Pink question

Slot Machine

sbsquarepants wrote: »

So what's your solution. Make everything in the world uniform to somehow foster individuality?
Do I really need to point out the problem there?

I'm not saying there's a solution, I'm just saying it's nonsense.

And do I really need to repeat what I said in my post for you to understand I'm not in favour of homogeneity? How many ways and times must I say it for you to accept that?

What I do want is people not to be assholes when it comes to someone else living their lives differently. Is it an unreasonable expectation? For the moment at least, perhaps. Do I have to abandon it because some people are incapable of envisioning anything other than what exists concretely in reality? Nope.

Custardpi

What I mean is that by buying any toys for children, whether that's in response to what they ask for or because you think a particular toy might suit their personality, develop certain skills etc you are "encouraging" children's play. Leaving them "to just get on with it themselves - as in to let them decide what to play with and how to play with it" in a real sense would mean simply giving them access to random materials/spaces & seeing what they make of them.

Shenshen

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I'm sorry, you're going to have to highlight the point for me.

Edit - I think I've got what you mean. Maybe I explained my self badly, when said I think we shouldn't encourage kids play, shouldn't direct it, or shouldn't steer it, would have been a better choice of words.

But by making half the toys on sale pink, and by instilling the notion that pink for only ever for girls, never ever for boys, we actually ARE directing and steering it.

DeadHand

Futile getting tetchy with toy companies and/or toy retailers for this. They don't operate to an idealology beyond the making of money, and rightly so. Gender segregation exists because there is a commercial demand for it, crazy pinkness in the toys aimed at girls exist because there is a commercial demand for it.

Is this really a problem at all?

I've never heard of a child being scarred for life as a result of their choice of toy being narrowed, I've never seen a male child being denigrated for enjoying what would generally be seen as a girl's toy or vice versa.

Kid's are kid's, they'll mess around with whatever's to hand. Broadly, boys will like stuff aimed at them and girls will like stuff aimed at them. This isn't the result of a sinister, patriarchal conspiracy to enforce strict gender roles on humanity, this is the benign result of a child's nature combined with simple marketing.

Are things really so infuriating as they are?

I simply see no reason to attempt to politicise something so innocent, harmless and ultimately trivial.

Is there anything in the world the more joyless elements of feminism won't try to turn into a battleground?

Potatoeman

Kids are cruel and anything that makes them standout will get them picked on.

I dont think making things gender neutral is a good thing either and kids can resent their parents for these kinds of things.

bodice ripper

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I'll wear the black, but the hair might be a problem!

rock that skullet

newport2

Slot Machine wrote: »

Ultimately, dress is just is arbitrary and can change radically over time and across cultures. Up until quite recently pink (being a shade of red - blood, anger, war, passion, all that) was seen as a masculine colour and blue (associated particularly with the Virgin Mary of Catholicism, symbolising purity) was seen as a feminine colour.

In fact, wedding dresses were traditionally blue - hence the rhyme has "something borrowed, something blue".

Go back far enough and pants were seen as effeminate. Want to know why so many historical portraits of men have their legs in focus and why the clothes emphasise them? Because for a long time having shapely legs was considered an ideal for men to aspire to.

Thus appeals to tradition are really quite facile - it's less "that's the way it's always been" and more "that's the way it's always been for me".

Interesting.

You could also say that toys have varied hugely over the years and do so across cultures too. There has been a lot of articles arguing that children should not be steered towards what they play with by gender and should decide for themselves what they play with. I've never seen a single article on the same argument for clothes. Why not? Is it because most adults want to dress differently by gender? But when it comes to toys it won't affect them, so no effort on their part is needed to be made? (I'm not disagreeing with anything you said, just curious)

sbsquarepants

Slot Machine wrote: »

I'm not saying there's a solution, I'm just saying it's nonsense.

And do I really need to repeat what I said in my post for you to understand I'm not in favour of homogeneity? How many ways and times must I say it for you to accept that?

What I do want is people not to be assholes when it comes to someone else living their lives differently. Is it an unreasonable expectation? For the moment at least, perhaps. Do I have to abandon it because some people are incapable of envisioning anything other than what exists concretely in reality? Nope.

There will always be assholes - that's just a fact of life unfortunately.

I think there is a certain element of putting the cart before the horse at play here. Generally speaking people do what they want and then "invent" their reasons to explain away their behaviour, it's generally not the other way around. Behaviour drives opinion, opinion rarely drives behaviour - surprisingly enough.

Kids pick on other kids not because of the colour of their toys but because kids, like adults can be fúcking assholes sometimes. The behaviour comes first the rationalisation follows. If all toys were grey, kids would still be nasty to other kids - it is unavoidable.

ceadaoin.

Shenshen wrote: »

But by making half the toys on sale pink, and by instilling the notion that pink for only ever for girls, never ever for boys, we actually ARE directing and steering it.

I think its a shame the some parents instill these notions in kids at such a young age and it seems that it is more rigid for boys. Playing is learning and if a toddler boy wants to play with a doll or even dress up as a princess I really don't see the problem. No one would bat an eyelid to see a little girl playing dress up as a pirate or a cowboy but would probably raise an eyebrow if they saw a little boy carrying a doll.

My daughter likes Disney princesses. She also likes thomas the tank engine, darth vader and building stuff with duplo. She hasn't a clue about boys and girls toys.

iDave wrote: »

Or maybe boys prefer certain things by biology and social pressure/gender roles aren't the all conquering forces they are made out to be. No small boy wants to pretend holding a bottle to a fake baby or wonder what dress looks best on Barbie.

Plenty of boys do like those things.

RobYourBuilder

even dress up as a princess I really don't see the problem.

I could see a couple. You realise that raising a child isn't a little experiment? That how you bring them up will help mould what type of person they grow up to be?

sbsquarepants

Like what?

ceadaoin.

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

I could see a couple. You realise that raising a child isn't a little experiment? That how you bring them up will help mould what type of person they grow up to be?

What problems can you see? I'd like to raise an independent child who is confident in themselves and their choices. A 2 year old boy dressing up like a princess or playing with a doll because he wants to isn't going to scar him for life. I don't see how that means I see raising a child as an experiment? I'm not advocating forcing boys to play with dolls or anything like that. Simply that young children should be allowed to play how they want.

looksee

Grandchild number one was not going to be dressed in pink, her mother said. She found this was fairly difficult but mostly achieved it. Fast forward 5 years. Little girl adores pink. She likes wearing pink, anything pink, loves princesses and dressing up in pretty clothes. Don't know how long it will last but for the moment, pink is it. Grandchild number two is obviously younger but does not care what she wears, plays with baby dolls and cars. Her favourite 'toy' at the moment is a length of yarn or string that can be the lasso from some cowboy character cartoon. She is totally uninterested in pink.

I personally find the pink-fest a bit cloying, but I don't think it matters. What I do find a bit unnerving is the sheer quantity of bits of expensive plastic that can - and will - be purchased for children, most of which will end up as a kind of soup at the bottom of the toy box.

Custardpi

ceadaoin. wrote: »

What problems can you see? I'd like to raise an independent child who is confident in themselves and their choices. A 2 year old boy dressing up like a princess or playing with a doll because he wants to isn't going to scar him for life. I don't see how that means I see raising a child as an experiment? I'm not advocating forcing boys to play with dolls or anything like that. Simply that young children should be allowed to play how they want.

To be fair I think RYB is probably concerned about the possibility of bullying by other children. A normal, happy go lucky kid who on a whim wants to wear a dress may end up labelled by the other children as strange/effeminate for wearing girls clothes if he was above a certain age (I don't think 3 year olds would bat an eyelid) which could affect his confidence in later years. It may of course turn out the opposite i.e. teaching him to stand up to people who give him crap (the "Boy Named Sue" effect), but it's certainly something to consider. I wouldn't put many of the toys currently labelled as boys or girls (girls lego, ffs! ) in this category though.

RobYourBuilder

ceadaoin. wrote: »

What problems can you see?

Him being bullied for a start.

seenitall

looksee wrote: »

Grandchild number one was not going to be dressed in pink, her mother said. She found this was fairly difficult but mostly achieved it. Fast forward 5 years. Little girl adores pink. She likes wearing pink, anything pink, loves princesses and dressing up in pretty clothes. Don't know how long it will last but for the moment, pink is it. Grandchild number two is obviously younger but does not care what she wears, plays with baby dolls and cars. Her favourite 'toy' at the moment is a length of yarn or string that can be the lasso from some cowboy character cartoon. She is totally uninterested in pink.

I personally find the pink-fest a bit cloying, but I don't think it matters. What I do find a bit unnerving is the sheer quantity of bits of expensive plastic that can - and will - be purchased for children, most of which will end up as a kind of soup at the bottom of the toy box.

LOL, so funny and so true!!

I, wanting to be a progressive type of parent, used to dress my toddler in all neutral colours, and she had way more cute toddler jeans and "boy"-coloured and sloganed tops than she had dresses at age 2. By age 3, (that is - as soon as she became old enough to have some input into her clothes), though, it became a different story. Pink just started being the order of the day with her, and all things girly likewise.

When I was a child, I was very much a tomboy, didn't care for dresses or dolls or pink or frilly things. I just wanted to be outside and climb trees and go on different adventures with boys. But that was me, and as soon as I realised my daughter is a real, dyed-in-the-wool, girlie girl, I started heeding her own choices.

I would be doing the same for any child though, heed their own choices, whatever they may be, and however "unconventional" they may be (within reason, of course!). Part of our responsibilities as parents is to ensure that our children are acclimatised to their social environment. But another part of our responsibilities as parents is to ensure our children feel cherished and accepted with all their tastes, their choices and their true natures - and that has to come from us as parents, long before it will come from "society".

TheOtherBloke

Pink is just another colour of course.. But if ya ask most lads, they will say it symbolises girls or what have ya. Its just the way society's brought them up. And I dont think this view will change soon.

ceadaoin.

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

Him being bullied for a start.

Well, as said above, for a young kid then that probably won't be an issue. As he gets older and more used to social norms, he probably wouldnt want to anyway. If he did I'd like to think I'd be fully supportive if he understood that he might get some comments and still wanted to do it. Honestly though, I don't think my partner would allow that!

TheOtherBloke

Pink is just another colour of course.. But if ya ask most lads, they will say it symbolises girls or what have ya. Its just the way society's brought them up. And I dont think this view will change soon.

Shenshen

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

Him being bullied for a start.

Here's a question :

How come a boy dressing up as a princess needs to fear bullying, and a girl dressing up as a cowboy would be perfectly normal?

I know it's reality, and it happens to be the exact aspect of reality I wanted to highlight by setting up this thread.
But why? What's the cause of it?

bodice ripper

Shenshen wrote: »

Here's a question :

How come a boy dressing up as a princess needs to fear bullying, and a girl dressing up as a cowboy would be perfectly normal?

I know it's reality, and it happens to be the exact aspect of reality I wanted to highlight by setting up this thread.
But why? What's the cause of it?

Because wanting to be boyish is expected, wanting to be girly is shameful.

RobYourBuilder

Shenshen wrote: »

Here's a question :

How come a boy dressing up as a princess needs to fear bullying, and a girl dressing up as a cowboy would be perfectly normal?

I know it's reality, and it happens to be the exact aspect of reality I wanted to highlight by setting up this thread.
But why? What's the cause of it?

Having a daughter that is a bit of a Tomboy isn't that bad. Having a son that thinks he's a princess on the otherhand..

Custardpi

All things considered, being a princess is a bit crap for either gender really. They don't really do much of any worth. Kate Midleton's main purpose is to look pretty & produce an heir. Hardly something to aspire to.

nicki11

Adults are the main issue though kids don't really seem to care unless they were raised to beleive in gender stereotypes, my Dad thought it was strange when his brothers sons wanted all pink toys for Christmas including a kitchenete and cash register but my uncles issue was whether it would make his kids feel insecure because there was only girls playing with them on the box (they ended up setting it up sans the box). While my Aunts ex yelled at me (when I was 8) for letting his son play with my horses and pink carriage and my dad got pissed at him. Its one thing to say things should be equal but when kids get yelled/ stared at for playing with something or wearing something it does get to you, at least your bones will heal, where as so many boys are afraid of being called efeminate that they make fun of other boys and call them fgot and that is a real issue

catallus

Interesting, if only tangentially related; http://i.imgur.com/0ke9qlu.png

Annasopra

iDave wrote: »

Maybe boys just DONT want to play with fecking dolls regardless of their colour

Maybe some do!!!!!!

Annasopra

AnimalChin wrote: »

Boys and girls like different things in general.

Do they?

Annasopra

iDave wrote: »

Or maybe boys prefer certain things by biology and social pressure/gender roles aren't the all conquering forces they are made out to be. No small boy wants to pretend holding a bottle to a fake baby or wonder what dress looks best on Barbie.

What evidence have you of this biological determination?

Annasopra

AnimalChin wrote: »

So misguided.

No. It's not a girly pursuit, but at that age (around 4, 5) boys and girls generally only hang out with the same sex (excluding cousins etc) on a daily basis and usually have the same interests - at the start - before they gain a sense of their own identity.

It's highly unlikely a boy will want a play kitchen set - I've personally never known one to want one - they usually go for sports gear, bikes, video games - that kind of thing. Things boys at that ages veer to.

And don't tell me they only veer that way because they're told - that's utter rubbish!

I was never told to like a certain thing. I was a boy who hung around with boys and started to play football because I watched it with my dad on the TV and wanted to emulate the players.

Same when I watched Commando and wanted to pretend I was Arnold Schwarzenegger with a toy gun.

I also saw Tootsie, but dressing up in girls clothes just never appealed to me. Sorry.

What proof have you that boys and girls will aleays choose certain toys and why on earth is a toy kitchen wrong to give a boy?

catallus

Children should be seen and not heard!

Custardpi

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

What evidence have you of this biological determination?

My understanding from what I've read on the subject (plenty of videos discussing it online also) is that both nature & nurture are now regarded as playing important roles in the development of childhood personalities & preferences. Do you believe that it's 100% nurture, i.e. that biology plays zero role in how children behave & that everything is down to socialisation?

fran17

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

What evidence have you of this biological determination?

Listen Joey we all know you mean well and are a fighter for equality for all but speaking personally,and that's all I can speak for,you don't debate the biology or sexual orientation of young children.I don't know if your a parent or not but trust me.

Annasopra

fran17 wrote: »

Listen Joey we all know you mean well and are a fighter for equality for all but speaking personally,and that's all I can speak for,you don't debate the biology or sexual orientation of young children.I don't know if your a parent or not but trust me.

Why dont you? There are plenty of examples young transgender children and intersex children who were butchered at birth.

I think I'll trust my own instincts and human rights on this one.

Don Kedick

Ah come on, we've all tried on a pair of pink knickers at some stage in our lives.

Annasopra

Don Kedick wrote: »

Ah come on, we've all tried on a pair of pink knickers at some stage in our lives.

Speak for yourself therr!

bodice ripper

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Why dont you? There are plenty of examples young transgender children and intersex children who were butchered at birth.

I think I'll trust my own instincts and human rights on this one.

not a good argument, its the same one that people who don't want gay people to adopt use....

catallus

Don Kedick wrote: »

Ah come on, we've all tried on a pair of pink knickers at some stage in our lives.

Pink eyeshadow doesn't impress anybody though

Don Kedick

catallus wrote: »

Pink eyeshadow doesn't impress anybody though

You usually end up with blackness under your eye!

catallus

Don Kedick wrote: »

You usually end up with blackness under your eye!

BUT I JUST WANTED TO BE PRETTY

fran17

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Why dont you? There are plenty of examples young transgender children and intersex children who were butchered at birth.

I think I'll trust my own instincts and human rights on this one.

I'm not going to get into a debate on it,and you could call me a hurler on the ditch here and that would be fine,but I don't take this forum very serious anymore.Lets just call it social awareness or lets just call it giving a child a childhood.By all means trust your instincts and human rights,we all have them.

Don Kedick

catallus wrote: »

BUT I JUST WANTED TO BE PRETTY

You were pretty, they just didn't fancy ya.

catallus

Don Kedick wrote: »

You were pretty, they just didn't fancy ya.

But I had so much love to give!

It's not fair.

Annasopra

bodice ripper wrote: »

not a good argument, its the same one that people who don't want gay people to adopt use....

Meh.... I'm not going to trust Fran on a whim.

bodice ripper

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Meh.... I'm not going to trust Fran on a whim.

Oh, I wouldn't either. But i would avoid using "trusting your instincts" as an argument. Seen it used before to justify being an asshat.

GalwayGuitar

Shenshen wrote: »

'Tis the season .... the season where people like me, more or less grown up these days but without offspring of my own, have to venture forth into various toy shops to find gifts for the little ones our friends and family have produced.

And while I usually find that highly annoying in itself, this year the pinkness in the girls' sections really, really got on my nerves. Maybe it was my innner feminist, or maybe it was my inner grinch, but I just hated this gender-separation. And when I walked into the boys' section, was I greeted with blue in all its blueness? No. Colours in abundance for the little lads,

So now I'm wondering. What is the pink doing?
Is it, as some schools of thought would have it, limiting girls? Is it reducing their choices to anything to do with beauty, dresses, dolls and unicorns? I somehow doubt that.
Yes, most girls love pink. But does that mean they'd reject a toy for being of a different colour? Not likely.
Most girls would have no problem going into the boys' sections and finding something there that they like.

What the pink is really doing, in my opinion, is making sure the boys stay away from toys that society decided are "girls only". The colour is a boy-repelent.
It's not there to make sure girls stick to their gender roles, it's there to make sure the boys don't stray.
And that's annoying me even more.
We've spent decades trying to achieve gender equality, but we're forgetting about equality for boys. Girls are encouraged to take part in activities which previously would have been a boy's domain, but the boys are still stuck in the same old roles.

It's a disgrace, and it needs to stop.
Any suggestions on how we can get boys to step into the forbidden worlds of the pink toys?

White girl problems.

RobYourBuilder

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

There are plenty of examples young transgender children.

Kids cannot be transgender, nor should parents be putting that seed in their head. Identifying as trans is an adult decision, not a decision an underdeveloped child can make.

Annasopra

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

Kids cannot be transgender, nor should parents be putting that seed in their head. Identifying as trans is an adult decision, not a decision an underdeveloped child can make.

Who said? Fair enough if this is just your opinion but dont state it as fact.

suicide_circus

It's only when I read threads like this that I realise what absolute facists my parents were for buying me a toy train set for Christmas rather than a pink barbie doll.

Gender studies graduates need to keep themselves in work too I suppose.

RDM_83 again

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Who said? Fair enough if this is just your opinion but dont state it as fact.

Actually thats an interesting question which i am sure Links could answer, but in terms of neurology in a pre-puberty child is there an identifiable difference, I mean the secondary sexual characteristics haven't developed yet so perhaps the equivalent hasn't occurred in terms of the brain?

Also if your using the argument that it makes a difference if a kid is trans your basically admitting there is sex* determined characteristics that are exhibited in childhood.

In terms of the blue vs pink, does it matter? If your bothered couldn't you find most toys in a more neutral or "real" colour e.g A red Massey Fergusson tractor toy.
Also if a child wants to play a certain way they will, I know I made a fairly funky (and mildly dangerous) sword from hammering a piece of pipe and there was many many sticks that were guns. The thing is though as an adult/teenager I never considered joining the army or liked the idea of actually fighting.

*Using Sex rather than gender to refer to the "sex" of the brain rather than outward physical characteristics.

Mink

My nearly 2.5yr old son is getting a play kitchen from santy. It's one made by tefal, gender neutral colours I guess, and came recommended from friends who'd gotten one for their boys and girls.

My husband has finally come round to the idea but we are apparently to call it a "chef station".

I told people in work what he was getting and was laughed at. I got the idea from the fact that he was playing happily with one in playgroup and he likes to help me cook.

In this day and age he will not be moving out of my house until he can cook, clean, iron, wash his own clothes etc. basic life skills that all start with role play as a small kid. He won't be waited on by me or any other woman... Or man.

He loves princess Sofia and doc mcstuffins as much as Mickey Mouse and all the rest and all power to him.