RTE Primetime - Special needs people getting tortured in a facility

monflat

brooke 2 wrote: »

The thought that those brutes probably have children of their own occurred to me
throughout the programme. I doubt they treat them any differently from the way
they bullied the vulnerable residents of that home. They displayed little kindness or
empathy.

Of course they do and to think that the manager joined in.......
And he would go to meetings with senior management and act as if nothing happened.
God those poor women.

A diagnosis of a severe intellectual disability but had asked on numerous times to go to be changed in toilet and a basic need was refused by numerous staff.

However she was well able to communicate all she needed was someone to be nice to her

allym

monflat wrote: »

Listening to radio one.
Leo vardkar sayin that the unit had 470 hrs of training.

This is bull****e.
This training that hiqa require is fire safety training. Manual handling

The safe guarding vulnerable people " course " is 2.5 hrs long

No amount of training will improve this

Exactly. No one needs training to know that it's wrong to drag someone across a room, or kick them.

All staff should be well trained, but no amount of training will make you suitable for the job.

brooke 2

monflat wrote: »

Of course they do and to think that the manager joined in.......
And he would go to meetings with senior management and act as if nothing happened.
God those poor women.

A diagnosis of a severe intellectual disability but had asked on numerous times to go to be changed in toilet and a basic need was refused by numerous staff.

However she was well able to communicate all she needed was someone to be nice to her

They are probably still wondering what all the fuss is about.

suicide_circus

If these care assistants are directly employed by the hse rather than agency I can almost guarantee you that they wont be sacked and will just be mandated to attend additional training courses...but not before they are out on 6 months long term paid sick leave due to the stress of being exposed on tv.

the dark phantom

Have any of these staff been arrested or charged yet ?




Thought so....

Frigga_92

I have read a few of the news articles about this story today.
On thejournal they have a detailed article on what happened and some of the patients are mentioned in detail, why they were there, their care plan and what happened to them in the footage.
It's absolutely sickening.
One of the ladies is called Mary and her care plan says that she enjoys having her hand held or her hair stroked as she finds it soothing. This is one of the most basic things that any person, nevermind a medical professional, would know is soothing to another human. Was that such a difficult task to undertake? People have talked about this being "hard work", which do you think would be an easier job - holding her hand, stroking her hair, making her feel safe or shouting at her and hitting her and doing none of the things that help her cope better with her illness and therefore if she is coping better, your job is made easier?

Telling people who have no voice other than shouting to shut up and making them more agitated? Does that make the job easier?

These medical professionals and "care" givers seem to think that because these patients have disabilities, whether mental or physical, that they don't feel any emotions. They just treat them like objects.

I feel so sorry for these families who thought that they were doing the right thing, leaving their family members in the care of professionals who would know how to treat them and how to care for them.

One of the worst things about this is that these people still can't speak up for themselves and explain exactly what went on, this abuse may have made their illnesses even worse.
What didn't the video footage pick up outside of the 3 week period? What else went on? The footage seems to be of one area, what about in their own bedrooms or the bathrooms?

TheChizler

the dark phantom wrote: »

Have any of these staff been arrested or charged yet ?




Thought so....

Thought what? Do you know the answer?

26sdrawkcab wrote: »

What didn't the video footage pick up outside of the 3 week period? What else went on? The footage seems to be of one area, what about in their own bedrooms or the bathrooms?

That brings up another point, why did RTÉ wait 3 weeks before going to the authorities with this? Surely the abuse would have been obvious after a few days?

Buona Fortuna

bluewolf wrote: »

I was actually going to say whatever about water protests, and I do agree with them, there should be one on this also.

I agree, but I think we should protest about the whole of the HSE.

I don't exonerate these nine or diminish what they've done. I am sure they will get what's coming to them. However they weren't born wanting to do this. The Swinford abuses remind me of the prisoner abuses in Abu Gharib (spelling). I'd like to think we'd do a better job clearing up the mess.

retro:electro

What's even more disturbing to think about is what may have happened that the cameras weren't there for. All we saw was a snapshot, but it was crystal clear that these "carers" were more than comfortable in their positions of power and abuse. I dread to think what happened these poor service users in their bedrooms or bathrooms.

monflat

TheChizler wrote: »

Thought what? Do you know the answer?



That brings up another point, why did RTÉ wait 3 weeks before going to the authorities with this? Surely the abuse would have been obvious after a few days?

Possibly but obviously trying to build a big case against them.
.

jimgoose

monflat wrote: »

Possibly but obviously trying to build a big case against them.
.

Probably just firing chaff at the Water Charges protest today. Don't ever forget who RTE works for.

SpaceTime

TheChizler wrote: »

Thought what? Do you know the answer?



That brings up another point, why did RTÉ wait 3 weeks before going to the authorities with this? Surely the abuse would have been obvious after a few days?

Because the authorities don't react and might have gone out of their way to throw up all sorts of legal hurdles to prevent broadcast.

TheChizler

SpaceTime wrote: »

Because the authorities don't react and might have gone out of their way to throw up all sorts of legal hurdles to prevent broadcast.

The HSE and Gardaí were informed 2 weeks ago though, weren't they? At least not in the last few days. I'm not talking about delaying the broadcast, I'm talking about delaying reporting.

SpaceTime

I guess they had to weigh up gathering evidence vs blowing their cover though.

The internal HSE systems clearly don't work.
I don't think RTE did anything other than successfully blow the lid off it.

FullblownRose

To the (thankfully few) folk commenting that they are hard wor and what would you do in the same job?
IF you cannot keep your temper in trying situations you have NO place working with people with intellectual disabilites.
PLENTY of people keep their tempers and approach difficult situations calmly and thoughtfully. There is no place for anyone who can't hande difficult situations in those jobs.

Laying a hand on anyone in anger is ASSAULT.

Alun

SpaceTime wrote: »

The internal HSE systems clearly don't work.

It's hard to think of a system of inspections that would work to prevent cases such as this though. Even unannounced inspections would be obvious to the staff concerned and they'd pretty soon revert to being nice all of a sudden.

All the revelations that have come out here and in the UK have been as a result of secret filming operations in specific homes. I don't imagine it'd be even remotely practical to install cameras in every single location and have people monitor said cameras 24/7.

wendell borton

All the training, regulation and weasel words are meaningless if the workers don't have any aptitude for the work they are doing.

Galwayguy35

Nothing much more I can add here only to echo what everyone else has been saying, shocking behaviour by the staff.

It's sad to think 2 of the women were aged 68 and 75 and were being pushed and shoved around the place.

Tony EH

monflat wrote: »

Listening to radio one.
Leo vardkar sayin that the unit had 470 hrs of training.

This is bull****e.
This training that hiqa require is fire safety training. Manual handling

The safe guarding vulnerable people " course " is 2.5 hrs long

No amount of training will improve this

I wouldn't listen to anything that shitbag says.

TheChizler

wendell borton wrote: »

All the training, regulation and weasel words are meaningless if the workers don't have any aptitude for the work they are doing.

Well it's correct training and regulations that will have to weed out those without aptitude.

wendell borton

What, there's a fetac course on compassion and decency now?

ArtyC

Will this not be on the player? I don't know if I can watch yet but haven't seen it due to work!

Horrified about what I've read.

monflat

TheChizler wrote: »

Well it's correct training and regulations that will have to weed out those without aptitude.

Disagree with you there.

There was a nurse on duty probably qualified in the area of intellectual disability.
If qualified post 2004 she would definitely have a bachelor in.nursing studies.
There was a clinical nurse manager.
Who sat on the woman in the corner he has a nursing qualification.

They mentioned after that 2 of the care assistants had fetac level 5
There was a terrible culture there and all grades of staff joined in.
All of them lack compassion dignity and respect.

The nurses had correct training however it didn't stop them.
The fetac level 5 deal with core principles of respect treat individuals with dignity etc.
It didn't matter

TheChizler

wendell borton wrote: »

What, there's a fetac course on compassion and decency now?

I don't know, there could be. Maybe there could be an aptitude aspect to the training, enforced by regulation.

monflat

TheChizler wrote: »

I don't know, there could be. Maybe there could be an aptitude aspect to the training, enforced by regulation.

No there's not I'm afraid.

I work in this area and no matter HOW MANY TIMES YOU REMIND PEOPLE (staff) about the right things. Respect dignity choice etc.
They nod and agree but they either are caring or not.

GLaDOS

ArtyC wrote: »

Will this not be on the player? I don't know if I can watch yet but haven't seen it due to work!

Horrified about what I've read.

It's up on RTE player, search for "RTÉ Investigations Unit: Inside Bungalow 3"

Peter Anthony

Bet they dont do any prison time they're women abusers after all, I'm sure really they are victims too. But people shoplifting get set down.

Typical of this kip of a banana republic. This country isnt happy unless its torturing people, implicit in sexual abuse scandals or bankrupting itself protecting bankers. Heck some people have engaged in all 3 and have never seen a day in court. What a country.

mariaalice

There was a saying of my mother which was ...kindness costs nothing its as simple as that really.

phater phagan

Good management systems were not put in place. That is were the rot of the problem lies.

Like so many of our public institutions, there is a plethora of weak, incompetent people at upper levels who are neither capable of sound judgement and principles nor strong disciplinary standards.

That is obviously the situation in Aras Attracta ( a misnomer if ever there was one), and if the pressure is not kept on various government departments - who are supposed to be the guardians of well-being of the helpless in our society- this too will pass like others before it until another outrage arises.

It's a bit like the Groundhog Day here except that unlike the film they don't learn from their mistakes.

TheChizler

monflat wrote: »

No there's not I'm afraid.

I didn't say there was?

They could bring it in through regulation.

Venus In Furs

Crusheen101 wrote: »

I'll tell you exactly what's wrong with this country. WE ARE. I mean look at this thread. Two or three pages in someone says "I bet Gerry Ryan would have something to say if he was still around". That's the kind of pathetic response the people of this country give when they see this kind of hell going on right under their noses. Everyone in this country has this "someone else'll deal with it" mentality.

I'm no revolutionary but the people of this country are a thundering disgrace. Look at any other country in the world, even the EU. They get angry. They take the fight right to the top. What do we do? "Ugh. I wish Gerry Ryan were still around to say something about it".

This is hardly the first we've heard about cases like this going on in this country and the atrocities ignored by the HSE. Look at the children in the care of the HSE who end up dying in the gutter.

It's high time the people of this country tore down the gates of Leinster House and let that pack of serpents know exactly who they work for.

I presume you're including yourself, seeing as you say "Everyone in this country has this "someone else'll deal with it" mentality" and "the people of this country are a thundering disgrace"?
If it's high time the people of this country tore down the gates of Leinster House etc, what are you doing yourself in this regard? Nothing, seeing as "everyone" in this country has this "someone else'll deal with it" mentality?

I don't understand why you've picked that one comment about Gerry Ryan to highlight how disgraceful "we" are. Why are you ignoring the reams and reams of pages of people expressing disgust?

mariaalice

phater phagan wrote: »

Good management systems were not put in place. That is were the rot of the problem lies.

Like so many of our public institutions, there is a plethora of weak, incompetent people at upper levels who are neither capable of sound judgement and principles nor strong disciplinary standards.

That is obviously the situation in Aras Attracta ( a misnomer if ever there was one), and if the pressure is not kept on various government departments - who are supposed to be the guardians of well-being of the helpless in our society- this too will pass like others before it until another outrage arises.

It's a bit like the Groundhog Day here except that unlike the film they don't learn from their mistakes.

All that may be true, however fundamentally if the staff are not compassionated first then nothing else matters. The fact that its badly run does not stop the staff form being kind, compassionate, and professional in the way they work.

monflat

TheChizler wrote: »

I didn't say there was?

They could bring it in through regulation.

It does not matter.
I have been involved in audits hiqa and quality team audits.
They don't see everything.
They are interested in paperwork..
Reams and reams of it.
As long as it's on paper they are delighted.

If something is written on paper it's not necessarily carried out.

The problem lies in management from top down.
I've seen it over the years.
The management of this place knew this was going on and joined in

Mam of 4

mariaalice wrote: »

All that may be true, however fundamentally if the staff are not compassionated first then nothing else matters. The fact that its badly run does not stop the staff form being kind, compassionate, and professional in the way they work.

+100

Makes you wonder that if any one of the staff had a family member with a disability living with them at home, would they condone them being treated in this way by another family member ? to be honest , wouldn't like to know the answer to that question as I found it to be horrifying viewing last night . Thinking that as a parent of someone with special needs , that but for the luck of God, Buddha , whoever , it could have been my child, your child, in years to come being treated in such a way , breaks my heart.

sorry if post doesn't make much sense..

myshirt

"Where the f#ck is all this sh!t coming from?", thought the fan.

Wtf?

Etc etc.

So, surprised they may be, the rubber has hit the road for these scumbags and they are in for a swift awakening.

Colours

rosiem wrote: »

You were nauseated by people professing outrage and distaste ???
I was nauseated by watching vile people behave and treat vulnerable people in such a disgusting manner

Yes of course I am disgusted and appalled at seeing any living creature being abused and tortured and it is particularly vile when they are unable to speak up for or defend themselves.

GLaDOS

Just watched it there on RTE player, absolutely harrowing stuff. I don't think the OPs use of the word 'torture' is out of place at all. When you think this is supposed to be their home, a place of safety, it really is torture. What the hell was going through that managers head when he came in and sat on the poor woman?

Letree

The person i'd hold most responsible was the manager who came in and sat on Ivy. Normally when the boss comes in people would be on their best behaviour. But this boss set the scene, he was an abuser himself so the staff never had to fear him walking in while they were being abusive.

monflat

I'm not sure if anyone is familiar with Winterbourne view
It was a similar undercover investigation of horrific abuse 2 yrs ago in UK.


The place was inspected twice in 2 yrs and nothing was found to be out of place or any evidence of abuse.

If anyone wants NOT.. To sleep for a week
It's one to watch. It's on you tube

Horrific abuse again of vulnerable adults.

brooke 2

monflat wrote: »

It does not matter.
I have been involved in audits hiqa and quality team audits.
They don't see everything.
They are interested in paperwork..
Reams and reams of it.
As long as it's on paper they are delighted.

If something is written on paper it's not necessarily carried out.

The problem lies in management from top down.
I've seen it over the years.
The management of this place knew this was going on and joined in

It was bizarre, not to mention disturbing, to see a few people, seated at the table
over by the far wall, seeming to be carrying out reams and reams of paperwork.
They were totally ignoring the behaviour of the others towards those defenceless
women.

monflat

brooke 2 wrote: »

It was bizarre, not to mention disturbing, to see a few people, seated at the table
over by the far wall, seeming to be carrying out reams and reams of paperwork.
They were totally ignoring the behaviour of the others towards those defenceless
women.

Sure they were probably writing that ivy went out walking around the grounds.
Spent afternoon relaxing with staff supervision

However she displayed some challenging behaviour which was managed very well by those 5 staff present.

My god 5 staff.

jonon9

I hope these people never work again and made do thousands of hours unpaid community service. The HSE has alot to answer for.

foggy_lad

My name is URL wrote: »

Anyone watching it?

How come they're blurring out the faces of those beating and terrifying residents?

They don't blur faces on Crimecall etc... why do it here?

Mikros wrote: »

I'd imagine the staff faces are hidden as to not prejudice any future legal or disciplinary action. Any investigation would have to look at the full facts, not just those shown in a TV special. Shocking viewing though don't get me wrong.

jimmy180sx wrote: »

Why are they protecting this persons identity?

Turtwig wrote: »

By hiding their faces RTE are protected from being sued. Publicly revealing the identities would only serve to have one massive defamation suit on RTE and we know how they handle those!:rolleyes:

Just to explain why the workers had their faces blocked out in the film, It is because the residents of the home are considered to be "voiceless" in law and as such must be afforded the same rights to anonymity as a minor who is the victim of similar abuses which would include concealing the identities of any perpetrators in case their identity being known might identify any of the victims.

On another note about why those who have spoken out get demoted or moved to somewhere that means they must leave their job or just dismissed is because many of these places are run to suit the older staff who are set in stone in most of these places.

this kind of abuse in these institutions will continue because the staff who have worked in this area for years don't know any other way and there are so few prepared to work for the low wages offered in these places that there really is no other option.

brooke 2

Reported in some of tomorrow's papers that some of the people in that PT
programme have received death threats. Horrible though their treatment of
the residents was, I do not believe there should be a witch hunt against these
workers. Some of the worst culprits seem to have been products of an
educational and social system in which it was the norm for children to be
shouted at and beaten. They do not seem to have developed past this.
The culture of cruelty was so embedded in that unit that those higher up
in the system bear a huge part of the culpability for allowing it to continue.

christina_x

monflat wrote:

My god 5 staff.

I work in kids mental health. I can at times have 3hcas and be the only nurse on shift for 18 teenagers. the over-staffing is crazy. they have NO grounds in which to use under-staffed and over worked as an excuse, thats for sure!

Macavity.

brooke 2 wrote: »

Reported in some of tomorrow's papers that some of the people in that PT
programme have received death threats. Horrible though their treatment of
the residents was, I do not believe there should be a witch hunt against these
workers.

The threats have been all over Facebook. I have lost a lot of respect for many people due to some comments made. The idea of them being named and shamed is just ridiculous, and frankly dangerous. Although, the town is small so they will be easily identifiable anyway.

Not excusing what they did though, it was obviously shameful.

gctest50

HSE Terms and Conditions for
Health Care Assistants.



http://nurseoncall.ie/_fileupload/AWD%20Carer%20Protocol%20May%202012.pdf


.

obplayer

ScienceNerd wrote: »

Just watched it there on RTE player, absolutely harrowing stuff. I don't think the OPs use of the word 'torture' is out of place at all. When you think this is supposed to be their home, a place of safety, it really is torture. What the hell was going through that managers head when he came in and sat on the poor woman?

Enjoyment. Sadly there are many people who just enjoy hurting or at least humiliating others. The trick is to prevent them from being in a position to do so.

Littlekittylou

Rob Thomas wrote: »

This is shocking.

While they are probably correct to blur their faces to avoid prejudicing any future action, I think people familiar with the facility won't have a problem recognising voices and clothing.

They fear libel action. All they want to do is make it known they made an attempt to conceal the identities of these people.

It's a very shocking situation.

The system that allowed this to happen needs to change. There needs to be more openness and scrutiny. We should have learned form the way the church treated people in industrial schools.

Those involved should be dismissed and face charges immediately. They should face the full force of the law and that way we have the means to get to the full story and make changes.

Beat them up you only beat up one person and it continues.

Smidge

TheChizler wrote: »

In fairness to the HSE they seem to be taking this seriously. I saw an internal email yesterday from upper management asking all staff to watch the programme and encouraging them to whistle-blow if they ever witnessed something similar. There was talk of the possibility of implementing an RTÉ style undercover observation process, obviously there could be legal problems if that was operating on a large scale, data protection/consent etc.

I think really though the focus shouldn't be on catching these people out (obviously that has it's place still and should be part of the process) but implementing a system where things can never get to that level of abuse should be the priority. There have been multiple studies over the years that show that when people are put in a position of power over others it's almost inevitable that that power will be abused. Power needs to be removed from the abusers if any meaningful change is going to happen, how they do that I don't know. 'Power' can be influenced by different factors; the lack of repercussions due to low chances of getting caught either because the abuse can't be reported because of fear or disability, or because of inadequate supervision; people's total dependence on the abuser to name a couple.

In reference to HIQA, they're very good for checking standards for administration, hygiene, and hospital care. Very difficult to grade behavioural and care standards of staff, as these suffer from the observer affect, once the observees know there's someone watching their behaviour changes, so either watch without them knowing, or make them think they're being watched constantly for consistency.

As an aside, the attitude of middle management to HIQA, and some lower level staff, is amazing. There seems to be a culture that is convinced that HIQA is there purely to cause trouble.

I understand that there are good people in the sector. I have met a few in my time. What came across big time though was that when the good employees knew there were things that shouldn't have been happening going on, they stepped back(ime as they didn't want to lose their jobs through intimidation etc). In effect, they turned a blind eye. That, I have a problem with as well.
I can think of 6 people, off the top of my head, who "left" for personal reasons in the HSE service provider sector(medical and disability) as they were really good people but could no longer "fight the fight". And tbh I can't blame them. I tried to fight the fight myself. I lost miserably and very much to my detriment