Unable to pay bank loan

thecreek

I'm wondering if anyone has any advice on this situation.
I have been approached by Cabot Financial who inform me they have bought an Ulster bank debt which is €30k.
Unfortunately this amount relates to a business loan which went bust 5yrs ago.
Since then I have struggled with loans, creditors, solicitors, finance companies etc.
Over the past 5 yrs I have managed to pay off some smaller creditors but usually this is just robbing Peter to pay Paul which means I end up in arrears with rent or cant pay household bills, ESB, heating etc.
Also I have 2 existing court instalment orders which are €10 per week each & both of which dip in & out of arrears.
I have been working for just over a yr. on min wage & also I am currently studying which takes any disposable income.

I contacted Cabot to inform them of my situation but they're representative told me the company doesn't care, as I'm not in a position to make any payments & this account is being referred to they're solicitor end of conversation.
I asked if they would consider putting the account on hold for a period until my circumstances change but they wont consider this.

At this stage I'm tired of taking 1 step forward & 3 back.
I cant afford this at the moment, I'm fed up being on the poor pile & I'm afraid that if they pursue this account I will have to give up collage which obviously means I'm stuck in a dead end min. wage job.

Has anyone had any experience with Cabot & how aggressive are they likely to be????
I haven't got the energy to argue or deal with another company only hell bent on retrieving money regardless of the effects on my well being & sanity!!!
Am I so screwed that insolvency is my only option?

Thanks for reading & any comments or advice is totally appreciated.

Joshua5

thecreek wrote: »

I'm wondering if anyone has any advice on this situation.
I have been approached by Cabot Financial who inform me they have bought an Ulster bank debt which is €30k.
Unfortunately this amount relates to a business loan which went bust 5yrs ago.
Since then I have struggled with loans, creditors, solicitors, finance companies etc.
Over the past 5 yrs I have managed to pay off some smaller creditors but usually this is just robbing Peter to pay Paul which means I end up in arrears with rent or cant pay household bills, ESB, heating etc.
Also I have 2 existing court instalment orders which are €10 per week each & both of which dip in & out of arrears.
I have been working for just over a yr. on min wage & also I am currently studying which takes any disposable income.

I contacted Cabot to inform them of my situation but they're representative told me the company doesn't care, as I'm not in a position to make any payments & this account is being referred to they're solicitor end of conversation.
I asked if they would consider putting the account on hold for a period until my circumstances change but they wont consider this.

At this stage I'm tired of taking 1 step forward & 3 back.
I cant afford this at the moment, I'm fed up being on the poor pile & I'm afraid that if they pursue this account I will have to give up collage which obviously means I'm stuck in a dead end min. wage job.

Has anyone had any experience with Cabot & how aggressive are they likely to be????
I haven't got the energy to argue or deal with another company only hell bent on retrieving money regardless of the effects on my well being & sanity!!!
Am I so screwed that insolvency is my only option?

Thanks for reading & any comments or advice is totally appreciated.

Just wondering what was the business that went bust? Try not to stress about those guys too much. If you haven't got it then you haven't got it.

smcgiff

If you've been to court, you've been through this already.

I'm assuming the business was not a limited company. However, this sounds like an unsecured loan.

If you've already entered into a payment plan then it's not like they can get extra money out of you. It could be a case of letting them whistle.

Have they actually threatened anything specific?

ScouseMouse

Just an unqualified observation. Its all hot air. What are they going to be able to do to you? You already have court arrangements for debt so whats another one? You can only do your best and if a court sees you dont have it, the worst that can happen is they see what you can pay and you get a third arrangement.

If you cannot keep up with what you have, what are they going to do to you?

Good luck.

thecreek

Thanks guys,
your right....I haven't got it & can easily prove it.
I'm just worried about another judgement or worse a committal order.

I was a small builder, soul trader with a business that I started in 2007- just before the recession started!!!


"If you've been to court, you've been through this already.

I'm assuming the business was not a limited company. However, this sounds like an unsecured loan.

If you've already entered into a payment plan then it's not like they can get extra money out of you. It could be a case of letting them whistle.

Have they actually threatened anything specific? "

SMCIFF with ref to the above, your right it wasn't a limited company & an unsecured loan- I don't even own any assets.


They didn't even ask me about my income or circumstances just if I'm not prepared to make payments as of this afternoon its been forwarded to a solicitor- end of!

The other thing that I'm wondering is- they don't actually have my address just my former address which is my parents house.
Can my parents just tell them that I don't live there & they don't want any of my post sent to the address?
After that they only have a ready to go mobile no.

So Cabot bought an account which no payments have been made since Oct 2010 with contact details that are also over 4 years old belonging to a guy that they know absolutely nothing about........I'm thinking this was bought for nothing!!

Savage93

thecreek wrote: »

I'm wondering if anyone has any advice on this situation.
I have been approached by Cabot Financial who inform me they have bought an Ulster bank debt which is €30k.
Unfortunately this amount relates to a business loan which went bust 5yrs ago.
Since then I have struggled with loans, creditors, solicitors, finance companies etc.
Over the past 5 yrs I have managed to pay off some smaller creditors but usually this is just robbing Peter to pay Paul which means I end up in arrears with rent or cant pay household bills, ESB, heating etc.
Also I have 2 existing court instalment orders which are €10 per week each & both of which dip in & out of arrears.
I have been working for just over a yr. on min wage & also I am currently studying which takes any disposable income.


I contacted Cabot to inform them of my situation but they're representative told me the company doesn't care, as I'm not in a position to make any payments & this account is being referred to they're solicitor end of conversation.
I asked if they would consider putting the account on hold for a period until my circumstances change but they wont consider this.

At this stage I'm tired of taking 1 step forward & 3 back.
I cant afford this at the moment, I'm fed up being on the poor pile & I'm afraid that if they pursue this account I will have to give up collage which obviously means I'm stuck in a dead end min. wage job.

Has anyone had any experience with Cabot & how aggressive are they likely to be????
I haven't got the energy to argue or deal with another company only hell bent on retrieving money regardless of the effects on my well being & sanity!!!
Am I so screwed that insolvency is my only option?

Thanks for reading & any comments or advice is totally appreciated.

If you genuinely have nothing , no means with which to service or repay this debt and they have no security provide them with all this information and politely tell them to f**k off. Chance are if the original debt was €30k then Cabot bought it for €1,500- €2,000
Best of luck

smcgiff

You might want to consider asking your parents sending official looking post 'return to sender no longer at this address'. Likewise with registered post.

How tied to your mobile number are you? Might be time for a change.

pedroeibar1

Hiding is not a solution. OP does not say what the total debt is, nor if he has met MABS, which he should do.
Forget about a committal order, that is most unlikely to happen if he manages things properly. OP, do not ignore stuff, that is what gets you into deep water.
I don’t know much about Cabot – but expect that they are like all those other bottom-feeder companies that buy debt cheaply and then sweat the most they can get from the debtors. For the type of money mentioned he is dealing with junior juniors, I wouldn’t worry about them.
I think the insolvency route is possibly too severe in his situation unless the total debt is a multiple of the 30k mentioned (personal circumstances, age, family commitments etc. all need to be factored in. before any decision could be made.)
An instalment order is not the end of the world, and if the two at €10 each p.w. are too much, he can go back and ask for a reduction. He really needs to prepare a detailed statement of means, then go to court and apply for a ‘variation order’. The judge will look at assets/ income/outgoings and hopefully reduce the instalment orders. Armed with that he can then meet Cabot, and tell them he is trying to get back on his feet, has huge debts and already has had inst. orders varied downwards, so they have no hope of any recovery. Remember that judgements against him are to be avoided if possible, think of the future. He needs professional advice.

@OP - The important thing is your health, your future and completing your studies. Hard to concentrate on the later with this s#ite going on, so full marks to you for enduring and do keep it up!

thecreek

Pedroibar1 thanks for your reply & I totally agree with your advice.
With the previous 2 court cases as I had no experience of this kind of situation I did ignore it until it snow balled into a huge deal, 1 solicitor has a committal order which they wave at me every time my €10 per week slips into arrears.

In this situation over the past year any time Ulster bank have appointed a third party debt collector I have requested to deal with Ulster bank directly which both 3rd party & Ulster bank refused to do.

I have also tried to explain to the bank that I'm not trying to avoid the debt that I'm just not in a position to pay anything at the moment.

Also you are totally right this kind of stress takes a heavy toll on health with constant criticism & living in a constantly negative environment!!!!!

I'm going to deal with this head on & call them again on Monday, I'll ask them in they're experience what happens in this kind of situation, the time frames involved, what kind of outcome they expect or hope for.

sconhome

thecreek, sorry to hear of your troubles.

As pointed out if you don't have it, you don't have it. With the experience behind you on the other accounts, you have little to fear going to court and having another payment to tip away at.

Re these finance companies they play hardball. Are they ringing you and telling you this or writing to you? I'd second the advise for your home address to refuse any post for the while.

You have to look after yourself first and not let the stress bring you down. As for the asshat threatening you over €10 per week. You can only do your best and once your lifestyle is not unreasonable you do what you can. When you call them get as much info as possible, outline your position (without giving any details as they probably can reverse check a change of address via Credit Bureau) and say what you can do, if anything.

Remember the call is likely to be recorded an no harm having a little dictaphone recorder yourself. If they say the call is being recorded, you say likewise and it may be admissible as evidence that you were being reasonable in any offer you suggest to resolve the debt.

Have you spoken with MABS? I believe they are good at helping people through these situations.

delahuntv

don't call them - you'll be talking to a spotty little call centre person who reels off a script they have in front of them. They are trained not to care about feelings and they are themselves badgered into getting results.

Ulster bank have sold the debt to cabot which they are entitled to do. Deep in the T&c's you'll find you have no choice but to deal with them.

They will tell you it "will go to solicitors" - basically it is passed to the next desk as they own Belgard Solicitors, so I wouldn't do overly concerned at this stage.

What they know and what the ordinary punter does not know is a judge HATES when a case is taken unnecessarily, so what you need to do is WRITE (not call) to them and send the letter by registered post.

In that letter explain what the debt was for, explain you were in the building game, explain that you already have a court orders on 2 other debts and find them hard to service (give them the court record numbers).

Explain that you currently are paid minimum wage and studying to try and move into a new career.

Tell them that at present there is not one euro you can provide to them and that you will review it in 6 months and hopefully you may at that time be in a better paid job (plenty of construction jobs coming next year) and may be able to commence a payment plan.

Once you send that letter, you should relax -maybe get a different mobile number to stop them calling.

Then look at your options under the 2012 insolvency act - going bust / bankrupt is NOT a sin and not to be ashamed of. Very simply, you collect all your debts together - hand it over to an insolvency practitioner. He/she comes up with a payment plan for what you can AFFORD over the next 5 years - once the majority of creditors agree, and then after that you are debt free.

Basically, the creditors will have 2 choice - go with this and get something or you go bankrupt and they get nothing - hence once the insolvency practitioner does his/her report, they all tend to sign up.

More information here -

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/money_and_tax/personal_finance/debt/personal_insolvency/

Also, once you sign up to the service, the creditors by law CANNOT make contact with you.

I think you should seriously consider this as you will take 3 steps forward and never take a step back again.

thecreek

Guys,
thank you for your advice, its very helpful.

Are we basically saying that if I cant afford this & can prove that fact even if Belgard Solicitors bring me to court the judge is most likely going to tell them to sling it???

I have been told that what ever disposable income must be divided up proportionately e.g. most to the largest, least to the smallest.
Since they are my largest creditor they would be entitled to the largest share of disposable available.

Also how would another solicitor have a committal order which they love to remind me of?
Admittedly I did bury my head in the sand while this case was in court as I had become quite ill as a result of the stress so I'm not sure what actually happened at this time just that the day before the court case they were seeking a committal ( prison ) but the morning of the case said they would accept my proposal of €10 per week.
When I say "they" I mean a friendly contractor who over charged me for work then gazumped me on the contract then brought me to court for the €2300 that I couldn't afford to pay him. -Nice Guy!!!!!

As I understand it if I fail to pay an instalment order I can be sent to prison?
Any body know anything about this ???

Also a couple of you have asked about MABS, I did go in 2010 but I was told that as it was business debt they couldn't do anything as they only dealt with personal debt.

delahuntv

Not saying judge will tell them to sling - but if you show you have been honest and upfront, then this will always be in your favour.

I really think your best option is to look at one of the insolvency options - it immediately transfers your problems to a professional and creditors are not permitted to make any further contact with you.

pedroeibar1

As I said earlier you need professional advice and before that a chat with MABS will really help. If you were a sole trader it is not a business debt.

In lay terms (and this is not legal advice) looking at the debt recovery process, the creditor obtains judgement, executes it (i.e. the sheriff goes out to collect) and if he gets nothing the creditor then applies to the court for an instalment order whereby the court orders you to repay the amount by instalments. Because you ignored that process the creditor got an order against you whereby the court ordered you to repay €10 per week. Had you been there to explain your situation it probably would have been less. As you cannot pay that amount you need to go back to court and apply for a variation order to reduce the amount. Nobody goes to prison for debt, they go there because they disobey a court order. Judges are humane, most will be on your side if you are making an effort to pay and would be understanding of your predicament. If the weekly sum is varied down to a small amount and you pay it the creditor cannot pester you and will go away and let you get on with your life.

So, as I said before, prepare a statement of means (assets & income and outgoings) even if it is on the back of an envelope and then go to MABS. Be aware that it is an offence to file a false statement of affairs. Tackle this s#it head on, put it in a box and clear the head for better stuff.

pedronomix

@OP, well done for posting this and I do hope that the very exercise of writing it down helps you deal with it with a clearer mind. Unburdening in this way is good for you and your health and you have garnered the respect of many on here, there, but for luck, go I and many others. Your plan of further education is a real credit to you, your resilience and determination to get back on your feet is truly admirable.

Pedroeibar has given you great advice, to which I can add nothing other than to support it.
I would be confident that you will get over this and get an opportunity to fulfil your own ambitions.

col.in.Cr

Some other person wrote here about how aggressive cabot can be:

http://www.tirnasaor.com/forum/topics/my-adventures-with-cabot?commentId=3214356%3AComment%3A79547

Graham

col.in.Cr wrote: »

Some other person wrote here about how aggressive cabot can be:

http://www.tirnasaor.com/forum/topics/my-adventures-with-cabot?commentId=3214356%3AComment%3A79547

Full of freeman claptrap so it's hardly surprising they were less than friendly.

Qualitymark

This isn't advice; I'm not qualified to offer advice on this. But as a sole trader, are you a member of ISME, the Irish Small and Medium Enterprises association? They may be able to advise you.
http://isme.ie
(You may not be able to afford to join right now, but they might be able to give you advice in any case; I don't know, but it's worth a try. They would have more expertise and experience in small business debt than MABS.)
Personally - again, not advice, just my personal view - I wouldn't be inclined to approach the company that's bought your debt in a rude way. I'd be polite. If I were brought to court I'd have all my figures on income and outgoings and what you've already paid back clearly written out so the judge can understand that you're gradually paying back what you owe.
Have you looked into the possibility of going to Britain and becoming bankrupt there, with their easier rules and shorter time to be able to trade again?
I hope you work this out well and happily and you are soon back in business.

delahuntv

Qualitymark wrote: »

Have you looked into the possibility of going to Britain and becoming bankrupt there, with their easier rules and shorter time to be able to trade again?
I hope you work this out well and happily and you are soon back in business.

The new irish bankruptcy regulations are better than the uk ones as it has different solutions depending on level of debt.

Even full bankruptcy is now better here - you can restart the minute you sign the documents. Whilst max period is 3 years, this can and seems to be regularly reduced with agreement of creditors.

The other options for people with smaller debt such as op are very fair. But the best part us that creditors cannot legally make any contact with you and the system allows for you to live a half decent life during the period.

Hell, ltd companies go bust every daycand the directors can walk away once they haven't been fraudulent - sole traders can now do the same.

thecreek

Thanks to everyone for they're advice & support.
It helps a lot putting it out there & reading the advice.

Delahuntv I think your right it looks like time to approach the insolvency board.

I don't see why a company like Cabot can buy a debt from Ulster Bank for pittance then pursue me aggressively for the full balance!
Quite obviously if I did have any means I would have settled or entered an arrangement with Ulster Bank at some stage over the past 4 yrs.

My other point is that Ulster Bank would be aware of the history on this account as in they would have seen how the account was functioning as the Countries economy also dived.
At local level the manager knew me & would be aware of mine & other customers circumstances, I don't drive a shinny new BMW past the front door of the bank or anything!!!!

The bank would be quite confident that I am on my uppers & not living any kind of expensive luxuriant lifestyle,
I would be confident that they know this as they didn't pursue me through the courts for this amount themselves.
The fact that they sold this on to a bunch of vultures & thousands of other accounts means they have wrote these accounts off & decided to take the hit.

Lets face it an account that hasn't functioned for over 4 yrs. Cabot don't even have an up to date address for me all evidence suggests this guy is broke, even the phone no. associated with account had been disconnected!!!!- it could only be bought for a pittance.
If my account was bought for €1000, even if the bank sold 30,000 similar accounts they have only received €30,000-the balance on 1 loan!!!!!!

So the only motive for selling these accounts to the vultures besides receiving a little pocket change is to give once loyal, once profitable customers 2 fingers !!!

If that's the attitude that exists in these financial institutions an unfortunate account holder trying to claw they're way back to normality has no hope!!!!!!

delahuntv

The other side of the argument is many dishonest types pretend they have nothing and tried to scam thr banks. Cabot and others basically go hard in and build a file - you may find they have essentially already written you off.

Think back just 2 years and the number of strategic defaulters on mortgages - these people have suddenly found the means of paying because suddenly their property is worth more than the mortgage again. So never take these things personally - they don't know you from Adam.

The insolvency service is there for people like you - it proves you don't have the ability to pay, allows you pay what you can afford for set period and the balance written off.

Btw - I don't have any connection with anyone in it, but a neighbour has availed of it and he went from a wreck of a person to a totally new person in less than 2 weeks. He'll still be paying for another couple of years, but he has been able to concentrate on work again and I'd guess this Christmas will be his best one for many years.

Qualitymark

One big problem with Irish insolvency is that certain professionals (for instance, lawyers) can't ever work again if they go through it, meaning that they're in a stranglehold of debt with no escape. It's one reason for an unspoken-of spate of suicides in the legal profession.

smcgiff

thecreek wrote: »

If my account was bought for €1000, even if the bank sold 30,000 similar accounts they have only received €30,000-the balance on 1 loan!!!!!!

It's likely your loan was bought within a bundle of other loans. Nothing personal really. And you might want to recheck your math above.

Duckett

Like others above I also encourage you to take your case to MABS. Taking professional advice will help relieve the stress.

Qualitymark

Duckett wrote: »

Like others above I also encourage you to take your case to MABS. Taking professional advice will help relieve the stress.

The OP has already said MABS said they couldn't help because it's a business loan.

Kristopherus

Qualitymark wrote: »

The OP has already said MABS said they couldn't help because it's a business loan.

Correct, but the business is history and the banks certainly regard the debt as personal.

OP, I would strongly advise you to go to MABS again. Tell them the story as you've told here and bring a full statement of income and expense. On the Insolvency Service, just be aware that this service costs money, money that you may not afford. They look for sizeable deposits from applicants for their service - €1000+ is fairly regular. MABS is free.

pedroeibar1

...........the business is history and the banks certainly regard the debt as personal.

Forget the bank, they are out of the picture, OP deals with the debt vulture with input/advice from Mabs. OP has been told this often enough. OP was a sole trader (post#5) so it is debatable whether or not his borrowings can be classified as “business” debt. Even if it is, MABS is still the way to go as they will refer him to CAVA. See here.


Filing for insolvency is a nuclear option and it is not an appropriate suggestion on the information available.

thecreek

Guys thank you once again for your advice & contributions to this discussion, this has been a very helpful discussion.
As Pedronomix pointed out its important to unburden- which since 1st posting this I very much agree with!!!!!!

Also yes people ...................................... If my account was bought for €1000, even if the bank sold 30,000 similar accounts they have only received €30,000-the balance on 1 loan!!!!!! ....................................................

I did make this very stupid error in a simple calculation-
Always stop to check your figures when in the middle of a rant..........!!!!

delahuntv

Kristopherus wrote: »

Correct, but the business is history and the banks certainly regard the debt as personal.

OP, I would strongly advise you to go to MABS again. Tell them the story as you've told here and bring a full statement of income and expense. On the Insolvency Service, just be aware that this service costs money, money that you may not afford. They look for sizeable deposits from applicants for their service - €1000+ is fairly regular. MABS is free.

Please don't give incorrect information.

Firstly, there is a long waiting list for MABS
Secondly, MABS is very much a budgeting service
thirdly, it IS a business debt the OP has even though the business is closed.

Fourthly, Except for full bankruptcy (not for the OP) the insolvency service is FREE. https://www.isi.gov.ie/en/ISI/Pages/fees

Fifthly, Any fees for a practitioner are usually included into the payment plan. Some practitioners may request an initial fee, but its €100 - €200 and many don't.

delahuntv

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Filing for insolvency is a nuclear option and it is not an appropriate suggestion on the information available.

Big difference between filing for insolvency and going for one of the options available from insolvency service of Ireland.

They have 4 options depending on the debt and different circumstances.

Anything from 5k unsecured up to the millions.

All info is here https://www.isi.gov.ie/en/ISI/Pages/Possible_Scenarios

All 'll say is I know someone who went this route earlier this year and he was a total wreck and he is now back to his normal self. He was in the motor trade - he's now back in the motor trade. He is NOT bankrupt - he availed of one of the other plans as he owed about 100k to several companies.

I don't know what he has ended up paying, but I do know he is happy again.

Inga Smirnova

Best of Luck!