors looking for, I wonder? One of the carers
told Ivy to stay sitting 'in case anyone came in'. Why was this? Was this one of her
instructions? Did the inspectors not notice the lack of stimulating activities in
the place? No music or art? Was it a requirement that all the members of the
house be quietly seated? It was heartbreaking to see defenceless women left
sitting in the same place for hours. It reminded me of the little children in the
crèches lined up by the wall in their high chairs. What is the matter with this
country and the manner in which we treat our most vulnerable??!!

I'll tell you exactly what's wrong with this country. WE ARE. I mean look at this thread. Two or three pages in someone says "I bet Gerry Ryan would have something to say if he was still around". That's the kind of pathetic response the people of this country give when they see this kind of hell going on right under their noses. Everyone in this country has this "someone else'll deal with it" mentality.

I'm no revolutionary but the people of this country are a thundering disgrace. Look at any other country in the world, even the EU. They get angry. They take the fight right to the top. What do we do? "Ugh. I wish Gerry Ryan were still around to say something about it".

This is hardly the first we've heard about cases like this going on in this country and the atrocities ignored by the HSE. Look at the children in the care of the HSE who end up dying in the gutter.

It's high time the people of this country tore down the gates of Leinster House and let that pack of serpents know exactly who they work for.

FullblownRose

Smidge wrote: »

Tbh Kersplat, there are more things going on within sections of the HSE that would shock the living bejaysus out of people if they knew about it.
Why do people not come forward?
Quite often they do but then the REAL proverbial hits the fan.
Have someone who needs services and you report something?
Oooooo, you can find yourself in a whole lot of trouble real quick.

A lot of these services provided by the HSE are staffed and run(from top to bottom)by people who are there in a job for a wage. And dont even attempt to try to mess with their income.
Its an awful statement to make as the good people in these sectors are far outweighed(as we saw in that show how they got rid of someone who was on staff and complained about the care given)by the people who want to do as little as humanly possible and take their pay packet home.

You hit the nail on the head.
I wonder if you've met some of the same people i have.

monflat

Colours wrote: »

Maybe so, but it is the job of the rest of us - managers and professors included - to observe and raise alarms when these care recipients' rights are being ignored.

I would like to know the salary of these carers. I'm pretty sure it's under €30k per anmum.

God not necessarily
They work weekends nights etc.
Christmas etc. Premium pay for bank holidays etc.

A care assistant is on a 12 point incremental scale.
A care assistant on the top of their scale could be on 40 thousand

Phoebas

Crusheen101 wrote: »

I'll tell you exactly what's wrong with this country. WE ARE. I mean look at this thread. Two or three pages in someone says "I bet Gerry Ryan would have something to say if he was still around". That's the kind of pathetic response the people of this country give when they see this kind of hell going on right under their noses. Everyone in this country has this "someone else'll deal with it" mentality.

I'm no revolutionary but the people of this country are a thundering disgrace. Look at any other country in the world, even the EU. They get angry. They take the fight right to the top. What do we do? "Ugh. I wish Gerry Ryan were still around to say something about it".

This is hardly the first we've heard about cases like this going on in this country and the atrocities ignored by the HSE. Look at the children in the care of the HSE who end up dying in the gutter.

It's high time the people of this country tore down the gates of Leinster House and let that pack of serpents know exactly who they work for.

This is just another version of the "someone else'll deal with it" mentality you're complaining about.

Buona Fortuna

duckcfc wrote: »

How are you supposed to do with them thou. They are hard work

I'd imagine that they are. But that occupation is a calling. If you can't do it with compassion, consideration, repect, empathy, dignity, then ffs - do something else.

robbiezero

Crusheen101 wrote: »

I'll tell you exactly what's wrong with this country. WE ARE. I mean look at this thread. Two or three pages in someone says "I bet Gerry Ryan would have something to say if he was still around". That's the kind of pathetic response the people of this country give when they see this kind of hell going on right under their noses. Everyone in this country has this "someone else'll deal with it" mentality.

I'm no revolutionary but the people of this country are a thundering disgrace. Look at any other country in the world, even the EU. They get angry. They take the fight right to the top. What do we do? "Ugh. I wish Gerry Ryan were still around to say something about it".

This is hardly the first we've heard about cases like this going on in this country and the atrocities ignored by the HSE. Look at the children in the care of the HSE who end up dying in the gutter.

It's high time the people of this country tore down the gates of Leinster House and let that pack of serpents know exactly who they work for.

Why don't you just stand for election?

johnwd

monflat wrote: »

Totally agree.

There's absolutely no funding in these places. .
They have more choice /activities \staff in prisons

I don't think you saw the same program I did - the "staff" seemed to be all over the place drinkin tae, watchin telly and making up stuff to put into forms about the wonderful activities patients were doing - how I would love to read some of the reports about patients on the day they were being filmed - I doubt if the patients notes said "Sat in Chair for the day". At one stage it was said there were 5 staff on duty to 7 patients. Its NOT because of lack of funding it's because of a complete and utter lack of compassion and understanding. This is going on ALL over the place (as is good care I'm sure). Too many forms being filled out and very little empathy with patients.

splitz

They could well be ' pillars of the community' and diligent mass goers, that's what's so disturbing about this. I'm guessing that due to a complete lack of knowledge and understanding about the ethics of care they collectively dehumanized the residents and felt it f was perfectly okay to do so - they were there to instill discipline. (calling Ivy's 'McGinty' rather than her first name and telling adults they were ' bold' for example. Undoubtedly much of this was down to some psychological external forces that influence group behaviour, but management practices and proper training are designed to stop this type of situation happening. That aside, why didn't someone speak out sooner? That needs addressing too. From what was said any ' troublemaker' was penalised harshly. For all the misplaced slating of agency staff, any money it was a temp or a student social care worker who reported these sadist hags to RTE.

monflat

johnwd wrote: »

I don't think you saw the same program I did - the "staff" seemed to be all over the place drinkin tae, watchin telly and making up stuff to put into forms about the wonderful activities patients were doing - how I would love to read some of the reports about patients on the day they were being filmed - I doubt if the patients notes said "Sat in Chair for the day". At one stage it was said there were 5 staff on duty to 7 patients. Its NOT because of lack of funding it's because of a complete and utter lack of compassion and understanding. This is going on ALL over the place (as is good care I'm sure). Too many forms being filled out and very little empathy with patients.

I made a general statement about funding I apologise.
In these places I meant not in that particular place.

I work and have worked in places like this for last 18 yrs.
I'm sorry but I do know what I am talking about.

You should read back over the thread I have posted many times

johnwd

Ace2007 wrote: »

Realistically the only way the HSE/Management can stand over the level of care in all these facilities would be to have each room on 24 hour surveillance to a central location in Ireland

Sounds like a damn good idea to me - maybe not in every room but in all public ones. Some creches have this - why not care homes.

splitz

They could well be ' pillars of the community' and diligent mass goers, that's what's so disturbing about this. I'm guessing that due to a complete lack of knowledge and understanding about the ethics of care they collectively dehumanized the residents and felt it f was perfectly okay to do so - they were there to instill discipline. (calling Ivy's 'McGinty' rather than her first name and telling adults they were ' bold' for example. Undoubtedly much of this was down to some psychological external forces that influence group behaviour, but management practices and proper training are designed to stop this type of situation happening. That aside, why didn't someone speak out sooner? That needs addressing too. From what was said any ' troublemaker' was penalised harshly. For all the misplaced slating of agency staff, any money it was a temp or a student social care worker who reported these sadist hags to RTE.

And incidentally, they probably were not all on duty in Bungalow 3 at the same time; all the like minded crows just convened there for tea and gossip, using the residents' home as an informal staff canteen. That's bad practice to start with - insist on staggered breaks and using the staff canteen. Any right minded staff probably avoided them like the plague, but you can understand why they might well have been afraid to speak up too.

Hitchens

A colleague of mine said this morning.........."I'd love for that fcucing manager to try sitting on me"

Anyway, read this for taking the bloody pizz: http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/town-left-reeling-over-allegations-30789960.html

Denial or what?

wp_rathead

splitz wrote: »

Any right minded staff probably avoided them like the plague, but you can understand why they might well have been afraid to speak up too.

the clip on the radio this morning was telling, with staff talking about other staff that "would report everything" and "glad they are gone" - add in the factor of the manager acting in the way he did is it any wonder these staff moved on.. Thankfully it was "whistleblown"
Also had to feel for the woman who was there on work placement -
imagine having to witness this..

Timberrrrrrrr

Hitchens wrote: »

A colleague of mine said this morning.........."I'd love for that fcucing manager to try sitting on me"

Anyway, read this for taking the bloody pizz: http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/town-left-reeling-over-allegations-30789960.html

Denial or what?

The wagons are circling

monflat

splitz wrote: »

They could well be ' pillars of the community' and diligent mass goers, that's what's so disturbing about this. I'm guessing that due to a complete lack of knowledge and understanding about the ethics of care they collectively dehumanized the residents and felt it f was perfectly okay to do so - they were there to instill discipline. (calling Ivy's 'McGinty' rather than her first name and telling adults they were ' bold' for example. Undoubtedly much of this was down to some psychological external forces that influence group behaviour, but management practices and proper training are designed to stop this type of situation happening. That aside, why didn't someone speak out sooner? That needs addressing too. From what was said any ' troublemaker' was penalised harshly. For all the misplaced slating of agency staff, any money it was a temp or a student social care worker who reported these sadist hags to RTE.

And incidentally, they probably were not all on duty in Bungalow 3 at the same time; all the like minded crows just convened there for tea and gossip, using the residents' home as an informal staff canteen. That's bad practice to start with - insist on staggered breaks and using the staff canteen. Any right minded staff probably avoided them like the plague, but you can understand why they might well have been afraid to speak up too.

Totally agree but I'm sure they said 7 service users and 4 staff
This would consist of one nurse and 3 care assistants at any one time.

It's pure and utter disgraceful.
The most shocking thing is that of course management knew about this.
Bastards

gctest50

Hitchens wrote: »

.......
Denial or what?

the old reliable "it was only a bit of a misunderstanding" one :

Another woman, who knew staff at the centre, said she believed the footage may have been taken out of context.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/hse-issues-apology-over-%C3%A1ras-attracta-mistreatment-1.2031940

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/varadkar-backs-use-of-undercover-abuse-investigations-1.2031151

BeerWolf

Treating them worst than they would to an animal... total disregard of simple human dignity - absolutely appalling. I simply cannot stand abuse towards elderly people, children, and the disabled - people that can't fend themselves.

Find it ridiculous that they'll be receiving FULL PAY while they've been suspended for blatantly clear abuse. Had it personally been someone I knew being abused, the abuser would be missing all their teeth come intervention.

Roger_007

I haven't read all the posts on this thread, so I'm not sure if the issue of the clear identification of the residents was raised. I think it is a gross invasion of the privacy of these people to secretly film them in a vulnerable situation and then broadcast it to the nation without any attempt to blur their faces or conceal their names.
RTE saw fit to conceal the identities of the 'carers' and yet did not afford the residents the same privilege.
Would this have happened if the people concerned did not have an intellectual disability, I doubt it.

whiskeyman

Roger_007 wrote: »

I haven't read all the posts on this thread, so I'm not sure if the issue of the clear identification of the residents was raised. I think it is a gross invasion of the privacy of these people to secretly film them in a vulnerable situation and then broadcast it to the nation without any attempt to blur their faces or conceal their names.
RTE saw fit to conceal the identities of the 'carers' and yet did not afford the residents the same privilege.
Would this have happened if the people concerned did not have an intellectual disability, I doubt it.

Did you even watch the programme?
Their families were also on the Prime Time report last night.
I assume they were contacted first about it and it was cleared with them.
If anything, it puts a more personal spin on the story and makes it even more harrowing.

sammy37

Roger_007 wrote: »

I haven't read all the posts on this thread, so I'm not sure if the issue of the clear identification of the residents was raised. I think it is a gross invasion of the privacy of these people to secretly film them in a vulnerable situation and then broadcast it to the nation without any attempt to blur their faces or conceal their names.
RTE saw fit to conceal the identities of the 'carers' and yet did not afford the residents the same privilege.
Would this have happened if the people concerned did not have an intellectual disability, I doubt it.

Their families agreed and some were interviewed on primetime last night and they were also thanked on the credits at the end of the show. I woul say they were glad this was all exposed. The carers faces would have to be concealed until their is an inquiry for legal reasons.

wp_rathead

Roger_007 wrote: »

I haven't read all the posts on this thread, so I'm not sure if the issue of the clear identification of the residents was raised. I think it is a gross invasion of the privacy of these people to secretly film them in a vulnerable situation and then broadcast it to the nation without any attempt to blur their faces or conceal their names.
RTE saw fit to conceal the identities of the 'carers' and yet did not afford the residents the same privilege.
Would this have happened if the people concerned did not have an intellectual disability, I doubt it.

Consent would have to be given to name and show faces of the individuals
they would not have shown or named them otherwise

GhostInTheRuins

Hitchens wrote: »

A colleague of mine said this morning.........."I'd love for that fcucing manager to try sitting on me"

Anyway, read this for taking the bloody pizz: http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/town-left-reeling-over-allegations-30789960.html

Denial or what?

But those comments were said weeks ago, before the show even aired. That article was published on the 2nd of December so the locals didn't know the extent of the abuse, just that there were accusations. I'm sure they actually believed what they said about the home at the time, but I'd say if you asked them today you'd get a completely different response.